I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board directly.



Keith





Hi Alix,



Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.



Cheers Rosie



I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and AC.

I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where, book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"



The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.



Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour of the event.



It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.



Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success of women's events in Australia.



Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying that it is of less significance to know who the best female player is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in the world is, is truly demeaning for women.



Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to expect that the female membership is represented by events that address their needs.



I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the success of the single **** events.



Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do whenever we can.



World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner of that particular event at that time.



If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the event would still be held and the winner would still be the World Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because he was not playing.



As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed up by appropriate action.



Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities relevant to as many female participants as possible.



That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World Champion as I'm sure many people do.


Rosie

I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board directly.



Keith





Hi Alix,



Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.



Cheers Rosie



I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and AC.

I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where, book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"



The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.



Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour of the event.



It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.



Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success of women's events in Australia.



Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying that it is of less significance to know who the best female player is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in the world is, is truly demeaning for women.



Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to expect that the female membership is represented by events that address their needs.



I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the success of the single **** events.



Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do whenever we can.



World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner of that particular event at that time.



If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the event would still be held and the winner would still be the World Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because he was not playing.



As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed up by appropriate action.



Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities relevant to as many female participants as possible.



That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World Champion as I'm sure many people do.


Rosie Keith,

I tell you what I will do; you give me evidence of the "demand" you
claim and I will work on a figure for you. It would appear NZ already
have a figure of 8 countries/nations so that's a start for you.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 8:21 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> Liz,
>
> Can you answer the question I asked?
>
> "Just how much demand will you regard as sufficient? Do you have a
> number in mind, or a list of top women players who must support it,
> or what?"
>
> Keith
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Liz and Bruce Fleming
> To: Keith Aiton
> Cc: Nottingham Board
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 9:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [Croquet] Proposed Women's World Championship
>
> Keith,
>
> Calm down, calm down. I'm not noted for calm down when I have to
> deal with men who believe they know what's good for every women in
> the world.
>
> How long will it be before you simply show us what you claim to
> have. You claim this proposal came about due to "demand" and .I
> and the WCF MC all know that is not the case. You have not so far
> come up with the goods, all you offer is a group 5/6 (or whatever
> number they were this last time) sitting upstairs in a little room
> during a Golf Event deciding they know best.
>
> The original proposal, which has not altered, was rejected as I
> quoted previously. What's changed? What other considerations have
> there been? What survey has been conducted outside Australasia to
> estimate the level of interest?
>
> So far all you have is a group of men sitting in a little room
> together deciding what is best for the girls.
>
> I did not miss the fact the boys had their meeting at Cairnlea. In
> fact I was sat on the balcony right outside the big glass window
> whilst it was going on. There was no consultation with the women
> even then! Even when we were all their, yards away. The boys knew
> best!
>
> Ketih you are on the WCF MC and obviously we now all know you have
> your own view of women in croquet and I think you have made it very
> clear what that is.
> Unfortunately for we women you have a vote and there is not even one
> token women on the WCF MC to speak out there so we will get what you
> boys decide.
>
> Liz
>
>
>
>
> On 09/04/2010, at 7:42 PM, Keith Aiton wrote:
>
>> Liz,
>>
>> Do try and calm down, and read what I wrote. I mentioned a WCFMC
>> meeting in November 2009, held during the WWGC event. That's
>> November 2009, in case you missed it the first time. That's just
>> over four months ago, not four and a half years ago.
>>
>> By the way, just how much demand will you regard as sufficient? Do
>> you have a number in mind, or a list of top women players who must
>> support it, or what?
>>
>> Keith
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe.

I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board directly.



Keith





Hi Alix,



Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.



Cheers Rosie



I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and AC.

I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where, book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"



The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.



Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour of the event.



It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.



Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success of women's events in Australia.



Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying that it is of less significance to know who the best female player is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in the world is, is truly demeaning for women.



Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to expect that the female membership is represented by events that address their needs.



I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the success of the single **** events.



Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do whenever we can.



World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner of that particular event at that time.



If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the event would still be held and the winner would still be the World Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because he was not playing.



As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed up by appropriate action.



Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities relevant to as many female participants as possible.



That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World Champion as I'm sure many people do.


Rosie Keith,

I tell you what I will do; you give me evidence of the "demand" you
claim and I will work on a figure for you. It would appear NZ already
have a figure of 8 countries/nations so that's a start for you.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 8:21 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> Liz,
>
> Can you answer the question I asked?
>
> "Just how much demand will you regard as sufficient? Do you have a
> number in mind, or a list of top women players who must support it,
> or what?"
>
> Keith
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Liz and Bruce Fleming
> To: Keith Aiton
> Cc: Nottingham Board
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 9:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [Croquet] Proposed Women's World Championship
>
> Keith,
>
> Calm down, calm down. I'm not noted for calm down when I have to
> deal with men who believe they know what's good for every women in
> the world.
>
> How long will it be before you simply show us what you claim to
> have. You claim this proposal came about due to "demand" and .I
> and the WCF MC all know that is not the case. You have not so far
> come up with the goods, all you offer is a group 5/6 (or whatever
> number they were this last time) sitting upstairs in a little room
> during a Golf Event deciding they know best.
>
> The original proposal, which has not altered, was rejected as I
> quoted previously. What's changed? What other considerations have
> there been? What survey has been conducted outside Australasia to
> estimate the level of interest?
>
> So far all you have is a group of men sitting in a little room
> together deciding what is best for the girls.
>
> I did not miss the fact the boys had their meeting at Cairnlea. In
> fact I was sat on the balcony right outside the big glass window
> whilst it was going on. There was no consultation with the women
> even then! Even when we were all their, yards away. The boys knew
> best!
>
> Ketih you are on the WCF MC and obviously we now all know you have
> your own view of women in croquet and I think you have made it very
> clear what that is.
> Unfortunately for we women you have a vote and there is not even one
> token women on the WCF MC to speak out there so we will get what you
> boys decide.
>
> Liz
>
>
>
>
> On 09/04/2010, at 7:42 PM, Keith Aiton wrote:
>
>> Liz,
>>
>> Do try and calm down, and read what I wrote. I mentioned a WCFMC
>> meeting in November 2009, held during the WWGC event. That's
>> November 2009, in case you missed it the first time. That's just
>> over four months ago, not four and a half years ago.
>>
>> By the way, just how much demand will you regard as sufficient? Do
>> you have a number in mind, or a list of top women players who must
>> support it, or what?
>>
>> Keith
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. Keith,

There you go again: "you are told that they (apart from you, of
course) would like the opportunity to compete in a similar fashion
internationally."
Who has told you that?
What similar fashion are you talking about now?
Similar fashion to what?
Australian women and all Australasian women have the opportunity of
entering women's events all around the world already - they don't
travel to enter them.

The Australian Association has not asked the players in Australia. In
fact they dropped the whole idea of a Womens World's a few years ago
when it did not receive support from the WCFMC of the time. The men
spoken to at Cairnlea only supported David Openshaw and Charles Jones
when told it was an Australia idea in the first place and they ought
to still support it. I did not see any support from Australia listed
on the WCF site when postings could have been made.



I really have nothing more to say to you Keith on the subject, I
believe you have my view.
Come up with the evidence for World demand outside Australasia and let
everyone work from there.
NZ have already said there should be 8 countries/nations for funding
purposes.
8 'Others' and The Big Four must all at the very least support it. -
One does, one can't make it's mind up and hasn't asked any of it's
players and two say no.

The WCF in 2005 said there were better options; what options have you
the WCFMC been looking into since that time, that you have apparently
rejected?
There are better options!
Liz



>
On 10/04/2010, at 8:28 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> Liz,
>
> What do you mean by "segregation"? Would you describe croquet in
> Australia as "segregated"? It seems to me, as an outsider simply
> looking at numbers of players, that the Australian model for
> encouraging women to compete at a high level (within Australia)
> works. I'm told that they (apart from you, of course) would like the
> opportunity to compete in a similar fashion internationally.
>
> Apart from your assertions, which I believe are without foundation,
> that women will be excluded from the open event, do you have any
> other concerns about a WWAC?
>
> Keith
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Liz and Bruce Fleming
> To: Keith Aiton
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 9:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [Croquet] Proposed Women's World Championship
>
> Keith,
>
> Yes, I would love this ridiculous idea to go to bed.
>
> This is a can of worms and I am surprised and a little disappointed
> that a better solution to the problem of encouraging women has not
> been sought.
>
> Segregation is a lousy idea, is patrronizing and will certainly be
> the death of women's croquet long term.
>
> Liz
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe.

I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board directly.



Keith





Hi Alix,



Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.



Cheers Rosie



I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and AC.

I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where, book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"



The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.



Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour of the event.



It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.



Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success of women's events in Australia.



Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying that it is of less significance to know who the best female player is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in the world is, is truly demeaning for women.



Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to expect that the female membership is represented by events that address their needs.



I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the success of the single **** events.



Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do whenever we can.



World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner of that particular event at that time.



If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the event would still be held and the winner would still be the World Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because he was not playing.



As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed up by appropriate action.



Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities relevant to as many female participants as possible.



That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World Champion as I'm sure many people do.


Rosie Keith,

I tell you what I will do; you give me evidence of the "demand" you
claim and I will work on a figure for you. It would appear NZ already
have a figure of 8 countries/nations so that's a start for you.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 8:21 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> Liz,
>
> Can you answer the question I asked?
>
> "Just how much demand will you regard as sufficient? Do you have a
> number in mind, or a list of top women players who must support it,
> or what?"
>
> Keith
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Liz and Bruce Fleming
> To: Keith Aiton
> Cc: Nottingham Board
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 9:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [Croquet] Proposed Women's World Championship
>
> Keith,
>
> Calm down, calm down. I'm not noted for calm down when I have to
> deal with men who believe they know what's good for every women in
> the world.
>
> How long will it be before you simply show us what you claim to
> have. You claim this proposal came about due to "demand" and .I
> and the WCF MC all know that is not the case. You have not so far
> come up with the goods, all you offer is a group 5/6 (or whatever
> number they were this last time) sitting upstairs in a little room
> during a Golf Event deciding they know best.
>
> The original proposal, which has not altered, was rejected as I
> quoted previously. What's changed? What other considerations have
> there been? What survey has been conducted outside Australasia to
> estimate the level of interest?
>
> So far all you have is a group of men sitting in a little room
> together deciding what is best for the girls.
>
> I did not miss the fact the boys had their meeting at Cairnlea. In
> fact I was sat on the balcony right outside the big glass window
> whilst it was going on. There was no consultation with the women
> even then! Even when we were all their, yards away. The boys knew
> best!
>
> Ketih you are on the WCF MC and obviously we now all know you have
> your own view of women in croquet and I think you have made it very
> clear what that is.
> Unfortunately for we women you have a vote and there is not even one
> token women on the WCF MC to speak out there so we will get what you
> boys decide.
>
> Liz
>
>
>
>
> On 09/04/2010, at 7:42 PM, Keith Aiton wrote:
>
>> Liz,
>>
>> Do try and calm down, and read what I wrote. I mentioned a WCFMC
>> meeting in November 2009, held during the WWGC event. That's
>> November 2009, in case you missed it the first time. That's just
>> over four months ago, not four and a half years ago.
>>
>> By the way, just how much demand will you regard as sufficient? Do
>> you have a number in mind, or a list of top women players who must
>> support it, or what?
>>
>> Keith
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. Keith,

There you go again: "you are told that they (apart from you, of
course) would like the opportunity to compete in a similar fashion
internationally."
Who has told you that?
What similar fashion are you talking about now?
Similar fashion to what?
Australian women and all Australasian women have the opportunity of
entering women's events all around the world already - they don't
travel to enter them.

The Australian Association has not asked the players in Australia. In
fact they dropped the whole idea of a Womens World's a few years ago
when it did not receive support from the WCFMC of the time. The men
spoken to at Cairnlea only supported David Openshaw and Charles Jones
when told it was an Australia idea in the first place and they ought
to still support it. I did not see any support from Australia listed
on the WCF site when postings could have been made.



I really have nothing more to say to you Keith on the subject, I
believe you have my view.
Come up with the evidence for World demand outside Australasia and let
everyone work from there.
NZ have already said there should be 8 countries/nations for funding
purposes.
8 'Others' and The Big Four must all at the very least support it. -
One does, one can't make it's mind up and hasn't asked any of it's
players and two say no.

The WCF in 2005 said there were better options; what options have you
the WCFMC been looking into since that time, that you have apparently
rejected?
There are better options!
Liz



>
On 10/04/2010, at 8:28 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> Liz,
>
> What do you mean by "segregation"? Would you describe croquet in
> Australia as "segregated"? It seems to me, as an outsider simply
> looking at numbers of players, that the Australian model for
> encouraging women to compete at a high level (within Australia)
> works. I'm told that they (apart from you, of course) would like the
> opportunity to compete in a similar fashion internationally.
>
> Apart from your assertions, which I believe are without foundation,
> that women will be excluded from the open event, do you have any
> other concerns about a WWAC?
>
> Keith
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Liz and Bruce Fleming
> To: Keith Aiton
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 9:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [Croquet] Proposed Women's World Championship
>
> Keith,
>
> Yes, I would love this ridiculous idea to go to bed.
>
> This is a can of worms and I am surprised and a little disappointed
> that a better solution to the problem of encouraging women has not
> been sought.
>
> Segregation is a lousy idea, is patrronizing and will certainly be
> the death of women's croquet long term.
>
> Liz
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. Stephen,

I'm wondering about all women, through the 80-plus slots usually selected
for the WCF AC Championships. This would necessarily include women and men
outside the top 50 grades. I know the numbers are likely to be fractional
compared to men, but I still wonder, tho' I'm not sure if there is a way to
accurately know the answer.

best,
Rhys

I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board directly.



Keith





Hi Alix,



Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.



Cheers Rosie



I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and AC.

I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where, book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"



The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.



Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour of the event.



It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.



Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success of women's events in Australia.



Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying that it is of less significance to know who the best female player is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in the world is, is truly demeaning for women.



Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to expect that the female membership is represented by events that address their needs.



I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the success of the single **** events.



Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do whenever we can.



World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner of that particular event at that time.



If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the event would still be held and the winner would still be the World Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because he was not playing.



As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed up by appropriate action.



Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities relevant to as many female participants as possible.



That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World Champion as I'm sure many people do.


Rosie Keith,

I tell you what I will do; you give me evidence of the "demand" you
claim and I will work on a figure for you. It would appear NZ already
have a figure of 8 countries/nations so that's a start for you.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 8:21 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> Liz,
>
> Can you answer the question I asked?
>
> "Just how much demand will you regard as sufficient? Do you have a
> number in mind, or a list of top women players who must support it,
> or what?"
>
> Keith
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Liz and Bruce Fleming
> To: Keith Aiton
> Cc: Nottingham Board
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 9:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [Croquet] Proposed Women's World Championship
>
> Keith,
>
> Calm down, calm down. I'm not noted for calm down when I have to
> deal with men who believe they know what's good for every women in
> the world.
>
> How long will it be before you simply show us what you claim to
> have. You claim this proposal came about due to "demand" and .I
> and the WCF MC all know that is not the case. You have not so far
> come up with the goods, all you offer is a group 5/6 (or whatever
> number they were this last time) sitting upstairs in a little room
> during a Golf Event deciding they know best.
>
> The original proposal, which has not altered, was rejected as I
> quoted previously. What's changed? What other considerations have
> there been? What survey has been conducted outside Australasia to
> estimate the level of interest?
>
> So far all you have is a group of men sitting in a little room
> together deciding what is best for the girls.
>
> I did not miss the fact the boys had their meeting at Cairnlea. In
> fact I was sat on the balcony right outside the big glass window
> whilst it was going on. There was no consultation with the women
> even then! Even when we were all their, yards away. The boys knew
> best!
>
> Ketih you are on the WCF MC and obviously we now all know you have
> your own view of women in croquet and I think you have made it very
> clear what that is.
> Unfortunately for we women you have a vote and there is not even one
> token women on the WCF MC to speak out there so we will get what you
> boys decide.
>
> Liz
>
>
>
>
> On 09/04/2010, at 7:42 PM, Keith Aiton wrote:
>
>> Liz,
>>
>> Do try and calm down, and read what I wrote. I mentioned a WCFMC
>> meeting in November 2009, held during the WWGC event. That's
>> November 2009, in case you missed it the first time. That's just
>> over four months ago, not four and a half years ago.
>>
>> By the way, just how much demand will you regard as sufficient? Do
>> you have a number in mind, or a list of top women players who must
>> support it, or what?
>>
>> Keith
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. Keith,

There you go again: "you are told that they (apart from you, of
course) would like the opportunity to compete in a similar fashion
internationally."
Who has told you that?
What similar fashion are you talking about now?
Similar fashion to what?
Australian women and all Australasian women have the opportunity of
entering women's events all around the world already - they don't
travel to enter them.

The Australian Association has not asked the players in Australia. In
fact they dropped the whole idea of a Womens World's a few years ago
when it did not receive support from the WCFMC of the time. The men
spoken to at Cairnlea only supported David Openshaw and Charles Jones
when told it was an Australia idea in the first place and they ought
to still support it. I did not see any support from Australia listed
on the WCF site when postings could have been made.



I really have nothing more to say to you Keith on the subject, I
believe you have my view.
Come up with the evidence for World demand outside Australasia and let
everyone work from there.
NZ have already said there should be 8 countries/nations for funding
purposes.
8 'Others' and The Big Four must all at the very least support it. -
One does, one can't make it's mind up and hasn't asked any of it's
players and two say no.

The WCF in 2005 said there were better options; what options have you
the WCFMC been looking into since that time, that you have apparently
rejected?
There are better options!
Liz



>
On 10/04/2010, at 8:28 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> Liz,
>
> What do you mean by "segregation"? Would you describe croquet in
> Australia as "segregated"? It seems to me, as an outsider simply
> looking at numbers of players, that the Australian model for
> encouraging women to compete at a high level (within Australia)
> works. I'm told that they (apart from you, of course) would like the
> opportunity to compete in a similar fashion internationally.
>
> Apart from your assertions, which I believe are without foundation,
> that women will be excluded from the open event, do you have any
> other concerns about a WWAC?
>
> Keith
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Liz and Bruce Fleming
> To: Keith Aiton
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 9:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [Croquet] Proposed Women's World Championship
>
> Keith,
>
> Yes, I would love this ridiculous idea to go to bed.
>
> This is a can of worms and I am surprised and a little disappointed
> that a better solution to the problem of encouraging women has not
> been sought.
>
> Segregation is a lousy idea, is patrronizing and will certainly be
> the death of women's croquet long term.
>
> Liz
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. Stephen,

I'm wondering about all women, through the 80-plus slots usually selected
for the WCF AC Championships. This would necessarily include women and men
outside the top 50 grades. I know the numbers are likely to be fractional
compared to men, but I still wonder, tho' I'm not sure if there is a way to
accurately know the answer.

best,
Rhys First I've heard about any of this. Certainly did not come from the
ACA.

Obviously not all inclusive.

Could we see the actual survey paper and actual recorded figures please.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 9:09 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email
> to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board
> because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board
> directly.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and
> AC.
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian
> Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where,
> book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet
> but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"
>
> The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.
>
> Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour
> of the event.
>
> It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women
> playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm
> any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and
> aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.
>
> Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent
> the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success
> of women's events in Australia.
>
> Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking
> to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying
> that it is of less significance to know who the best female player
> is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who
> the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in
> the world is, is truly demeaning for women.
>
> Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not
> represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to
> expect that the female membership is represented by events that
> address their needs.
>
> I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive
> female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the
> success of the single **** events.
>
> Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow
> them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do
> whenever we can.
>
> World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe
> together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner
> of that particular event at that time.
>
> If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working
> to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the
> event would still be held and the winner would still be the World
> Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because
> he was not playing.
>
> As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set
> back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed
> up by appropriate action.
>
> Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men
> already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different
> needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities
> relevant to as many female participants as possible.
>
> That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being
> competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the
> primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World
> Champion as I'm sure many people do.
>
> Rosie
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe.

I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board directly.



Keith





Hi Alix,



Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.



Cheers Rosie



I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and AC.

I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where, book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"



The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.



Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour of the event.



It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.



Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success of women's events in Australia.



Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying that it is of less significance to know who the best female player is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in the world is, is truly demeaning for women.



Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to expect that the female membership is represented by events that address their needs.



I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the success of the single **** events.



Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do whenever we can.



World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner of that particular event at that time.



If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the event would still be held and the winner would still be the World Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because he was not playing.



As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed up by appropriate action.



Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities relevant to as many female participants as possible.



That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World Champion as I'm sure many people do.


Rosie Keith,

I tell you what I will do; you give me evidence of the "demand" you
claim and I will work on a figure for you. It would appear NZ already
have a figure of 8 countries/nations so that's a start for you.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 8:21 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> Liz,
>
> Can you answer the question I asked?
>
> "Just how much demand will you regard as sufficient? Do you have a
> number in mind, or a list of top women players who must support it,
> or what?"
>
> Keith
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Liz and Bruce Fleming
> To: Keith Aiton
> Cc: Nottingham Board
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 9:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [Croquet] Proposed Women's World Championship
>
> Keith,
>
> Calm down, calm down. I'm not noted for calm down when I have to
> deal with men who believe they know what's good for every women in
> the world.
>
> How long will it be before you simply show us what you claim to
> have. You claim this proposal came about due to "demand" and .I
> and the WCF MC all know that is not the case. You have not so far
> come up with the goods, all you offer is a group 5/6 (or whatever
> number they were this last time) sitting upstairs in a little room
> during a Golf Event deciding they know best.
>
> The original proposal, which has not altered, was rejected as I
> quoted previously. What's changed? What other considerations have
> there been? What survey has been conducted outside Australasia to
> estimate the level of interest?
>
> So far all you have is a group of men sitting in a little room
> together deciding what is best for the girls.
>
> I did not miss the fact the boys had their meeting at Cairnlea. In
> fact I was sat on the balcony right outside the big glass window
> whilst it was going on. There was no consultation with the women
> even then! Even when we were all their, yards away. The boys knew
> best!
>
> Ketih you are on the WCF MC and obviously we now all know you have
> your own view of women in croquet and I think you have made it very
> clear what that is.
> Unfortunately for we women you have a vote and there is not even one
> token women on the WCF MC to speak out there so we will get what you
> boys decide.
>
> Liz
>
>
>
>
> On 09/04/2010, at 7:42 PM, Keith Aiton wrote:
>
>> Liz,
>>
>> Do try and calm down, and read what I wrote. I mentioned a WCFMC
>> meeting in November 2009, held during the WWGC event. That's
>> November 2009, in case you missed it the first time. That's just
>> over four months ago, not four and a half years ago.
>>
>> By the way, just how much demand will you regard as sufficient? Do
>> you have a number in mind, or a list of top women players who must
>> support it, or what?
>>
>> Keith
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. Keith,

There you go again: "you are told that they (apart from you, of
course) would like the opportunity to compete in a similar fashion
internationally."
Who has told you that?
What similar fashion are you talking about now?
Similar fashion to what?
Australian women and all Australasian women have the opportunity of
entering women's events all around the world already - they don't
travel to enter them.

The Australian Association has not asked the players in Australia. In
fact they dropped the whole idea of a Womens World's a few years ago
when it did not receive support from the WCFMC of the time. The men
spoken to at Cairnlea only supported David Openshaw and Charles Jones
when told it was an Australia idea in the first place and they ought
to still support it. I did not see any support from Australia listed
on the WCF site when postings could have been made.



I really have nothing more to say to you Keith on the subject, I
believe you have my view.
Come up with the evidence for World demand outside Australasia and let
everyone work from there.
NZ have already said there should be 8 countries/nations for funding
purposes.
8 'Others' and The Big Four must all at the very least support it. -
One does, one can't make it's mind up and hasn't asked any of it's
players and two say no.

The WCF in 2005 said there were better options; what options have you
the WCFMC been looking into since that time, that you have apparently
rejected?
There are better options!
Liz



>
On 10/04/2010, at 8:28 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> Liz,
>
> What do you mean by "segregation"? Would you describe croquet in
> Australia as "segregated"? It seems to me, as an outsider simply
> looking at numbers of players, that the Australian model for
> encouraging women to compete at a high level (within Australia)
> works. I'm told that they (apart from you, of course) would like the
> opportunity to compete in a similar fashion internationally.
>
> Apart from your assertions, which I believe are without foundation,
> that women will be excluded from the open event, do you have any
> other concerns about a WWAC?
>
> Keith
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Liz and Bruce Fleming
> To: Keith Aiton
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 9:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [Croquet] Proposed Women's World Championship
>
> Keith,
>
> Yes, I would love this ridiculous idea to go to bed.
>
> This is a can of worms and I am surprised and a little disappointed
> that a better solution to the problem of encouraging women has not
> been sought.
>
> Segregation is a lousy idea, is patrronizing and will certainly be
> the death of women's croquet long term.
>
> Liz
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. Stephen,

I'm wondering about all women, through the 80-plus slots usually selected
for the WCF AC Championships. This would necessarily include women and men
outside the top 50 grades. I know the numbers are likely to be fractional
compared to men, but I still wonder, tho' I'm not sure if there is a way to
accurately know the answer.

best,
Rhys First I've heard about any of this. Certainly did not come from the
ACA.

Obviously not all inclusive.

Could we see the actual survey paper and actual recorded figures please.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 9:09 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email
> to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board
> because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board
> directly.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and
> AC.
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian
> Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where,
> book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet
> but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"
>
> The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.
>
> Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour
> of the event.
>
> It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women
> playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm
> any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and
> aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.
>
> Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent
> the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success
> of women's events in Australia.
>
> Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking
> to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying
> that it is of less significance to know who the best female player
> is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who
> the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in
> the world is, is truly demeaning for women.
>
> Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not
> represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to
> expect that the female membership is represented by events that
> address their needs.
>
> I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive
> female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the
> success of the single **** events.
>
> Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow
> them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do
> whenever we can.
>
> World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe
> together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner
> of that particular event at that time.
>
> If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working
> to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the
> event would still be held and the winner would still be the World
> Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because
> he was not playing.
>
> As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set
> back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed
> up by appropriate action.
>
> Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men
> already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different
> needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities
> relevant to as many female participants as possible.
>
> That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being
> competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the
> primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World
> Champion as I'm sure many people do.
>
> Rosie
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. First I've heard about any of this. Certainly did not come from the
ACA.

Obviously not all inclusive.

Could we see the actual survey paper and actual recorded figures please.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 9:09 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email
> to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board
> because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board
> directly.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and
> AC.
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian
> Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where,
> book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet
> but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"
>
> The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.
>
> Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour
> of the event.
>
> It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women
> playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm
> any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and
> aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.
>
> Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent
> the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success
> of women's events in Australia.
>
> Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking
> to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying
> that it is of less significance to know who the best female player
> is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who
> the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in
> the world is, is truly demeaning for women.
>
> Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not
> represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to
> expect that the female membership is represented by events that
> address their needs.
>
> I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive
> female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the
> success of the single **** events.
>
> Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow
> them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do
> whenever we can.
>
> World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe
> together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner
> of that particular event at that time.
>
> If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working
> to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the
> event would still be held and the winner would still be the World
> Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because
> he was not playing.
>
> As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set
> back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed
> up by appropriate action.
>
> Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men
> already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different
> needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities
> relevant to as many female participants as possible.
>
> That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being
> competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the
> primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World
> Champion as I'm sure many people do.
>
> Rosie
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. First I've heard about any of this. Certainly did not come from the
ACA.

Obviously not all inclusive.

Could we see the actual survey paper and actual recorded figures please.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 9:09 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email
> to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board
> because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board
> directly.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and
> AC.
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian
> Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where,
> book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet
> but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"
>
> The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.
>
> Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour
> of the event.
>
> It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women
> playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm
> any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and
> aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.
>
> Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent
> the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success
> of women's events in Australia.
>
> Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking
> to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying
> that it is of less significance to know who the best female player
> is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who
> the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in
> the world is, is truly demeaning for women.
>
> Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not
> represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to
> expect that the female membership is represented by events that
> address their needs.
>
> I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive
> female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the
> success of the single **** events.
>
> Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow
> them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do
> whenever we can.
>
> World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe
> together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner
> of that particular event at that time.
>
> If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working
> to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the
> event would still be held and the winner would still be the World
> Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because
> he was not playing.
>
> As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set
> back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed
> up by appropriate action.
>
> Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men
> already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different
> needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities
> relevant to as many female participants as possible.
>
> That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being
> competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the
> primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World
> Champion as I'm sure many people do.
>
> Rosie
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe.

I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board directly.



Keith





Hi Alix,



Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.



Cheers Rosie



I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and AC.

I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where, book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"



The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.



Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour of the event.



It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.



Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success of women's events in Australia.



Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying that it is of less significance to know who the best female player is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in the world is, is truly demeaning for women.



Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to expect that the female membership is represented by events that address their needs.



I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the success of the single **** events.



Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do whenever we can.



World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner of that particular event at that time.



If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the event would still be held and the winner would still be the World Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because he was not playing.



As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed up by appropriate action.



Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities relevant to as many female participants as possible.



That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World Champion as I'm sure many people do.


Rosie Keith,

I tell you what I will do; you give me evidence of the "demand" you
claim and I will work on a figure for you. It would appear NZ already
have a figure of 8 countries/nations so that's a start for you.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 8:21 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> Liz,
>
> Can you answer the question I asked?
>
> "Just how much demand will you regard as sufficient? Do you have a
> number in mind, or a list of top women players who must support it,
> or what?"
>
> Keith
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Liz and Bruce Fleming
> To: Keith Aiton
> Cc: Nottingham Board
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 9:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [Croquet] Proposed Women's World Championship
>
> Keith,
>
> Calm down, calm down. I'm not noted for calm down when I have to
> deal with men who believe they know what's good for every women in
> the world.
>
> How long will it be before you simply show us what you claim to
> have. You claim this proposal came about due to "demand" and .I
> and the WCF MC all know that is not the case. You have not so far
> come up with the goods, all you offer is a group 5/6 (or whatever
> number they were this last time) sitting upstairs in a little room
> during a Golf Event deciding they know best.
>
> The original proposal, which has not altered, was rejected as I
> quoted previously. What's changed? What other considerations have
> there been? What survey has been conducted outside Australasia to
> estimate the level of interest?
>
> So far all you have is a group of men sitting in a little room
> together deciding what is best for the girls.
>
> I did not miss the fact the boys had their meeting at Cairnlea. In
> fact I was sat on the balcony right outside the big glass window
> whilst it was going on. There was no consultation with the women
> even then! Even when we were all their, yards away. The boys knew
> best!
>
> Ketih you are on the WCF MC and obviously we now all know you have
> your own view of women in croquet and I think you have made it very
> clear what that is.
> Unfortunately for we women you have a vote and there is not even one
> token women on the WCF MC to speak out there so we will get what you
> boys decide.
>
> Liz
>
>
>
>
> On 09/04/2010, at 7:42 PM, Keith Aiton wrote:
>
>> Liz,
>>
>> Do try and calm down, and read what I wrote. I mentioned a WCFMC
>> meeting in November 2009, held during the WWGC event. That's
>> November 2009, in case you missed it the first time. That's just
>> over four months ago, not four and a half years ago.
>>
>> By the way, just how much demand will you regard as sufficient? Do
>> you have a number in mind, or a list of top women players who must
>> support it, or what?
>>
>> Keith
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. Keith,

There you go again: "you are told that they (apart from you, of
course) would like the opportunity to compete in a similar fashion
internationally."
Who has told you that?
What similar fashion are you talking about now?
Similar fashion to what?
Australian women and all Australasian women have the opportunity of
entering women's events all around the world already - they don't
travel to enter them.

The Australian Association has not asked the players in Australia. In
fact they dropped the whole idea of a Womens World's a few years ago
when it did not receive support from the WCFMC of the time. The men
spoken to at Cairnlea only supported David Openshaw and Charles Jones
when told it was an Australia idea in the first place and they ought
to still support it. I did not see any support from Australia listed
on the WCF site when postings could have been made.



I really have nothing more to say to you Keith on the subject, I
believe you have my view.
Come up with the evidence for World demand outside Australasia and let
everyone work from there.
NZ have already said there should be 8 countries/nations for funding
purposes.
8 'Others' and The Big Four must all at the very least support it. -
One does, one can't make it's mind up and hasn't asked any of it's
players and two say no.

The WCF in 2005 said there were better options; what options have you
the WCFMC been looking into since that time, that you have apparently
rejected?
There are better options!
Liz



>
On 10/04/2010, at 8:28 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> Liz,
>
> What do you mean by "segregation"? Would you describe croquet in
> Australia as "segregated"? It seems to me, as an outsider simply
> looking at numbers of players, that the Australian model for
> encouraging women to compete at a high level (within Australia)
> works. I'm told that they (apart from you, of course) would like the
> opportunity to compete in a similar fashion internationally.
>
> Apart from your assertions, which I believe are without foundation,
> that women will be excluded from the open event, do you have any
> other concerns about a WWAC?
>
> Keith
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Liz and Bruce Fleming
> To: Keith Aiton
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 9:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [Croquet] Proposed Women's World Championship
>
> Keith,
>
> Yes, I would love this ridiculous idea to go to bed.
>
> This is a can of worms and I am surprised and a little disappointed
> that a better solution to the problem of encouraging women has not
> been sought.
>
> Segregation is a lousy idea, is patrronizing and will certainly be
> the death of women's croquet long term.
>
> Liz
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. Stephen,

I'm wondering about all women, through the 80-plus slots usually selected
for the WCF AC Championships. This would necessarily include women and men
outside the top 50 grades. I know the numbers are likely to be fractional
compared to men, but I still wonder, tho' I'm not sure if there is a way to
accurately know the answer.

best,
Rhys First I've heard about any of this. Certainly did not come from the
ACA.

Obviously not all inclusive.

Could we see the actual survey paper and actual recorded figures please.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 9:09 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email
> to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board
> because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board
> directly.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and
> AC.
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian
> Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where,
> book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet
> but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"
>
> The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.
>
> Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour
> of the event.
>
> It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women
> playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm
> any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and
> aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.
>
> Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent
> the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success
> of women's events in Australia.
>
> Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking
> to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying
> that it is of less significance to know who the best female player
> is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who
> the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in
> the world is, is truly demeaning for women.
>
> Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not
> represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to
> expect that the female membership is represented by events that
> address their needs.
>
> I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive
> female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the
> success of the single **** events.
>
> Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow
> them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do
> whenever we can.
>
> World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe
> together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner
> of that particular event at that time.
>
> If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working
> to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the
> event would still be held and the winner would still be the World
> Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because
> he was not playing.
>
> As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set
> back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed
> up by appropriate action.
>
> Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men
> already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different
> needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities
> relevant to as many female participants as possible.
>
> That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being
> competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the
> primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World
> Champion as I'm sure many people do.
>
> Rosie
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. First I've heard about any of this. Certainly did not come from the
ACA.

Obviously not all inclusive.

Could we see the actual survey paper and actual recorded figures please.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 9:09 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email
> to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board
> because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board
> directly.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and
> AC.
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian
> Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where,
> book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet
> but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"
>
> The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.
>
> Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour
> of the event.
>
> It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women
> playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm
> any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and
> aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.
>
> Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent
> the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success
> of women's events in Australia.
>
> Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking
> to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying
> that it is of less significance to know who the best female player
> is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who
> the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in
> the world is, is truly demeaning for women.
>
> Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not
> represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to
> expect that the female membership is represented by events that
> address their needs.
>
> I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive
> female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the
> success of the single **** events.
>
> Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow
> them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do
> whenever we can.
>
> World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe
> together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner
> of that particular event at that time.
>
> If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working
> to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the
> event would still be held and the winner would still be the World
> Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because
> he was not playing.
>
> As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set
> back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed
> up by appropriate action.
>
> Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men
> already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different
> needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities
> relevant to as many female participants as possible.
>
> That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being
> competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the
> primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World
> Champion as I'm sure many people do.
>
> Rosie
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. First I've heard about any of this. Certainly did not come from the
ACA.

Obviously not all inclusive.

Could we see the actual survey paper and actual recorded figures please.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 9:09 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email
> to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board
> because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board
> directly.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and
> AC.
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian
> Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where,
> book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet
> but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"
>
> The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.
>
> Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour
> of the event.
>
> It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women
> playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm
> any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and
> aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.
>
> Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent
> the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success
> of women's events in Australia.
>
> Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking
> to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying
> that it is of less significance to know who the best female player
> is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who
> the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in
> the world is, is truly demeaning for women.
>
> Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not
> represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to
> expect that the female membership is represented by events that
> address their needs.
>
> I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive
> female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the
> success of the single **** events.
>
> Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow
> them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do
> whenever we can.
>
> World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe
> together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner
> of that particular event at that time.
>
> If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working
> to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the
> event would still be held and the winner would still be the World
> Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because
> he was not playing.
>
> As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set
> back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed
> up by appropriate action.
>
> Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men
> already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different
> needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities
> relevant to as many female participants as possible.
>
> That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being
> competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the
> primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World
> Champion as I'm sure many people do.
>
> Rosie
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe.
First I've heard about any of this. Certainly did not come from the
ACA.

Obviously not all inclusive.

Could we see the actual survey paper and actual recorded figures please.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 9:09 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email
> to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board
> because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board
> directly.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and
> AC.
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian
> Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where,
> book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet
> but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"
>
> The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.
>
> Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour
> of the event.
>
> It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women
> playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm
> any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and
> aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.
>
> Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent
> the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success
> of women's events in Australia.
>
> Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking
> to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying
> that it is of less significance to know who the best female player
> is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who
> the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in
> the world is, is truly demeaning for women.
>
> Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not
> represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to
> expect that the female membership is represented by events that
> address their needs.
>
> I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive
> female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the
> success of the single **** events.
>
> Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow
> them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do
> whenever we can.
>
> World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe
> together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner
> of that particular event at that time.
>
> If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working
> to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the
> event would still be held and the winner would still be the World
> Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because
> he was not playing.
>
> As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set
> back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed
> up by appropriate action.
>
> Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men
> already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different
> needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities
> relevant to as many female participants as possible.
>
> That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being
> competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the
> primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World
> Champion as I'm sure many people do.
>
> Rosie
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. First I've heard about any of this. Certainly did not come from the
ACA.

Obviously not all inclusive.

Could we see the actual survey paper and actual recorded figures please.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 9:09 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email
> to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board
> because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board
> directly.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and
> AC.
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian
> Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where,
> book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet
> but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"
>
> The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.
>
> Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour
> of the event.
>
> It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women
> playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm
> any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and
> aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.
>
> Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent
> the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success
> of women's events in Australia.
>
> Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking
> to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying
> that it is of less significance to know who the best female player
> is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who
> the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in
> the world is, is truly demeaning for women.
>
> Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not
> represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to
> expect that the female membership is represented by events that
> address their needs.
>
> I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive
> female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the
> success of the single **** events.
>
> Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow
> them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do
> whenever we can.
>
> World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe
> together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner
> of that particular event at that time.
>
> If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working
> to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the
> event would still be held and the winner would still be the World
> Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because
> he was not playing.
>
> As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set
> back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed
> up by appropriate action.
>
> Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men
> already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different
> needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities
> relevant to as many female participants as possible.
>
> That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being
> competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the
> primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World
> Champion as I'm sure many people do.
>
> Rosie
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. I think this contribution from Rosie is very helpful. It reflects the type of comments that were made to me by most of the ladies in November. If you live in the UK or USA it may be difficult to grasp the number of competent lady players in Australasia and their desire for competition. This is why I am in favour of exploring the level of support for Womens world events.



My concern is about how keen they are.



We had 56 players in November at Cairnlea - it was a good event that was positive for croquet, particularly in Australia. Of those 56 players, 22 were Australian, 12 were NZ and 12 were Egyptian. How many of the 34 Australasian entry will be prepared (and able) to travel to Toronto for the next Womens GC Worlds? Only time will tell, but I am concerned that there won't be half the number of entries and that we won't have 8 nations competing. I very much hope that I am wrong.



This comes back to the old question of how often should a world champs be held. There is a school of thought supported by players like Fulford/Mulliner that you hold as many as possible because it gives multiple opportunities for people to play and it doesn't matter if the event is missing a few of the top players. Then there is my view that the event should have wider spacing to allow players to plan both time and money to be able to make the event the truly world class event it should be.



The current plan seems to be to make sure that there is at least one world championship every year. 2010 is scheduled to have two world championships (August and October) and 2011 is scheduled to also have two (June and July). I would estimate the cost of Jenny and myself attending the 2011 events to be c. 20000NZD - if Jenny can get time off work.



Do other readers think the WCF is spacing these events correctly, or would they (like me) prefer a more Olympic style 4 year separation between events?



Chris







From:
To: .uk
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 00:09:00 +0100
Subject: [Croquet] Fw: Proposed Women's World Championship




I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board directly.

Keith


Hi Alix,

Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.

Cheers Rosie

I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and AC.
I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where, book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"

The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.

Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour of the event.

It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.

Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success of women's events in Australia.

Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying that it is of less significance to know who the best female player is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in the world is, is truly demeaning for women.

Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to expect that the female membership is represented by events that address their needs.

I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the success of the single **** events.

Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do whenever we can.

World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner of that particular event at that time.

If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the event would still be held and the winner would still be the World Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because he was not playing.

As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed up by appropriate action.

Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities relevant to as many female participants as possible.

That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World Champion as I'm sure many people do.

Rosie
_________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe.

I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board directly.



Keith





Hi Alix,



Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.



Cheers Rosie



I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and AC.

I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where, book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"



The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.



Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour of the event.



It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.



Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success of women's events in Australia.



Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying that it is of less significance to know who the best female player is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in the world is, is truly demeaning for women.



Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to expect that the female membership is represented by events that address their needs.



I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the success of the single **** events.



Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do whenever we can.



World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner of that particular event at that time.



If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the event would still be held and the winner would still be the World Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because he was not playing.



As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed up by appropriate action.



Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities relevant to as many female participants as possible.



That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World Champion as I'm sure many people do.


Rosie Keith,

I tell you what I will do; you give me evidence of the "demand" you
claim and I will work on a figure for you. It would appear NZ already
have a figure of 8 countries/nations so that's a start for you.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 8:21 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> Liz,
>
> Can you answer the question I asked?
>
> "Just how much demand will you regard as sufficient? Do you have a
> number in mind, or a list of top women players who must support it,
> or what?"
>
> Keith
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Liz and Bruce Fleming
> To: Keith Aiton
> Cc: Nottingham Board
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 9:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [Croquet] Proposed Women's World Championship
>
> Keith,
>
> Calm down, calm down. I'm not noted for calm down when I have to
> deal with men who believe they know what's good for every women in
> the world.
>
> How long will it be before you simply show us what you claim to
> have. You claim this proposal came about due to "demand" and .I
> and the WCF MC all know that is not the case. You have not so far
> come up with the goods, all you offer is a group 5/6 (or whatever
> number they were this last time) sitting upstairs in a little room
> during a Golf Event deciding they know best.
>
> The original proposal, which has not altered, was rejected as I
> quoted previously. What's changed? What other considerations have
> there been? What survey has been conducted outside Australasia to
> estimate the level of interest?
>
> So far all you have is a group of men sitting in a little room
> together deciding what is best for the girls.
>
> I did not miss the fact the boys had their meeting at Cairnlea. In
> fact I was sat on the balcony right outside the big glass window
> whilst it was going on. There was no consultation with the women
> even then! Even when we were all their, yards away. The boys knew
> best!
>
> Ketih you are on the WCF MC and obviously we now all know you have
> your own view of women in croquet and I think you have made it very
> clear what that is.
> Unfortunately for we women you have a vote and there is not even one
> token women on the WCF MC to speak out there so we will get what you
> boys decide.
>
> Liz
>
>
>
>
> On 09/04/2010, at 7:42 PM, Keith Aiton wrote:
>
>> Liz,
>>
>> Do try and calm down, and read what I wrote. I mentioned a WCFMC
>> meeting in November 2009, held during the WWGC event. That's
>> November 2009, in case you missed it the first time. That's just
>> over four months ago, not four and a half years ago.
>>
>> By the way, just how much demand will you regard as sufficient? Do
>> you have a number in mind, or a list of top women players who must
>> support it, or what?
>>
>> Keith
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. Keith,

There you go again: "you are told that they (apart from you, of
course) would like the opportunity to compete in a similar fashion
internationally."
Who has told you that?
What similar fashion are you talking about now?
Similar fashion to what?
Australian women and all Australasian women have the opportunity of
entering women's events all around the world already - they don't
travel to enter them.

The Australian Association has not asked the players in Australia. In
fact they dropped the whole idea of a Womens World's a few years ago
when it did not receive support from the WCFMC of the time. The men
spoken to at Cairnlea only supported David Openshaw and Charles Jones
when told it was an Australia idea in the first place and they ought
to still support it. I did not see any support from Australia listed
on the WCF site when postings could have been made.



I really have nothing more to say to you Keith on the subject, I
believe you have my view.
Come up with the evidence for World demand outside Australasia and let
everyone work from there.
NZ have already said there should be 8 countries/nations for funding
purposes.
8 'Others' and The Big Four must all at the very least support it. -
One does, one can't make it's mind up and hasn't asked any of it's
players and two say no.

The WCF in 2005 said there were better options; what options have you
the WCFMC been looking into since that time, that you have apparently
rejected?
There are better options!
Liz



>
On 10/04/2010, at 8:28 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> Liz,
>
> What do you mean by "segregation"? Would you describe croquet in
> Australia as "segregated"? It seems to me, as an outsider simply
> looking at numbers of players, that the Australian model for
> encouraging women to compete at a high level (within Australia)
> works. I'm told that they (apart from you, of course) would like the
> opportunity to compete in a similar fashion internationally.
>
> Apart from your assertions, which I believe are without foundation,
> that women will be excluded from the open event, do you have any
> other concerns about a WWAC?
>
> Keith
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Liz and Bruce Fleming
> To: Keith Aiton
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 9:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [Croquet] Proposed Women's World Championship
>
> Keith,
>
> Yes, I would love this ridiculous idea to go to bed.
>
> This is a can of worms and I am surprised and a little disappointed
> that a better solution to the problem of encouraging women has not
> been sought.
>
> Segregation is a lousy idea, is patrronizing and will certainly be
> the death of women's croquet long term.
>
> Liz
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. Stephen,

I'm wondering about all women, through the 80-plus slots usually selected
for the WCF AC Championships. This would necessarily include women and men
outside the top 50 grades. I know the numbers are likely to be fractional
compared to men, but I still wonder, tho' I'm not sure if there is a way to
accurately know the answer.

best,
Rhys First I've heard about any of this. Certainly did not come from the
ACA.

Obviously not all inclusive.

Could we see the actual survey paper and actual recorded figures please.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 9:09 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email
> to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board
> because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board
> directly.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and
> AC.
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian
> Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where,
> book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet
> but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"
>
> The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.
>
> Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour
> of the event.
>
> It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women
> playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm
> any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and
> aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.
>
> Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent
> the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success
> of women's events in Australia.
>
> Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking
> to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying
> that it is of less significance to know who the best female player
> is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who
> the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in
> the world is, is truly demeaning for women.
>
> Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not
> represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to
> expect that the female membership is represented by events that
> address their needs.
>
> I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive
> female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the
> success of the single **** events.
>
> Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow
> them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do
> whenever we can.
>
> World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe
> together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner
> of that particular event at that time.
>
> If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working
> to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the
> event would still be held and the winner would still be the World
> Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because
> he was not playing.
>
> As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set
> back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed
> up by appropriate action.
>
> Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men
> already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different
> needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities
> relevant to as many female participants as possible.
>
> That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being
> competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the
> primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World
> Champion as I'm sure many people do.
>
> Rosie
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. First I've heard about any of this. Certainly did not come from the
ACA.

Obviously not all inclusive.

Could we see the actual survey paper and actual recorded figures please.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 9:09 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email
> to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board
> because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board
> directly.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and
> AC.
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian
> Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where,
> book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet
> but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"
>
> The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.
>
> Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour
> of the event.
>
> It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women
> playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm
> any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and
> aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.
>
> Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent
> the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success
> of women's events in Australia.
>
> Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking
> to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying
> that it is of less significance to know who the best female player
> is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who
> the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in
> the world is, is truly demeaning for women.
>
> Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not
> represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to
> expect that the female membership is represented by events that
> address their needs.
>
> I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive
> female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the
> success of the single **** events.
>
> Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow
> them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do
> whenever we can.
>
> World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe
> together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner
> of that particular event at that time.
>
> If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working
> to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the
> event would still be held and the winner would still be the World
> Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because
> he was not playing.
>
> As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set
> back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed
> up by appropriate action.
>
> Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men
> already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different
> needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities
> relevant to as many female participants as possible.
>
> That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being
> competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the
> primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World
> Champion as I'm sure many people do.
>
> Rosie
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. First I've heard about any of this. Certainly did not come from the
ACA.

Obviously not all inclusive.

Could we see the actual survey paper and actual recorded figures please.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 9:09 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email
> to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board
> because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board
> directly.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and
> AC.
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian
> Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where,
> book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet
> but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"
>
> The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.
>
> Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour
> of the event.
>
> It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women
> playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm
> any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and
> aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.
>
> Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent
> the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success
> of women's events in Australia.
>
> Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking
> to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying
> that it is of less significance to know who the best female player
> is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who
> the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in
> the world is, is truly demeaning for women.
>
> Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not
> represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to
> expect that the female membership is represented by events that
> address their needs.
>
> I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive
> female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the
> success of the single **** events.
>
> Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow
> them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do
> whenever we can.
>
> World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe
> together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner
> of that particular event at that time.
>
> If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working
> to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the
> event would still be held and the winner would still be the World
> Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because
> he was not playing.
>
> As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set
> back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed
> up by appropriate action.
>
> Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men
> already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different
> needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities
> relevant to as many female participants as possible.
>
> That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being
> competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the
> primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World
> Champion as I'm sure many people do.
>
> Rosie
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe.
First I've heard about any of this. Certainly did not come from the
ACA.

Obviously not all inclusive.

Could we see the actual survey paper and actual recorded figures please.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 9:09 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email
> to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board
> because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board
> directly.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and
> AC.
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian
> Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where,
> book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet
> but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"
>
> The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.
>
> Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour
> of the event.
>
> It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women
> playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm
> any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and
> aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.
>
> Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent
> the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success
> of women's events in Australia.
>
> Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking
> to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying
> that it is of less significance to know who the best female player
> is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who
> the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in
> the world is, is truly demeaning for women.
>
> Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not
> represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to
> expect that the female membership is represented by events that
> address their needs.
>
> I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive
> female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the
> success of the single **** events.
>
> Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow
> them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do
> whenever we can.
>
> World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe
> together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner
> of that particular event at that time.
>
> If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working
> to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the
> event would still be held and the winner would still be the World
> Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because
> he was not playing.
>
> As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set
> back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed
> up by appropriate action.
>
> Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men
> already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different
> needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities
> relevant to as many female participants as possible.
>
> That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being
> competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the
> primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World
> Champion as I'm sure many people do.
>
> Rosie
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. First I've heard about any of this. Certainly did not come from the
ACA.

Obviously not all inclusive.

Could we see the actual survey paper and actual recorded figures please.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 9:09 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email
> to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board
> because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board
> directly.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and
> AC.
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian
> Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where,
> book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet
> but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"
>
> The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.
>
> Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour
> of the event.
>
> It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women
> playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm
> any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and
> aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.
>
> Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent
> the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success
> of women's events in Australia.
>
> Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking
> to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying
> that it is of less significance to know who the best female player
> is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who
> the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in
> the world is, is truly demeaning for women.
>
> Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not
> represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to
> expect that the female membership is represented by events that
> address their needs.
>
> I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive
> female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the
> success of the single **** events.
>
> Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow
> them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do
> whenever we can.
>
> World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe
> together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner
> of that particular event at that time.
>
> If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working
> to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the
> event would still be held and the winner would still be the World
> Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because
> he was not playing.
>
> As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set
> back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed
> up by appropriate action.
>
> Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men
> already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different
> needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities
> relevant to as many female participants as possible.
>
> That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being
> competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the
> primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World
> Champion as I'm sure many people do.
>
> Rosie
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. I think this contribution from Rosie is very helpful. It reflects the type of comments that were made to me by most of the ladies in November. If you live in the UK or USA it may be difficult to grasp the number of competent lady players in Australasia and their desire for competition. This is why I am in favour of exploring the level of support for Womens world events.



My concern is about how keen they are.



We had 56 players in November at Cairnlea - it was a good event that was positive for croquet, particularly in Australia. Of those 56 players, 22 were Australian, 12 were NZ and 12 were Egyptian. How many of the 34 Australasian entry will be prepared (and able) to travel to Toronto for the next Womens GC Worlds? Only time will tell, but I am concerned that there won't be half the number of entries and that we won't have 8 nations competing. I very much hope that I am wrong.



This comes back to the old question of how often should a world champs be held. There is a school of thought supported by players like Fulford/Mulliner that you hold as many as possible because it gives multiple opportunities for people to play and it doesn't matter if the event is missing a few of the top players. Then there is my view that the event should have wider spacing to allow players to plan both time and money to be able to make the event the truly world class event it should be.



The current plan seems to be to make sure that there is at least one world championship every year. 2010 is scheduled to have two world championships (August and October) and 2011 is scheduled to also have two (June and July). I would estimate the cost of Jenny and myself attending the 2011 events to be c. 20000NZD - if Jenny can get time off work.



Do other readers think the WCF is spacing these events correctly, or would they (like me) prefer a more Olympic style 4 year separation between events?



Chris







From:
To: .uk
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 00:09:00 +0100
Subject: [Croquet] Fw: Proposed Women's World Championship




I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board directly.

Keith


Hi Alix,

Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.

Cheers Rosie

I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and AC.
I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where, book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"

The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.

Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour of the event.

It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.

Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success of women's events in Australia.

Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying that it is of less significance to know who the best female player is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in the world is, is truly demeaning for women.

Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to expect that the female membership is represented by events that address their needs.

I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the success of the single **** events.

Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do whenever we can.

World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner of that particular event at that time.

If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the event would still be held and the winner would still be the World Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because he was not playing.

As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed up by appropriate action.

Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities relevant to as many female participants as possible.

That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World Champion as I'm sure many people do.

Rosie
_________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. I've been reading the emails which have been flying about the proposed
Women's AC Champs. The reason behind this appears to be a concern that
there do not appear to be enough women competing in the top level in World
Championships at present, so creating one for women will help to build up
confidence and give women something to aim for and so more will start to
play at the highest level. But this seems to me to be looking at the
problem from the wrong end of the telescope.

If there is an under represented group at the top level, then perhaps the
reasons why should be comprehensively researched: by this I don't mean
having a chat with a few folks or self selected group: I mean well
constructed, planned, in-depth research in NZ, Australia, the USA and
Britain, with robust validity and reliability, probably using both
quantitative and qualitative methods. If the WCF are serious about
developing croquet and have identified this as a concern, then perhaps it
should be using its well-filled coffers to determine what the real reasons
are. Only then can a workable solution be found – if of course there is one.
It may be that having a women's world championship is something that might
be a positive contribution, but there might be other solutions.

Of the arguments posed so far, I find that there is a dichotomy between some
claims that we need women's events to build confidence and the equally
assertive claim that there are lots of women's events in Australia which are
well supported. This is substantiated by Chris Clarke saying that outside
Australasia it is “difficult to grasp the number of competent lady players
in Australasia and their desire for competition.”. If this is so, then why
aren't more women coming through to the top of the game from Australasia?
There must be a reason, and I can't see what that is, if participation is so
wide.



It can also be argued why aren't more British women coming though? There is
a lively tournament scene here in which women play a part at all levels and
they are all mixed tournaments. Women's events are simply not supported over
here.


It might be that there are problems that have nothing to do with any of the
above. Money, time, young families, a negative attitude from governing
bodies and clubs might all contribute to the mix. If this is the case, and
Stephen Mulliner articulated many of these points above, why would simply
creating a Women’s World Championship change this?

For most sports, if you want to increase participation and quality at the
top level, you need to invest in the grass roots and local development of a
sport. As Colin Hemming stated: “I am convinced that there is an enormous
source of talent waiting to hit the top echelon of our sport if only the
custodians of the grass roots (the club secretaries and captains) take the
opportunity to release it and nurture it”. He may have a point.



For some years now, the UK has had a national lottery which has contributed
to the development in sport in this country, and the tally of Olympic medals
has significantly risen as a result. A top level event didn't need to be
created, as the Olympics have been around for over 100 years, but the
training, support and structure of the sport to produce Olympic athletes did
need to be created or significantly enhanced.

Here are a few of the areas that you’d need to study for a start.


What are the male/female participation rates in each country?
What are the membership ratios of each governing body? (if there is a type
of individual membership of course)
Who plays in tournaments?

Do those who are active tournament players only play in tournaments near
where they live? (If you live around Cheltenham/Bristol, you can get in a
lot of tournament play without having to go away from home.)
Is going to play away from home a major disincentive for any particular
group - old, young, female, etc) If so, why?

Ditto for overseas travel?

Is money a factor? (Quite probably)

Is having time a factor? (For most of us on 20 – 25 days holiday a year it
certainly is.)

Is the lack of public funding a limiting factor or doesn’t it make a huge
difference?

Where there is support from public funds is there really enough to make a
difference?

What are the reasons for women giving up the game?

What is the solution?


From what I can see, there is no inherent reason from a
strength/tactics/ability point of view why women aren’t better represented
at the top level and women have always had some representation – after all
there were women team members in the first Mac and Lily Gower won the
British Opens in the early 1900s. So why are there fewer women? A proper
look at the reason would tell us why

--
Elizabeth A Williams

I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board directly.



Keith





Hi Alix,



Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.



Cheers Rosie



I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and AC.

I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where, book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"



The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.



Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour of the event.



It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.



Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success of women's events in Australia.



Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying that it is of less significance to know who the best female player is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in the world is, is truly demeaning for women.



Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to expect that the female membership is represented by events that address their needs.



I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the success of the single **** events.



Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do whenever we can.



World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner of that particular event at that time.



If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the event would still be held and the winner would still be the World Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because he was not playing.



As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed up by appropriate action.



Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities relevant to as many female participants as possible.



That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World Champion as I'm sure many people do.


Rosie Keith,

I tell you what I will do; you give me evidence of the "demand" you
claim and I will work on a figure for you. It would appear NZ already
have a figure of 8 countries/nations so that's a start for you.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 8:21 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> Liz,
>
> Can you answer the question I asked?
>
> "Just how much demand will you regard as sufficient? Do you have a
> number in mind, or a list of top women players who must support it,
> or what?"
>
> Keith
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Liz and Bruce Fleming
> To: Keith Aiton
> Cc: Nottingham Board
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 9:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [Croquet] Proposed Women's World Championship
>
> Keith,
>
> Calm down, calm down. I'm not noted for calm down when I have to
> deal with men who believe they know what's good for every women in
> the world.
>
> How long will it be before you simply show us what you claim to
> have. You claim this proposal came about due to "demand" and .I
> and the WCF MC all know that is not the case. You have not so far
> come up with the goods, all you offer is a group 5/6 (or whatever
> number they were this last time) sitting upstairs in a little room
> during a Golf Event deciding they know best.
>
> The original proposal, which has not altered, was rejected as I
> quoted previously. What's changed? What other considerations have
> there been? What survey has been conducted outside Australasia to
> estimate the level of interest?
>
> So far all you have is a group of men sitting in a little room
> together deciding what is best for the girls.
>
> I did not miss the fact the boys had their meeting at Cairnlea. In
> fact I was sat on the balcony right outside the big glass window
> whilst it was going on. There was no consultation with the women
> even then! Even when we were all their, yards away. The boys knew
> best!
>
> Ketih you are on the WCF MC and obviously we now all know you have
> your own view of women in croquet and I think you have made it very
> clear what that is.
> Unfortunately for we women you have a vote and there is not even one
> token women on the WCF MC to speak out there so we will get what you
> boys decide.
>
> Liz
>
>
>
>
> On 09/04/2010, at 7:42 PM, Keith Aiton wrote:
>
>> Liz,
>>
>> Do try and calm down, and read what I wrote. I mentioned a WCFMC
>> meeting in November 2009, held during the WWGC event. That's
>> November 2009, in case you missed it the first time. That's just
>> over four months ago, not four and a half years ago.
>>
>> By the way, just how much demand will you regard as sufficient? Do
>> you have a number in mind, or a list of top women players who must
>> support it, or what?
>>
>> Keith
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. Keith,

There you go again: "you are told that they (apart from you, of
course) would like the opportunity to compete in a similar fashion
internationally."
Who has told you that?
What similar fashion are you talking about now?
Similar fashion to what?
Australian women and all Australasian women have the opportunity of
entering women's events all around the world already - they don't
travel to enter them.

The Australian Association has not asked the players in Australia. In
fact they dropped the whole idea of a Womens World's a few years ago
when it did not receive support from the WCFMC of the time. The men
spoken to at Cairnlea only supported David Openshaw and Charles Jones
when told it was an Australia idea in the first place and they ought
to still support it. I did not see any support from Australia listed
on the WCF site when postings could have been made.



I really have nothing more to say to you Keith on the subject, I
believe you have my view.
Come up with the evidence for World demand outside Australasia and let
everyone work from there.
NZ have already said there should be 8 countries/nations for funding
purposes.
8 'Others' and The Big Four must all at the very least support it. -
One does, one can't make it's mind up and hasn't asked any of it's
players and two say no.

The WCF in 2005 said there were better options; what options have you
the WCFMC been looking into since that time, that you have apparently
rejected?
There are better options!
Liz



>
On 10/04/2010, at 8:28 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> Liz,
>
> What do you mean by "segregation"? Would you describe croquet in
> Australia as "segregated"? It seems to me, as an outsider simply
> looking at numbers of players, that the Australian model for
> encouraging women to compete at a high level (within Australia)
> works. I'm told that they (apart from you, of course) would like the
> opportunity to compete in a similar fashion internationally.
>
> Apart from your assertions, which I believe are without foundation,
> that women will be excluded from the open event, do you have any
> other concerns about a WWAC?
>
> Keith
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Liz and Bruce Fleming
> To: Keith Aiton
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 9:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [Croquet] Proposed Women's World Championship
>
> Keith,
>
> Yes, I would love this ridiculous idea to go to bed.
>
> This is a can of worms and I am surprised and a little disappointed
> that a better solution to the problem of encouraging women has not
> been sought.
>
> Segregation is a lousy idea, is patrronizing and will certainly be
> the death of women's croquet long term.
>
> Liz
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. Stephen,

I'm wondering about all women, through the 80-plus slots usually selected
for the WCF AC Championships. This would necessarily include women and men
outside the top 50 grades. I know the numbers are likely to be fractional
compared to men, but I still wonder, tho' I'm not sure if there is a way to
accurately know the answer.

best,
Rhys First I've heard about any of this. Certainly did not come from the
ACA.

Obviously not all inclusive.

Could we see the actual survey paper and actual recorded figures please.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 9:09 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email
> to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board
> because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board
> directly.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and
> AC.
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian
> Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where,
> book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet
> but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"
>
> The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.
>
> Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour
> of the event.
>
> It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women
> playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm
> any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and
> aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.
>
> Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent
> the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success
> of women's events in Australia.
>
> Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking
> to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying
> that it is of less significance to know who the best female player
> is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who
> the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in
> the world is, is truly demeaning for women.
>
> Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not
> represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to
> expect that the female membership is represented by events that
> address their needs.
>
> I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive
> female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the
> success of the single **** events.
>
> Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow
> them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do
> whenever we can.
>
> World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe
> together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner
> of that particular event at that time.
>
> If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working
> to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the
> event would still be held and the winner would still be the World
> Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because
> he was not playing.
>
> As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set
> back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed
> up by appropriate action.
>
> Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men
> already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different
> needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities
> relevant to as many female participants as possible.
>
> That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being
> competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the
> primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World
> Champion as I'm sure many people do.
>
> Rosie
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. First I've heard about any of this. Certainly did not come from the
ACA.

Obviously not all inclusive.

Could we see the actual survey paper and actual recorded figures please.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 9:09 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email
> to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board
> because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board
> directly.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and
> AC.
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian
> Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where,
> book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet
> but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"
>
> The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.
>
> Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour
> of the event.
>
> It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women
> playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm
> any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and
> aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.
>
> Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent
> the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success
> of women's events in Australia.
>
> Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking
> to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying
> that it is of less significance to know who the best female player
> is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who
> the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in
> the world is, is truly demeaning for women.
>
> Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not
> represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to
> expect that the female membership is represented by events that
> address their needs.
>
> I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive
> female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the
> success of the single **** events.
>
> Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow
> them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do
> whenever we can.
>
> World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe
> together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner
> of that particular event at that time.
>
> If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working
> to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the
> event would still be held and the winner would still be the World
> Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because
> he was not playing.
>
> As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set
> back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed
> up by appropriate action.
>
> Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men
> already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different
> needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities
> relevant to as many female participants as possible.
>
> That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being
> competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the
> primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World
> Champion as I'm sure many people do.
>
> Rosie
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. First I've heard about any of this. Certainly did not come from the
ACA.

Obviously not all inclusive.

Could we see the actual survey paper and actual recorded figures please.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 9:09 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email
> to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board
> because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board
> directly.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and
> AC.
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian
> Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where,
> book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet
> but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"
>
> The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.
>
> Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour
> of the event.
>
> It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women
> playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm
> any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and
> aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.
>
> Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent
> the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success
> of women's events in Australia.
>
> Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking
> to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying
> that it is of less significance to know who the best female player
> is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who
> the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in
> the world is, is truly demeaning for women.
>
> Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not
> represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to
> expect that the female membership is represented by events that
> address their needs.
>
> I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive
> female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the
> success of the single **** events.
>
> Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow
> them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do
> whenever we can.
>
> World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe
> together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner
> of that particular event at that time.
>
> If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working
> to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the
> event would still be held and the winner would still be the World
> Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because
> he was not playing.
>
> As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set
> back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed
> up by appropriate action.
>
> Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men
> already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different
> needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities
> relevant to as many female participants as possible.
>
> That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being
> competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the
> primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World
> Champion as I'm sure many people do.
>
> Rosie
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe.
First I've heard about any of this. Certainly did not come from the
ACA.

Obviously not all inclusive.

Could we see the actual survey paper and actual recorded figures please.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 9:09 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email
> to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board
> because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board
> directly.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and
> AC.
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian
> Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where,
> book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet
> but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"
>
> The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.
>
> Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour
> of the event.
>
> It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women
> playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm
> any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and
> aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.
>
> Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent
> the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success
> of women's events in Australia.
>
> Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking
> to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying
> that it is of less significance to know who the best female player
> is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who
> the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in
> the world is, is truly demeaning for women.
>
> Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not
> represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to
> expect that the female membership is represented by events that
> address their needs.
>
> I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive
> female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the
> success of the single **** events.
>
> Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow
> them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do
> whenever we can.
>
> World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe
> together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner
> of that particular event at that time.
>
> If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working
> to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the
> event would still be held and the winner would still be the World
> Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because
> he was not playing.
>
> As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set
> back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed
> up by appropriate action.
>
> Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men
> already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different
> needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities
> relevant to as many female participants as possible.
>
> That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being
> competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the
> primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World
> Champion as I'm sure many people do.
>
> Rosie
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. First I've heard about any of this. Certainly did not come from the
ACA.

Obviously not all inclusive.

Could we see the actual survey paper and actual recorded figures please.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 9:09 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email
> to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board
> because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board
> directly.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and
> AC.
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian
> Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where,
> book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet
> but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"
>
> The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.
>
> Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour
> of the event.
>
> It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women
> playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm
> any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and
> aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.
>
> Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent
> the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success
> of women's events in Australia.
>
> Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking
> to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying
> that it is of less significance to know who the best female player
> is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who
> the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in
> the world is, is truly demeaning for women.
>
> Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not
> represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to
> expect that the female membership is represented by events that
> address their needs.
>
> I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive
> female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the
> success of the single **** events.
>
> Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow
> them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do
> whenever we can.
>
> World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe
> together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner
> of that particular event at that time.
>
> If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working
> to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the
> event would still be held and the winner would still be the World
> Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because
> he was not playing.
>
> As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set
> back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed
> up by appropriate action.
>
> Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men
> already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different
> needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities
> relevant to as many female participants as possible.
>
> That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being
> competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the
> primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World
> Champion as I'm sure many people do.
>
> Rosie
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. I think this contribution from Rosie is very helpful. It reflects the type of comments that were made to me by most of the ladies in November. If you live in the UK or USA it may be difficult to grasp the number of competent lady players in Australasia and their desire for competition. This is why I am in favour of exploring the level of support for Womens world events.



My concern is about how keen they are.



We had 56 players in November at Cairnlea - it was a good event that was positive for croquet, particularly in Australia. Of those 56 players, 22 were Australian, 12 were NZ and 12 were Egyptian. How many of the 34 Australasian entry will be prepared (and able) to travel to Toronto for the next Womens GC Worlds? Only time will tell, but I am concerned that there won't be half the number of entries and that we won't have 8 nations competing. I very much hope that I am wrong.



This comes back to the old question of how often should a world champs be held. There is a school of thought supported by players like Fulford/Mulliner that you hold as many as possible because it gives multiple opportunities for people to play and it doesn't matter if the event is missing a few of the top players. Then there is my view that the event should have wider spacing to allow players to plan both time and money to be able to make the event the truly world class event it should be.



The current plan seems to be to make sure that there is at least one world championship every year. 2010 is scheduled to have two world championships (August and October) and 2011 is scheduled to also have two (June and July). I would estimate the cost of Jenny and myself attending the 2011 events to be c. 20000NZD - if Jenny can get time off work.



Do other readers think the WCF is spacing these events correctly, or would they (like me) prefer a more Olympic style 4 year separation between events?



Chris







From:
To: .uk
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 00:09:00 +0100
Subject: [Croquet] Fw: Proposed Women's World Championship




I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board directly.

Keith


Hi Alix,

Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.

Cheers Rosie

I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and AC.
I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where, book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"

The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.

Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour of the event.

It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.

Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success of women's events in Australia.

Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying that it is of less significance to know who the best female player is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in the world is, is truly demeaning for women.

Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to expect that the female membership is represented by events that address their needs.

I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the success of the single **** events.

Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do whenever we can.

World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner of that particular event at that time.

If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the event would still be held and the winner would still be the World Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because he was not playing.

As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed up by appropriate action.

Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities relevant to as many female participants as possible.

That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World Champion as I'm sure many people do.

Rosie
_________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. I've been reading the emails which have been flying about the proposed
Women's AC Champs. The reason behind this appears to be a concern that
there do not appear to be enough women competing in the top level in World
Championships at present, so creating one for women will help to build up
confidence and give women something to aim for and so more will start to
play at the highest level. But this seems to me to be looking at the
problem from the wrong end of the telescope.

If there is an under represented group at the top level, then perhaps the
reasons why should be comprehensively researched: by this I don't mean
having a chat with a few folks or self selected group: I mean well
constructed, planned, in-depth research in NZ, Australia, the USA and
Britain, with robust validity and reliability, probably using both
quantitative and qualitative methods. If the WCF are serious about
developing croquet and have identified this as a concern, then perhaps it
should be using its well-filled coffers to determine what the real reasons
are. Only then can a workable solution be found – if of course there is one.
It may be that having a women's world championship is something that might
be a positive contribution, but there might be other solutions.

Of the arguments posed so far, I find that there is a dichotomy between some
claims that we need women's events to build confidence and the equally
assertive claim that there are lots of women's events in Australia which are
well supported. This is substantiated by Chris Clarke saying that outside
Australasia it is “difficult to grasp the number of competent lady players
in Australasia and their desire for competition.”. If this is so, then why
aren't more women coming through to the top of the game from Australasia?
There must be a reason, and I can't see what that is, if participation is so
wide.



It can also be argued why aren't more British women coming though? There is
a lively tournament scene here in which women play a part at all levels and
they are all mixed tournaments. Women's events are simply not supported over
here.


It might be that there are problems that have nothing to do with any of the
above. Money, time, young families, a negative attitude from governing
bodies and clubs might all contribute to the mix. If this is the case, and
Stephen Mulliner articulated many of these points above, why would simply
creating a Women’s World Championship change this?

For most sports, if you want to increase participation and quality at the
top level, you need to invest in the grass roots and local development of a
sport. As Colin Hemming stated: “I am convinced that there is an enormous
source of talent waiting to hit the top echelon of our sport if only the
custodians of the grass roots (the club secretaries and captains) take the
opportunity to release it and nurture it”. He may have a point.



For some years now, the UK has had a national lottery which has contributed
to the development in sport in this country, and the tally of Olympic medals
has significantly risen as a result. A top level event didn't need to be
created, as the Olympics have been around for over 100 years, but the
training, support and structure of the sport to produce Olympic athletes did
need to be created or significantly enhanced.

Here are a few of the areas that you’d need to study for a start.


What are the male/female participation rates in each country?
What are the membership ratios of each governing body? (if there is a type
of individual membership of course)
Who plays in tournaments?

Do those who are active tournament players only play in tournaments near
where they live? (If you live around Cheltenham/Bristol, you can get in a
lot of tournament play without having to go away from home.)
Is going to play away from home a major disincentive for any particular
group - old, young, female, etc) If so, why?

Ditto for overseas travel?

Is money a factor? (Quite probably)

Is having time a factor? (For most of us on 20 – 25 days holiday a year it
certainly is.)

Is the lack of public funding a limiting factor or doesn’t it make a huge
difference?

Where there is support from public funds is there really enough to make a
difference?

What are the reasons for women giving up the game?

What is the solution?


From what I can see, there is no inherent reason from a
strength/tactics/ability point of view why women aren’t better represented
at the top level and women have always had some representation – after all
there were women team members in the first Mac and Lily Gower won the
British Opens in the early 1900s. So why are there fewer women? A proper
look at the reason would tell us why

--
Elizabeth A Williams Now Liz, don't try to baffle the NB with sense and reason - that'll never work!

Seriously, you are quite right that, unless there is a specific urgency to "do something", there is time to do a proper analysis.

regards
Martin French
07718 630804
----- Original Message -----
From: Elizabeth Williams
To: .uk
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Croquet] Proposed Women's World Championship


I've been reading the emails which have been flying about the proposed Women's AC Champs. The reason behind this appears to be a concern that there do not appear to be enough women competing in the top level in World Championships at present, so creating one for women will help to build up confidence and give women something to aim for and so more will start to play at the highest level. But this seems to me to be looking at the problem from the wrong end of the telescope.

If there is an under represented group at the top level, then perhaps the reasons why should be comprehensively researched: by this I don't mean having a chat with a few folks or self selected group: I mean well constructed, planned, in-depth research in NZ, Australia, the USA and Britain, with robust validity and reliability, probably using both quantitative and qualitative methods. If the WCF are serious about developing croquet and have identified this as a concern, then perhaps it should be using its well-filled coffers to determine what the real reasons are. Only then can a workable solution be found – if of course there is one. It may be that having a women's world championship is something that might be a positive contribution, but there might be other solutions.

Of the arguments posed so far, I find that there is a dichotomy between some claims that we need women's events to build confidence and the equally assertive claim that there are lots of women's events in Australia which are well supported. This is substantiated by Chris Clarke saying that outside Australasia it is “difficult to grasp the number of competent lady players in Australasia and their desire for competition.”. If this is so, then why aren't more women coming through to the top of the game from Australasia? There must be a reason, and I can't see what that is, if participation is so wide.



It can also be argued why aren't more British women coming though? There is a lively tournament scene here in which women play a part at all levels and they are all mixed tournaments. Women's events are simply not supported over here.


It might be that there are problems that have nothing to do with any of the above. Money, time, young families, a negative attitude from governing bodies and clubs might all contribute to the mix. If this is the case, and Stephen Mulliner articulated many of these points above, why would simply creating a Women’s World Championship change this?

For most sports, if you want to increase participation and quality at the top level, you need to invest in the grass roots and local development of a sport. As Colin Hemming stated: “I am convinced that there is an enormous source of talent waiting to hit the top echelon of our sport if only the custodians of the grass roots (the club secretaries and captains) take the opportunity to release it and nurture it”. He may have a point.



For some years now, the UK has had a national lottery which has contributed to the development in sport in this country, and the tally of Olympic medals has significantly risen as a result. A top level event didn't need to be created, as the Olympics have been around for over 100 years, but the training, support and structure of the sport to produce Olympic athletes did need to be created or significantly enhanced.

Here are a few of the areas that you’d need to study for a start.


What are the male/female participation rates in each country?
What are the membership ratios of each governing body? (if there is a type of individual membership of course)
Who plays in tournaments?

Do those who are active tournament players only play in tournaments near where they live? (If you live around Cheltenham/Bristol, you can get in a lot of tournament play without having to go away from home.)
Is going to play away from home a major disincentive for any particular group - old, young, female, etc) If so, why?

Ditto for overseas travel?

Is money a factor? (Quite probably)

Is having time a factor? (For most of us on 20 – 25 days holiday a year it certainly is.)

Is the lack of public funding a limiting factor or doesn’t it make a huge difference?

Where there is support from public funds is there really enough to make a difference?

What are the reasons for women giving up the game?

What is the solution?



From what I can see, there is no inherent reason from a strength/tactics/ability point of view why women aren’t better represented at the top level and women have always had some representation – after all there were women team members in the first Mac and Lily Gower won the British Opens in the early 1900s. So why are there fewer women? A proper look at the reason would tell us why

--
Elizabeth A Williams



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe.

I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board directly.



Keith





Hi Alix,



Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.



Cheers Rosie



I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and AC.

I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where, book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"



The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.



Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour of the event.



It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.



Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success of women's events in Australia.



Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying that it is of less significance to know who the best female player is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in the world is, is truly demeaning for women.



Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to expect that the female membership is represented by events that address their needs.



I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the success of the single **** events.



Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do whenever we can.



World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner of that particular event at that time.



If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the event would still be held and the winner would still be the World Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because he was not playing.



As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed up by appropriate action.



Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities relevant to as many female participants as possible.



That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World Champion as I'm sure many people do.


Rosie Keith,

I tell you what I will do; you give me evidence of the "demand" you
claim and I will work on a figure for you. It would appear NZ already
have a figure of 8 countries/nations so that's a start for you.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 8:21 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> Liz,
>
> Can you answer the question I asked?
>
> "Just how much demand will you regard as sufficient? Do you have a
> number in mind, or a list of top women players who must support it,
> or what?"
>
> Keith
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Liz and Bruce Fleming
> To: Keith Aiton
> Cc: Nottingham Board
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 9:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [Croquet] Proposed Women's World Championship
>
> Keith,
>
> Calm down, calm down. I'm not noted for calm down when I have to
> deal with men who believe they know what's good for every women in
> the world.
>
> How long will it be before you simply show us what you claim to
> have. You claim this proposal came about due to "demand" and .I
> and the WCF MC all know that is not the case. You have not so far
> come up with the goods, all you offer is a group 5/6 (or whatever
> number they were this last time) sitting upstairs in a little room
> during a Golf Event deciding they know best.
>
> The original proposal, which has not altered, was rejected as I
> quoted previously. What's changed? What other considerations have
> there been? What survey has been conducted outside Australasia to
> estimate the level of interest?
>
> So far all you have is a group of men sitting in a little room
> together deciding what is best for the girls.
>
> I did not miss the fact the boys had their meeting at Cairnlea. In
> fact I was sat on the balcony right outside the big glass window
> whilst it was going on. There was no consultation with the women
> even then! Even when we were all their, yards away. The boys knew
> best!
>
> Ketih you are on the WCF MC and obviously we now all know you have
> your own view of women in croquet and I think you have made it very
> clear what that is.
> Unfortunately for we women you have a vote and there is not even one
> token women on the WCF MC to speak out there so we will get what you
> boys decide.
>
> Liz
>
>
>
>
> On 09/04/2010, at 7:42 PM, Keith Aiton wrote:
>
>> Liz,
>>
>> Do try and calm down, and read what I wrote. I mentioned a WCFMC
>> meeting in November 2009, held during the WWGC event. That's
>> November 2009, in case you missed it the first time. That's just
>> over four months ago, not four and a half years ago.
>>
>> By the way, just how much demand will you regard as sufficient? Do
>> you have a number in mind, or a list of top women players who must
>> support it, or what?
>>
>> Keith
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. Keith,

There you go again: "you are told that they (apart from you, of
course) would like the opportunity to compete in a similar fashion
internationally."
Who has told you that?
What similar fashion are you talking about now?
Similar fashion to what?
Australian women and all Australasian women have the opportunity of
entering women's events all around the world already - they don't
travel to enter them.

The Australian Association has not asked the players in Australia. In
fact they dropped the whole idea of a Womens World's a few years ago
when it did not receive support from the WCFMC of the time. The men
spoken to at Cairnlea only supported David Openshaw and Charles Jones
when told it was an Australia idea in the first place and they ought
to still support it. I did not see any support from Australia listed
on the WCF site when postings could have been made.



I really have nothing more to say to you Keith on the subject, I
believe you have my view.
Come up with the evidence for World demand outside Australasia and let
everyone work from there.
NZ have already said there should be 8 countries/nations for funding
purposes.
8 'Others' and The Big Four must all at the very least support it. -
One does, one can't make it's mind up and hasn't asked any of it's
players and two say no.

The WCF in 2005 said there were better options; what options have you
the WCFMC been looking into since that time, that you have apparently
rejected?
There are better options!
Liz



>
On 10/04/2010, at 8:28 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> Liz,
>
> What do you mean by "segregation"? Would you describe croquet in
> Australia as "segregated"? It seems to me, as an outsider simply
> looking at numbers of players, that the Australian model for
> encouraging women to compete at a high level (within Australia)
> works. I'm told that they (apart from you, of course) would like the
> opportunity to compete in a similar fashion internationally.
>
> Apart from your assertions, which I believe are without foundation,
> that women will be excluded from the open event, do you have any
> other concerns about a WWAC?
>
> Keith
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Liz and Bruce Fleming
> To: Keith Aiton
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 9:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [Croquet] Proposed Women's World Championship
>
> Keith,
>
> Yes, I would love this ridiculous idea to go to bed.
>
> This is a can of worms and I am surprised and a little disappointed
> that a better solution to the problem of encouraging women has not
> been sought.
>
> Segregation is a lousy idea, is patrronizing and will certainly be
> the death of women's croquet long term.
>
> Liz
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. Stephen,

I'm wondering about all women, through the 80-plus slots usually selected
for the WCF AC Championships. This would necessarily include women and men
outside the top 50 grades. I know the numbers are likely to be fractional
compared to men, but I still wonder, tho' I'm not sure if there is a way to
accurately know the answer.

best,
Rhys First I've heard about any of this. Certainly did not come from the
ACA.

Obviously not all inclusive.

Could we see the actual survey paper and actual recorded figures please.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 9:09 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email
> to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board
> because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board
> directly.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and
> AC.
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian
> Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where,
> book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet
> but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"
>
> The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.
>
> Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour
> of the event.
>
> It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women
> playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm
> any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and
> aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.
>
> Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent
> the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success
> of women's events in Australia.
>
> Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking
> to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying
> that it is of less significance to know who the best female player
> is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who
> the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in
> the world is, is truly demeaning for women.
>
> Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not
> represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to
> expect that the female membership is represented by events that
> address their needs.
>
> I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive
> female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the
> success of the single **** events.
>
> Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow
> them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do
> whenever we can.
>
> World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe
> together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner
> of that particular event at that time.
>
> If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working
> to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the
> event would still be held and the winner would still be the World
> Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because
> he was not playing.
>
> As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set
> back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed
> up by appropriate action.
>
> Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men
> already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different
> needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities
> relevant to as many female participants as possible.
>
> That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being
> competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the
> primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World
> Champion as I'm sure many people do.
>
> Rosie
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. First I've heard about any of this. Certainly did not come from the
ACA.

Obviously not all inclusive.

Could we see the actual survey paper and actual recorded figures please.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 9:09 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email
> to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board
> because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board
> directly.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and
> AC.
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian
> Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where,
> book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet
> but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"
>
> The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.
>
> Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour
> of the event.
>
> It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women
> playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm
> any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and
> aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.
>
> Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent
> the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success
> of women's events in Australia.
>
> Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking
> to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying
> that it is of less significance to know who the best female player
> is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who
> the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in
> the world is, is truly demeaning for women.
>
> Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not
> represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to
> expect that the female membership is represented by events that
> address their needs.
>
> I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive
> female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the
> success of the single **** events.
>
> Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow
> them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do
> whenever we can.
>
> World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe
> together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner
> of that particular event at that time.
>
> If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working
> to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the
> event would still be held and the winner would still be the World
> Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because
> he was not playing.
>
> As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set
> back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed
> up by appropriate action.
>
> Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men
> already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different
> needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities
> relevant to as many female participants as possible.
>
> That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being
> competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the
> primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World
> Champion as I'm sure many people do.
>
> Rosie
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. First I've heard about any of this. Certainly did not come from the
ACA.

Obviously not all inclusive.

Could we see the actual survey paper and actual recorded figures please.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 9:09 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email
> to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board
> because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board
> directly.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and
> AC.
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian
> Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where,
> book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet
> but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"
>
> The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.
>
> Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour
> of the event.
>
> It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women
> playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm
> any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and
> aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.
>
> Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent
> the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success
> of women's events in Australia.
>
> Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking
> to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying
> that it is of less significance to know who the best female player
> is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who
> the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in
> the world is, is truly demeaning for women.
>
> Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not
> represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to
> expect that the female membership is represented by events that
> address their needs.
>
> I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive
> female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the
> success of the single **** events.
>
> Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow
> them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do
> whenever we can.
>
> World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe
> together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner
> of that particular event at that time.
>
> If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working
> to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the
> event would still be held and the winner would still be the World
> Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because
> he was not playing.
>
> As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set
> back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed
> up by appropriate action.
>
> Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men
> already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different
> needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities
> relevant to as many female participants as possible.
>
> That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being
> competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the
> primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World
> Champion as I'm sure many people do.
>
> Rosie
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe.
First I've heard about any of this. Certainly did not come from the
ACA.

Obviously not all inclusive.

Could we see the actual survey paper and actual recorded figures please.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 9:09 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email
> to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board
> because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board
> directly.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and
> AC.
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian
> Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where,
> book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet
> but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"
>
> The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.
>
> Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour
> of the event.
>
> It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women
> playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm
> any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and
> aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.
>
> Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent
> the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success
> of women's events in Australia.
>
> Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking
> to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying
> that it is of less significance to know who the best female player
> is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who
> the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in
> the world is, is truly demeaning for women.
>
> Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not
> represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to
> expect that the female membership is represented by events that
> address their needs.
>
> I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive
> female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the
> success of the single **** events.
>
> Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow
> them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do
> whenever we can.
>
> World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe
> together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner
> of that particular event at that time.
>
> If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working
> to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the
> event would still be held and the winner would still be the World
> Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because
> he was not playing.
>
> As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set
> back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed
> up by appropriate action.
>
> Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men
> already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different
> needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities
> relevant to as many female participants as possible.
>
> That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being
> competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the
> primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World
> Champion as I'm sure many people do.
>
> Rosie
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. First I've heard about any of this. Certainly did not come from the
ACA.

Obviously not all inclusive.

Could we see the actual survey paper and actual recorded figures please.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 9:09 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email
> to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board
> because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board
> directly.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and
> AC.
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian
> Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where,
> book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet
> but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"
>
> The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.
>
> Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour
> of the event.
>
> It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women
> playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm
> any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and
> aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.
>
> Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent
> the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success
> of women's events in Australia.
>
> Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking
> to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying
> that it is of less significance to know who the best female player
> is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who
> the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in
> the world is, is truly demeaning for women.
>
> Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not
> represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to
> expect that the female membership is represented by events that
> address their needs.
>
> I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive
> female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the
> success of the single **** events.
>
> Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow
> them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do
> whenever we can.
>
> World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe
> together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner
> of that particular event at that time.
>
> If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working
> to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the
> event would still be held and the winner would still be the World
> Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because
> he was not playing.
>
> As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set
> back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed
> up by appropriate action.
>
> Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men
> already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different
> needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities
> relevant to as many female participants as possible.
>
> That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being
> competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the
> primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World
> Champion as I'm sure many people do.
>
> Rosie
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. I think this contribution from Rosie is very helpful. It reflects the type of comments that were made to me by most of the ladies in November. If you live in the UK or USA it may be difficult to grasp the number of competent lady players in Australasia and their desire for competition. This is why I am in favour of exploring the level of support for Womens world events.



My concern is about how keen they are.



We had 56 players in November at Cairnlea - it was a good event that was positive for croquet, particularly in Australia. Of those 56 players, 22 were Australian, 12 were NZ and 12 were Egyptian. How many of the 34 Australasian entry will be prepared (and able) to travel to Toronto for the next Womens GC Worlds? Only time will tell, but I am concerned that there won't be half the number of entries and that we won't have 8 nations competing. I very much hope that I am wrong.



This comes back to the old question of how often should a world champs be held. There is a school of thought supported by players like Fulford/Mulliner that you hold as many as possible because it gives multiple opportunities for people to play and it doesn't matter if the event is missing a few of the top players. Then there is my view that the event should have wider spacing to allow players to plan both time and money to be able to make the event the truly world class event it should be.



The current plan seems to be to make sure that there is at least one world championship every year. 2010 is scheduled to have two world championships (August and October) and 2011 is scheduled to also have two (June and July). I would estimate the cost of Jenny and myself attending the 2011 events to be c. 20000NZD - if Jenny can get time off work.



Do other readers think the WCF is spacing these events correctly, or would they (like me) prefer a more Olympic style 4 year separation between events?



Chris







From:
To: .uk
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 00:09:00 +0100
Subject: [Croquet] Fw: Proposed Women's World Championship




I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board directly.

Keith


Hi Alix,

Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.

Cheers Rosie

I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and AC.
I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where, book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"

The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.

Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour of the event.

It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.

Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success of women's events in Australia.

Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying that it is of less significance to know who the best female player is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in the world is, is truly demeaning for women.

Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to expect that the female membership is represented by events that address their needs.

I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the success of the single **** events.

Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do whenever we can.

World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner of that particular event at that time.

If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the event would still be held and the winner would still be the World Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because he was not playing.

As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed up by appropriate action.

Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities relevant to as many female participants as possible.

That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World Champion as I'm sure many people do.

Rosie
_________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. I've been reading the emails which have been flying about the proposed
Women's AC Champs. The reason behind this appears to be a concern that
there do not appear to be enough women competing in the top level in World
Championships at present, so creating one for women will help to build up
confidence and give women something to aim for and so more will start to
play at the highest level. But this seems to me to be looking at the
problem from the wrong end of the telescope.

If there is an under represented group at the top level, then perhaps the
reasons why should be comprehensively researched: by this I don't mean
having a chat with a few folks or self selected group: I mean well
constructed, planned, in-depth research in NZ, Australia, the USA and
Britain, with robust validity and reliability, probably using both
quantitative and qualitative methods. If the WCF are serious about
developing croquet and have identified this as a concern, then perhaps it
should be using its well-filled coffers to determine what the real reasons
are. Only then can a workable solution be found – if of course there is one.
It may be that having a women's world championship is something that might
be a positive contribution, but there might be other solutions.

Of the arguments posed so far, I find that there is a dichotomy between some
claims that we need women's events to build confidence and the equally
assertive claim that there are lots of women's events in Australia which are
well supported. This is substantiated by Chris Clarke saying that outside
Australasia it is “difficult to grasp the number of competent lady players
in Australasia and their desire for competition.”. If this is so, then why
aren't more women coming through to the top of the game from Australasia?
There must be a reason, and I can't see what that is, if participation is so
wide.



It can also be argued why aren't more British women coming though? There is
a lively tournament scene here in which women play a part at all levels and
they are all mixed tournaments. Women's events are simply not supported over
here.


It might be that there are problems that have nothing to do with any of the
above. Money, time, young families, a negative attitude from governing
bodies and clubs might all contribute to the mix. If this is the case, and
Stephen Mulliner articulated many of these points above, why would simply
creating a Women’s World Championship change this?

For most sports, if you want to increase participation and quality at the
top level, you need to invest in the grass roots and local development of a
sport. As Colin Hemming stated: “I am convinced that there is an enormous
source of talent waiting to hit the top echelon of our sport if only the
custodians of the grass roots (the club secretaries and captains) take the
opportunity to release it and nurture it”. He may have a point.



For some years now, the UK has had a national lottery which has contributed
to the development in sport in this country, and the tally of Olympic medals
has significantly risen as a result. A top level event didn't need to be
created, as the Olympics have been around for over 100 years, but the
training, support and structure of the sport to produce Olympic athletes did
need to be created or significantly enhanced.

Here are a few of the areas that you’d need to study for a start.


What are the male/female participation rates in each country?
What are the membership ratios of each governing body? (if there is a type
of individual membership of course)
Who plays in tournaments?

Do those who are active tournament players only play in tournaments near
where they live? (If you live around Cheltenham/Bristol, you can get in a
lot of tournament play without having to go away from home.)
Is going to play away from home a major disincentive for any particular
group - old, young, female, etc) If so, why?

Ditto for overseas travel?

Is money a factor? (Quite probably)

Is having time a factor? (For most of us on 20 – 25 days holiday a year it
certainly is.)

Is the lack of public funding a limiting factor or doesn’t it make a huge
difference?

Where there is support from public funds is there really enough to make a
difference?

What are the reasons for women giving up the game?

What is the solution?


From what I can see, there is no inherent reason from a
strength/tactics/ability point of view why women aren’t better represented
at the top level and women have always had some representation – after all
there were women team members in the first Mac and Lily Gower won the
British Opens in the early 1900s. So why are there fewer women? A proper
look at the reason would tell us why

--
Elizabeth A Williams Now Liz, don't try to baffle the NB with sense and reason - that'll never work!

Seriously, you are quite right that, unless there is a specific urgency to "do something", there is time to do a proper analysis.

regards
Martin French
07718 630804
----- Original Message -----
From: Elizabeth Williams
To: .uk
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Croquet] Proposed Women's World Championship


I've been reading the emails which have been flying about the proposed Women's AC Champs. The reason behind this appears to be a concern that there do not appear to be enough women competing in the top level in World Championships at present, so creating one for women will help to build up confidence and give women something to aim for and so more will start to play at the highest level. But this seems to me to be looking at the problem from the wrong end of the telescope.

If there is an under represented group at the top level, then perhaps the reasons why should be comprehensively researched: by this I don't mean having a chat with a few folks or self selected group: I mean well constructed, planned, in-depth research in NZ, Australia, the USA and Britain, with robust validity and reliability, probably using both quantitative and qualitative methods. If the WCF are serious about developing croquet and have identified this as a concern, then perhaps it should be using its well-filled coffers to determine what the real reasons are. Only then can a workable solution be found – if of course there is one. It may be that having a women's world championship is something that might be a positive contribution, but there might be other solutions.

Of the arguments posed so far, I find that there is a dichotomy between some claims that we need women's events to build confidence and the equally assertive claim that there are lots of women's events in Australia which are well supported. This is substantiated by Chris Clarke saying that outside Australasia it is “difficult to grasp the number of competent lady players in Australasia and their desire for competition.”. If this is so, then why aren't more women coming through to the top of the game from Australasia? There must be a reason, and I can't see what that is, if participation is so wide.



It can also be argued why aren't more British women coming though? There is a lively tournament scene here in which women play a part at all levels and they are all mixed tournaments. Women's events are simply not supported over here.


It might be that there are problems that have nothing to do with any of the above. Money, time, young families, a negative attitude from governing bodies and clubs might all contribute to the mix. If this is the case, and Stephen Mulliner articulated many of these points above, why would simply creating a Women’s World Championship change this?

For most sports, if you want to increase participation and quality at the top level, you need to invest in the grass roots and local development of a sport. As Colin Hemming stated: “I am convinced that there is an enormous source of talent waiting to hit the top echelon of our sport if only the custodians of the grass roots (the club secretaries and captains) take the opportunity to release it and nurture it”. He may have a point.



For some years now, the UK has had a national lottery which has contributed to the development in sport in this country, and the tally of Olympic medals has significantly risen as a result. A top level event didn't need to be created, as the Olympics have been around for over 100 years, but the training, support and structure of the sport to produce Olympic athletes did need to be created or significantly enhanced.

Here are a few of the areas that you’d need to study for a start.


What are the male/female participation rates in each country?
What are the membership ratios of each governing body? (if there is a type of individual membership of course)
Who plays in tournaments?

Do those who are active tournament players only play in tournaments near where they live? (If you live around Cheltenham/Bristol, you can get in a lot of tournament play without having to go away from home.)
Is going to play away from home a major disincentive for any particular group - old, young, female, etc) If so, why?

Ditto for overseas travel?

Is money a factor? (Quite probably)

Is having time a factor? (For most of us on 20 – 25 days holiday a year it certainly is.)

Is the lack of public funding a limiting factor or doesn’t it make a huge difference?

Where there is support from public funds is there really enough to make a difference?

What are the reasons for women giving up the game?

What is the solution?



From what I can see, there is no inherent reason from a strength/tactics/ability point of view why women aren’t better represented at the top level and women have always had some representation – after all there were women team members in the first Mac and Lily Gower won the British Opens in the early 1900s. So why are there fewer women? A proper look at the reason would tell us why

--
Elizabeth A Williams



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. Rosemary's letter is an interesting contribution to the debate, but is,
as yet, merely anecdotal. The important question that needs to be asked
in such surveys is "are you prepared to cross the world to play in such
an event?".

I'm sure that lots of Australian women would enter a WWAC event *in
Australia*, just as lots of Australian women entered the WWGC event in
Melbourne. Yet only four Australian women entered the WWGC in Dublin two
years earlier. I fear that without the support of the Egyptians WWGC
events would be unsustainable; i.e., they would likely end up with half
the entries being local.

To have credibility, any "World Championship" needs to attract something
like half or more of the top ten players in the world.

Evidence in Britain is that our top women players like to enter the
Women's Championship once or twice, not least because the trophies (a
cup, a casket, and a locket) are the best in the world. Once they've got
their name on the trophies they prefer to compete against the top men
instead. I fear a WWAC will suffer the same fate.

Martin Murray

Keith Aiton wrote:
> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email to
> her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board because
> apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board directly.
>
>
>
> Keith
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
>
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
>
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
>
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and AC.
>
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian Women's
> Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where, book me in
> now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet but wow,that will
> be something to look forward to!"
>




_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe.

I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board directly.



Keith





Hi Alix,



Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.



Cheers Rosie



I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and AC.

I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where, book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"



The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.



Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour of the event.



It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.



Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success of women's events in Australia.



Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying that it is of less significance to know who the best female player is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in the world is, is truly demeaning for women.



Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to expect that the female membership is represented by events that address their needs.



I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the success of the single **** events.



Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do whenever we can.



World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner of that particular event at that time.



If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the event would still be held and the winner would still be the World Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because he was not playing.



As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed up by appropriate action.



Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities relevant to as many female participants as possible.



That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World Champion as I'm sure many people do.


Rosie Keith,

I tell you what I will do; you give me evidence of the "demand" you
claim and I will work on a figure for you. It would appear NZ already
have a figure of 8 countries/nations so that's a start for you.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 8:21 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> Liz,
>
> Can you answer the question I asked?
>
> "Just how much demand will you regard as sufficient? Do you have a
> number in mind, or a list of top women players who must support it,
> or what?"
>
> Keith
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Liz and Bruce Fleming
> To: Keith Aiton
> Cc: Nottingham Board
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 9:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [Croquet] Proposed Women's World Championship
>
> Keith,
>
> Calm down, calm down. I'm not noted for calm down when I have to
> deal with men who believe they know what's good for every women in
> the world.
>
> How long will it be before you simply show us what you claim to
> have. You claim this proposal came about due to "demand" and .I
> and the WCF MC all know that is not the case. You have not so far
> come up with the goods, all you offer is a group 5/6 (or whatever
> number they were this last time) sitting upstairs in a little room
> during a Golf Event deciding they know best.
>
> The original proposal, which has not altered, was rejected as I
> quoted previously. What's changed? What other considerations have
> there been? What survey has been conducted outside Australasia to
> estimate the level of interest?
>
> So far all you have is a group of men sitting in a little room
> together deciding what is best for the girls.
>
> I did not miss the fact the boys had their meeting at Cairnlea. In
> fact I was sat on the balcony right outside the big glass window
> whilst it was going on. There was no consultation with the women
> even then! Even when we were all their, yards away. The boys knew
> best!
>
> Ketih you are on the WCF MC and obviously we now all know you have
> your own view of women in croquet and I think you have made it very
> clear what that is.
> Unfortunately for we women you have a vote and there is not even one
> token women on the WCF MC to speak out there so we will get what you
> boys decide.
>
> Liz
>
>
>
>
> On 09/04/2010, at 7:42 PM, Keith Aiton wrote:
>
>> Liz,
>>
>> Do try and calm down, and read what I wrote. I mentioned a WCFMC
>> meeting in November 2009, held during the WWGC event. That's
>> November 2009, in case you missed it the first time. That's just
>> over four months ago, not four and a half years ago.
>>
>> By the way, just how much demand will you regard as sufficient? Do
>> you have a number in mind, or a list of top women players who must
>> support it, or what?
>>
>> Keith
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. Keith,

There you go again: "you are told that they (apart from you, of
course) would like the opportunity to compete in a similar fashion
internationally."
Who has told you that?
What similar fashion are you talking about now?
Similar fashion to what?
Australian women and all Australasian women have the opportunity of
entering women's events all around the world already - they don't
travel to enter them.

The Australian Association has not asked the players in Australia. In
fact they dropped the whole idea of a Womens World's a few years ago
when it did not receive support from the WCFMC of the time. The men
spoken to at Cairnlea only supported David Openshaw and Charles Jones
when told it was an Australia idea in the first place and they ought
to still support it. I did not see any support from Australia listed
on the WCF site when postings could have been made.



I really have nothing more to say to you Keith on the subject, I
believe you have my view.
Come up with the evidence for World demand outside Australasia and let
everyone work from there.
NZ have already said there should be 8 countries/nations for funding
purposes.
8 'Others' and The Big Four must all at the very least support it. -
One does, one can't make it's mind up and hasn't asked any of it's
players and two say no.

The WCF in 2005 said there were better options; what options have you
the WCFMC been looking into since that time, that you have apparently
rejected?
There are better options!
Liz



>
On 10/04/2010, at 8:28 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> Liz,
>
> What do you mean by "segregation"? Would you describe croquet in
> Australia as "segregated"? It seems to me, as an outsider simply
> looking at numbers of players, that the Australian model for
> encouraging women to compete at a high level (within Australia)
> works. I'm told that they (apart from you, of course) would like the
> opportunity to compete in a similar fashion internationally.
>
> Apart from your assertions, which I believe are without foundation,
> that women will be excluded from the open event, do you have any
> other concerns about a WWAC?
>
> Keith
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Liz and Bruce Fleming
> To: Keith Aiton
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 9:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [Croquet] Proposed Women's World Championship
>
> Keith,
>
> Yes, I would love this ridiculous idea to go to bed.
>
> This is a can of worms and I am surprised and a little disappointed
> that a better solution to the problem of encouraging women has not
> been sought.
>
> Segregation is a lousy idea, is patrronizing and will certainly be
> the death of women's croquet long term.
>
> Liz
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. Stephen,

I'm wondering about all women, through the 80-plus slots usually selected
for the WCF AC Championships. This would necessarily include women and men
outside the top 50 grades. I know the numbers are likely to be fractional
compared to men, but I still wonder, tho' I'm not sure if there is a way to
accurately know the answer.

best,
Rhys First I've heard about any of this. Certainly did not come from the
ACA.

Obviously not all inclusive.

Could we see the actual survey paper and actual recorded figures please.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 9:09 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email
> to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board
> because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board
> directly.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and
> AC.
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian
> Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where,
> book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet
> but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"
>
> The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.
>
> Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour
> of the event.
>
> It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women
> playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm
> any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and
> aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.
>
> Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent
> the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success
> of women's events in Australia.
>
> Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking
> to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying
> that it is of less significance to know who the best female player
> is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who
> the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in
> the world is, is truly demeaning for women.
>
> Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not
> represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to
> expect that the female membership is represented by events that
> address their needs.
>
> I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive
> female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the
> success of the single **** events.
>
> Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow
> them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do
> whenever we can.
>
> World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe
> together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner
> of that particular event at that time.
>
> If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working
> to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the
> event would still be held and the winner would still be the World
> Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because
> he was not playing.
>
> As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set
> back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed
> up by appropriate action.
>
> Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men
> already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different
> needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities
> relevant to as many female participants as possible.
>
> That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being
> competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the
> primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World
> Champion as I'm sure many people do.
>
> Rosie
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. First I've heard about any of this. Certainly did not come from the
ACA.

Obviously not all inclusive.

Could we see the actual survey paper and actual recorded figures please.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 9:09 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email
> to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board
> because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board
> directly.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and
> AC.
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian
> Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where,
> book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet
> but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"
>
> The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.
>
> Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour
> of the event.
>
> It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women
> playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm
> any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and
> aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.
>
> Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent
> the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success
> of women's events in Australia.
>
> Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking
> to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying
> that it is of less significance to know who the best female player
> is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who
> the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in
> the world is, is truly demeaning for women.
>
> Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not
> represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to
> expect that the female membership is represented by events that
> address their needs.
>
> I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive
> female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the
> success of the single **** events.
>
> Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow
> them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do
> whenever we can.
>
> World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe
> together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner
> of that particular event at that time.
>
> If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working
> to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the
> event would still be held and the winner would still be the World
> Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because
> he was not playing.
>
> As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set
> back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed
> up by appropriate action.
>
> Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men
> already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different
> needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities
> relevant to as many female participants as possible.
>
> That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being
> competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the
> primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World
> Champion as I'm sure many people do.
>
> Rosie
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. First I've heard about any of this. Certainly did not come from the
ACA.

Obviously not all inclusive.

Could we see the actual survey paper and actual recorded figures please.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 9:09 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email
> to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board
> because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board
> directly.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and
> AC.
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian
> Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where,
> book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet
> but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"
>
> The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.
>
> Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour
> of the event.
>
> It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women
> playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm
> any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and
> aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.
>
> Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent
> the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success
> of women's events in Australia.
>
> Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking
> to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying
> that it is of less significance to know who the best female player
> is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who
> the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in
> the world is, is truly demeaning for women.
>
> Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not
> represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to
> expect that the female membership is represented by events that
> address their needs.
>
> I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive
> female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the
> success of the single **** events.
>
> Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow
> them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do
> whenever we can.
>
> World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe
> together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner
> of that particular event at that time.
>
> If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working
> to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the
> event would still be held and the winner would still be the World
> Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because
> he was not playing.
>
> As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set
> back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed
> up by appropriate action.
>
> Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men
> already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different
> needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities
> relevant to as many female participants as possible.
>
> That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being
> competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the
> primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World
> Champion as I'm sure many people do.
>
> Rosie
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe.
First I've heard about any of this. Certainly did not come from the
ACA.

Obviously not all inclusive.

Could we see the actual survey paper and actual recorded figures please.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 9:09 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email
> to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board
> because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board
> directly.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and
> AC.
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian
> Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where,
> book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet
> but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"
>
> The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.
>
> Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour
> of the event.
>
> It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women
> playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm
> any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and
> aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.
>
> Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent
> the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success
> of women's events in Australia.
>
> Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking
> to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying
> that it is of less significance to know who the best female player
> is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who
> the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in
> the world is, is truly demeaning for women.
>
> Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not
> represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to
> expect that the female membership is represented by events that
> address their needs.
>
> I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive
> female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the
> success of the single **** events.
>
> Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow
> them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do
> whenever we can.
>
> World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe
> together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner
> of that particular event at that time.
>
> If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working
> to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the
> event would still be held and the winner would still be the World
> Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because
> he was not playing.
>
> As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set
> back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed
> up by appropriate action.
>
> Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men
> already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different
> needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities
> relevant to as many female participants as possible.
>
> That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being
> competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the
> primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World
> Champion as I'm sure many people do.
>
> Rosie
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. First I've heard about any of this. Certainly did not come from the
ACA.

Obviously not all inclusive.

Could we see the actual survey paper and actual recorded figures please.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 9:09 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email
> to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board
> because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board
> directly.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and
> AC.
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian
> Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where,
> book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet
> but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"
>
> The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.
>
> Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour
> of the event.
>
> It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women
> playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm
> any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and
> aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.
>
> Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent
> the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success
> of women's events in Australia.
>
> Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking
> to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying
> that it is of less significance to know who the best female player
> is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who
> the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in
> the world is, is truly demeaning for women.
>
> Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not
> represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to
> expect that the female membership is represented by events that
> address their needs.
>
> I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive
> female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the
> success of the single **** events.
>
> Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow
> them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do
> whenever we can.
>
> World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe
> together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner
> of that particular event at that time.
>
> If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working
> to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the
> event would still be held and the winner would still be the World
> Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because
> he was not playing.
>
> As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set
> back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed
> up by appropriate action.
>
> Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men
> already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different
> needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities
> relevant to as many female participants as possible.
>
> That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being
> competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the
> primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World
> Champion as I'm sure many people do.
>
> Rosie
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. I think this contribution from Rosie is very helpful. It reflects the type of comments that were made to me by most of the ladies in November. If you live in the UK or USA it may be difficult to grasp the number of competent lady players in Australasia and their desire for competition. This is why I am in favour of exploring the level of support for Womens world events.



My concern is about how keen they are.



We had 56 players in November at Cairnlea - it was a good event that was positive for croquet, particularly in Australia. Of those 56 players, 22 were Australian, 12 were NZ and 12 were Egyptian. How many of the 34 Australasian entry will be prepared (and able) to travel to Toronto for the next Womens GC Worlds? Only time will tell, but I am concerned that there won't be half the number of entries and that we won't have 8 nations competing. I very much hope that I am wrong.



This comes back to the old question of how often should a world champs be held. There is a school of thought supported by players like Fulford/Mulliner that you hold as many as possible because it gives multiple opportunities for people to play and it doesn't matter if the event is missing a few of the top players. Then there is my view that the event should have wider spacing to allow players to plan both time and money to be able to make the event the truly world class event it should be.



The current plan seems to be to make sure that there is at least one world championship every year. 2010 is scheduled to have two world championships (August and October) and 2011 is scheduled to also have two (June and July). I would estimate the cost of Jenny and myself attending the 2011 events to be c. 20000NZD - if Jenny can get time off work.



Do other readers think the WCF is spacing these events correctly, or would they (like me) prefer a more Olympic style 4 year separation between events?



Chris







From:
To: .uk
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 00:09:00 +0100
Subject: [Croquet] Fw: Proposed Women's World Championship




I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board directly.

Keith


Hi Alix,

Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.

Cheers Rosie

I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and AC.
I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where, book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"

The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.

Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour of the event.

It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.

Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success of women's events in Australia.

Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying that it is of less significance to know who the best female player is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in the world is, is truly demeaning for women.

Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to expect that the female membership is represented by events that address their needs.

I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the success of the single **** events.

Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do whenever we can.

World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner of that particular event at that time.

If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the event would still be held and the winner would still be the World Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because he was not playing.

As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed up by appropriate action.

Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities relevant to as many female participants as possible.

That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World Champion as I'm sure many people do.

Rosie
_________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. I've been reading the emails which have been flying about the proposed
Women's AC Champs. The reason behind this appears to be a concern that
there do not appear to be enough women competing in the top level in World
Championships at present, so creating one for women will help to build up
confidence and give women something to aim for and so more will start to
play at the highest level. But this seems to me to be looking at the
problem from the wrong end of the telescope.

If there is an under represented group at the top level, then perhaps the
reasons why should be comprehensively researched: by this I don't mean
having a chat with a few folks or self selected group: I mean well
constructed, planned, in-depth research in NZ, Australia, the USA and
Britain, with robust validity and reliability, probably using both
quantitative and qualitative methods. If the WCF are serious about
developing croquet and have identified this as a concern, then perhaps it
should be using its well-filled coffers to determine what the real reasons
are. Only then can a workable solution be found – if of course there is one.
It may be that having a women's world championship is something that might
be a positive contribution, but there might be other solutions.

Of the arguments posed so far, I find that there is a dichotomy between some
claims that we need women's events to build confidence and the equally
assertive claim that there are lots of women's events in Australia which are
well supported. This is substantiated by Chris Clarke saying that outside
Australasia it is “difficult to grasp the number of competent lady players
in Australasia and their desire for competition.”. If this is so, then why
aren't more women coming through to the top of the game from Australasia?
There must be a reason, and I can't see what that is, if participation is so
wide.



It can also be argued why aren't more British women coming though? There is
a lively tournament scene here in which women play a part at all levels and
they are all mixed tournaments. Women's events are simply not supported over
here.


It might be that there are problems that have nothing to do with any of the
above. Money, time, young families, a negative attitude from governing
bodies and clubs might all contribute to the mix. If this is the case, and
Stephen Mulliner articulated many of these points above, why would simply
creating a Women’s World Championship change this?

For most sports, if you want to increase participation and quality at the
top level, you need to invest in the grass roots and local development of a
sport. As Colin Hemming stated: “I am convinced that there is an enormous
source of talent waiting to hit the top echelon of our sport if only the
custodians of the grass roots (the club secretaries and captains) take the
opportunity to release it and nurture it”. He may have a point.



For some years now, the UK has had a national lottery which has contributed
to the development in sport in this country, and the tally of Olympic medals
has significantly risen as a result. A top level event didn't need to be
created, as the Olympics have been around for over 100 years, but the
training, support and structure of the sport to produce Olympic athletes did
need to be created or significantly enhanced.

Here are a few of the areas that you’d need to study for a start.


What are the male/female participation rates in each country?
What are the membership ratios of each governing body? (if there is a type
of individual membership of course)
Who plays in tournaments?

Do those who are active tournament players only play in tournaments near
where they live? (If you live around Cheltenham/Bristol, you can get in a
lot of tournament play without having to go away from home.)
Is going to play away from home a major disincentive for any particular
group - old, young, female, etc) If so, why?

Ditto for overseas travel?

Is money a factor? (Quite probably)

Is having time a factor? (For most of us on 20 – 25 days holiday a year it
certainly is.)

Is the lack of public funding a limiting factor or doesn’t it make a huge
difference?

Where there is support from public funds is there really enough to make a
difference?

What are the reasons for women giving up the game?

What is the solution?


From what I can see, there is no inherent reason from a
strength/tactics/ability point of view why women aren’t better represented
at the top level and women have always had some representation – after all
there were women team members in the first Mac and Lily Gower won the
British Opens in the early 1900s. So why are there fewer women? A proper
look at the reason would tell us why

--
Elizabeth A Williams Now Liz, don't try to baffle the NB with sense and reason - that'll never work!

Seriously, you are quite right that, unless there is a specific urgency to "do something", there is time to do a proper analysis.

regards
Martin French
07718 630804
----- Original Message -----
From: Elizabeth Williams
To: .uk
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Croquet] Proposed Women's World Championship


I've been reading the emails which have been flying about the proposed Women's AC Champs. The reason behind this appears to be a concern that there do not appear to be enough women competing in the top level in World Championships at present, so creating one for women will help to build up confidence and give women something to aim for and so more will start to play at the highest level. But this seems to me to be looking at the problem from the wrong end of the telescope.

If there is an under represented group at the top level, then perhaps the reasons why should be comprehensively researched: by this I don't mean having a chat with a few folks or self selected group: I mean well constructed, planned, in-depth research in NZ, Australia, the USA and Britain, with robust validity and reliability, probably using both quantitative and qualitative methods. If the WCF are serious about developing croquet and have identified this as a concern, then perhaps it should be using its well-filled coffers to determine what the real reasons are. Only then can a workable solution be found – if of course there is one. It may be that having a women's world championship is something that might be a positive contribution, but there might be other solutions.

Of the arguments posed so far, I find that there is a dichotomy between some claims that we need women's events to build confidence and the equally assertive claim that there are lots of women's events in Australia which are well supported. This is substantiated by Chris Clarke saying that outside Australasia it is “difficult to grasp the number of competent lady players in Australasia and their desire for competition.”. If this is so, then why aren't more women coming through to the top of the game from Australasia? There must be a reason, and I can't see what that is, if participation is so wide.



It can also be argued why aren't more British women coming though? There is a lively tournament scene here in which women play a part at all levels and they are all mixed tournaments. Women's events are simply not supported over here.


It might be that there are problems that have nothing to do with any of the above. Money, time, young families, a negative attitude from governing bodies and clubs might all contribute to the mix. If this is the case, and Stephen Mulliner articulated many of these points above, why would simply creating a Women’s World Championship change this?

For most sports, if you want to increase participation and quality at the top level, you need to invest in the grass roots and local development of a sport. As Colin Hemming stated: “I am convinced that there is an enormous source of talent waiting to hit the top echelon of our sport if only the custodians of the grass roots (the club secretaries and captains) take the opportunity to release it and nurture it”. He may have a point.



For some years now, the UK has had a national lottery which has contributed to the development in sport in this country, and the tally of Olympic medals has significantly risen as a result. A top level event didn't need to be created, as the Olympics have been around for over 100 years, but the training, support and structure of the sport to produce Olympic athletes did need to be created or significantly enhanced.

Here are a few of the areas that you’d need to study for a start.


What are the male/female participation rates in each country?
What are the membership ratios of each governing body? (if there is a type of individual membership of course)
Who plays in tournaments?

Do those who are active tournament players only play in tournaments near where they live? (If you live around Cheltenham/Bristol, you can get in a lot of tournament play without having to go away from home.)
Is going to play away from home a major disincentive for any particular group - old, young, female, etc) If so, why?

Ditto for overseas travel?

Is money a factor? (Quite probably)

Is having time a factor? (For most of us on 20 – 25 days holiday a year it certainly is.)

Is the lack of public funding a limiting factor or doesn’t it make a huge difference?

Where there is support from public funds is there really enough to make a difference?

What are the reasons for women giving up the game?

What is the solution?



From what I can see, there is no inherent reason from a strength/tactics/ability point of view why women aren’t better represented at the top level and women have always had some representation – after all there were women team members in the first Mac and Lily Gower won the British Opens in the early 1900s. So why are there fewer women? A proper look at the reason would tell us why

--
Elizabeth A Williams



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. Rosemary's letter is an interesting contribution to the debate, but is,
as yet, merely anecdotal. The important question that needs to be asked
in such surveys is "are you prepared to cross the world to play in such
an event?".

I'm sure that lots of Australian women would enter a WWAC event *in
Australia*, just as lots of Australian women entered the WWGC event in
Melbourne. Yet only four Australian women entered the WWGC in Dublin two
years earlier. I fear that without the support of the Egyptians WWGC
events would be unsustainable; i.e., they would likely end up with half
the entries being local.

To have credibility, any "World Championship" needs to attract something
like half or more of the top ten players in the world.

Evidence in Britain is that our top women players like to enter the
Women's Championship once or twice, not least because the trophies (a
cup, a casket, and a locket) are the best in the world. Once they've got
their name on the trophies they prefer to compete against the top men
instead. I fear a WWAC will suffer the same fate.

Martin Murray

Keith Aiton wrote:
> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email to
> her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board because
> apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board directly.
>
>
>
> Keith
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
>
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
>
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
>
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and AC.
>
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian Women's
> Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where, book me in
> now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet but wow,that will
> be something to look forward to!"
>




_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. On Apr 9, 2010, at 11:56 PM, chris clarke wrote:

> If you live in the UK or USA it may be difficult to grasp the number of competent lady players in Australasia and their desire for competition. This is why I am in favour of exploring the level of support for Womens world events.


I am all in favor of exploring the level of support for it. As you say, the picture is very different in the US. Eileen ran a women's open for a few years, in part as a charity fundraiser but mainly as an attempt to provide a congenial event for women keen to improve and compete at top level. Unfortunately while it was successful as a fundraiser, as a competition it did not attract enough of the top North American women players to meet Eileen's main goal, so she stopped running it (my views; I am not speaking for Eileen). One problem is that such an event requires the top women to attend to be successful, but those are the very players who are already most competitive in open events, hence tend to share Liz's view.

--
Jeff Soo





_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe.

I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board directly.



Keith





Hi Alix,



Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.



Cheers Rosie



I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and AC.

I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where, book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"



The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.



Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour of the event.



It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.



Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success of women's events in Australia.



Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying that it is of less significance to know who the best female player is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in the world is, is truly demeaning for women.



Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to expect that the female membership is represented by events that address their needs.



I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the success of the single **** events.



Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do whenever we can.



World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner of that particular event at that time.



If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the event would still be held and the winner would still be the World Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because he was not playing.



As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed up by appropriate action.



Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities relevant to as many female participants as possible.



That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World Champion as I'm sure many people do.


Rosie Keith,

I tell you what I will do; you give me evidence of the "demand" you
claim and I will work on a figure for you. It would appear NZ already
have a figure of 8 countries/nations so that's a start for you.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 8:21 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> Liz,
>
> Can you answer the question I asked?
>
> "Just how much demand will you regard as sufficient? Do you have a
> number in mind, or a list of top women players who must support it,
> or what?"
>
> Keith
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Liz and Bruce Fleming
> To: Keith Aiton
> Cc: Nottingham Board
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 9:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [Croquet] Proposed Women's World Championship
>
> Keith,
>
> Calm down, calm down. I'm not noted for calm down when I have to
> deal with men who believe they know what's good for every women in
> the world.
>
> How long will it be before you simply show us what you claim to
> have. You claim this proposal came about due to "demand" and .I
> and the WCF MC all know that is not the case. You have not so far
> come up with the goods, all you offer is a group 5/6 (or whatever
> number they were this last time) sitting upstairs in a little room
> during a Golf Event deciding they know best.
>
> The original proposal, which has not altered, was rejected as I
> quoted previously. What's changed? What other considerations have
> there been? What survey has been conducted outside Australasia to
> estimate the level of interest?
>
> So far all you have is a group of men sitting in a little room
> together deciding what is best for the girls.
>
> I did not miss the fact the boys had their meeting at Cairnlea. In
> fact I was sat on the balcony right outside the big glass window
> whilst it was going on. There was no consultation with the women
> even then! Even when we were all their, yards away. The boys knew
> best!
>
> Ketih you are on the WCF MC and obviously we now all know you have
> your own view of women in croquet and I think you have made it very
> clear what that is.
> Unfortunately for we women you have a vote and there is not even one
> token women on the WCF MC to speak out there so we will get what you
> boys decide.
>
> Liz
>
>
>
>
> On 09/04/2010, at 7:42 PM, Keith Aiton wrote:
>
>> Liz,
>>
>> Do try and calm down, and read what I wrote. I mentioned a WCFMC
>> meeting in November 2009, held during the WWGC event. That's
>> November 2009, in case you missed it the first time. That's just
>> over four months ago, not four and a half years ago.
>>
>> By the way, just how much demand will you regard as sufficient? Do
>> you have a number in mind, or a list of top women players who must
>> support it, or what?
>>
>> Keith
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. Keith,

There you go again: "you are told that they (apart from you, of
course) would like the opportunity to compete in a similar fashion
internationally."
Who has told you that?
What similar fashion are you talking about now?
Similar fashion to what?
Australian women and all Australasian women have the opportunity of
entering women's events all around the world already - they don't
travel to enter them.

The Australian Association has not asked the players in Australia. In
fact they dropped the whole idea of a Womens World's a few years ago
when it did not receive support from the WCFMC of the time. The men
spoken to at Cairnlea only supported David Openshaw and Charles Jones
when told it was an Australia idea in the first place and they ought
to still support it. I did not see any support from Australia listed
on the WCF site when postings could have been made.



I really have nothing more to say to you Keith on the subject, I
believe you have my view.
Come up with the evidence for World demand outside Australasia and let
everyone work from there.
NZ have already said there should be 8 countries/nations for funding
purposes.
8 'Others' and The Big Four must all at the very least support it. -
One does, one can't make it's mind up and hasn't asked any of it's
players and two say no.

The WCF in 2005 said there were better options; what options have you
the WCFMC been looking into since that time, that you have apparently
rejected?
There are better options!
Liz



>
On 10/04/2010, at 8:28 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> Liz,
>
> What do you mean by "segregation"? Would you describe croquet in
> Australia as "segregated"? It seems to me, as an outsider simply
> looking at numbers of players, that the Australian model for
> encouraging women to compete at a high level (within Australia)
> works. I'm told that they (apart from you, of course) would like the
> opportunity to compete in a similar fashion internationally.
>
> Apart from your assertions, which I believe are without foundation,
> that women will be excluded from the open event, do you have any
> other concerns about a WWAC?
>
> Keith
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Liz and Bruce Fleming
> To: Keith Aiton
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 9:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [Croquet] Proposed Women's World Championship
>
> Keith,
>
> Yes, I would love this ridiculous idea to go to bed.
>
> This is a can of worms and I am surprised and a little disappointed
> that a better solution to the problem of encouraging women has not
> been sought.
>
> Segregation is a lousy idea, is patrronizing and will certainly be
> the death of women's croquet long term.
>
> Liz
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. Stephen,

I'm wondering about all women, through the 80-plus slots usually selected
for the WCF AC Championships. This would necessarily include women and men
outside the top 50 grades. I know the numbers are likely to be fractional
compared to men, but I still wonder, tho' I'm not sure if there is a way to
accurately know the answer.

best,
Rhys First I've heard about any of this. Certainly did not come from the
ACA.

Obviously not all inclusive.

Could we see the actual survey paper and actual recorded figures please.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 9:09 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email
> to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board
> because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board
> directly.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and
> AC.
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian
> Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where,
> book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet
> but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"
>
> The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.
>
> Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour
> of the event.
>
> It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women
> playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm
> any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and
> aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.
>
> Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent
> the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success
> of women's events in Australia.
>
> Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking
> to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying
> that it is of less significance to know who the best female player
> is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who
> the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in
> the world is, is truly demeaning for women.
>
> Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not
> represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to
> expect that the female membership is represented by events that
> address their needs.
>
> I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive
> female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the
> success of the single **** events.
>
> Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow
> them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do
> whenever we can.
>
> World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe
> together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner
> of that particular event at that time.
>
> If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working
> to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the
> event would still be held and the winner would still be the World
> Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because
> he was not playing.
>
> As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set
> back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed
> up by appropriate action.
>
> Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men
> already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different
> needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities
> relevant to as many female participants as possible.
>
> That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being
> competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the
> primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World
> Champion as I'm sure many people do.
>
> Rosie
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. First I've heard about any of this. Certainly did not come from the
ACA.

Obviously not all inclusive.

Could we see the actual survey paper and actual recorded figures please.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 9:09 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email
> to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board
> because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board
> directly.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and
> AC.
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian
> Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where,
> book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet
> but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"
>
> The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.
>
> Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour
> of the event.
>
> It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women
> playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm
> any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and
> aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.
>
> Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent
> the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success
> of women's events in Australia.
>
> Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking
> to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying
> that it is of less significance to know who the best female player
> is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who
> the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in
> the world is, is truly demeaning for women.
>
> Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not
> represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to
> expect that the female membership is represented by events that
> address their needs.
>
> I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive
> female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the
> success of the single **** events.
>
> Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow
> them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do
> whenever we can.
>
> World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe
> together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner
> of that particular event at that time.
>
> If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working
> to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the
> event would still be held and the winner would still be the World
> Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because
> he was not playing.
>
> As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set
> back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed
> up by appropriate action.
>
> Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men
> already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different
> needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities
> relevant to as many female participants as possible.
>
> That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being
> competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the
> primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World
> Champion as I'm sure many people do.
>
> Rosie
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. First I've heard about any of this. Certainly did not come from the
ACA.

Obviously not all inclusive.

Could we see the actual survey paper and actual recorded figures please.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 9:09 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email
> to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board
> because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board
> directly.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and
> AC.
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian
> Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where,
> book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet
> but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"
>
> The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.
>
> Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour
> of the event.
>
> It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women
> playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm
> any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and
> aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.
>
> Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent
> the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success
> of women's events in Australia.
>
> Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking
> to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying
> that it is of less significance to know who the best female player
> is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who
> the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in
> the world is, is truly demeaning for women.
>
> Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not
> represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to
> expect that the female membership is represented by events that
> address their needs.
>
> I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive
> female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the
> success of the single **** events.
>
> Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow
> them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do
> whenever we can.
>
> World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe
> together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner
> of that particular event at that time.
>
> If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working
> to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the
> event would still be held and the winner would still be the World
> Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because
> he was not playing.
>
> As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set
> back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed
> up by appropriate action.
>
> Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men
> already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different
> needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities
> relevant to as many female participants as possible.
>
> That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being
> competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the
> primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World
> Champion as I'm sure many people do.
>
> Rosie
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe.
First I've heard about any of this. Certainly did not come from the
ACA.

Obviously not all inclusive.

Could we see the actual survey paper and actual recorded figures please.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 9:09 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email
> to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board
> because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board
> directly.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and
> AC.
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian
> Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where,
> book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet
> but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"
>
> The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.
>
> Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour
> of the event.
>
> It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women
> playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm
> any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and
> aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.
>
> Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent
> the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success
> of women's events in Australia.
>
> Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking
> to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying
> that it is of less significance to know who the best female player
> is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who
> the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in
> the world is, is truly demeaning for women.
>
> Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not
> represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to
> expect that the female membership is represented by events that
> address their needs.
>
> I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive
> female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the
> success of the single **** events.
>
> Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow
> them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do
> whenever we can.
>
> World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe
> together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner
> of that particular event at that time.
>
> If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working
> to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the
> event would still be held and the winner would still be the World
> Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because
> he was not playing.
>
> As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set
> back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed
> up by appropriate action.
>
> Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men
> already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different
> needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities
> relevant to as many female participants as possible.
>
> That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being
> competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the
> primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World
> Champion as I'm sure many people do.
>
> Rosie
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. First I've heard about any of this. Certainly did not come from the
ACA.

Obviously not all inclusive.

Could we see the actual survey paper and actual recorded figures please.

Liz


On 10/04/2010, at 9:09 AM, Keith Aiton wrote:

> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email
> to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board
> because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board
> directly.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and
> AC.
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian
> Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where,
> book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet
> but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"
>
> The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.
>
> Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour
> of the event.
>
> It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women
> playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm
> any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and
> aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.
>
> Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent
> the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success
> of women's events in Australia.
>
> Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking
> to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying
> that it is of less significance to know who the best female player
> is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who
> the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in
> the world is, is truly demeaning for women.
>
> Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not
> represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to
> expect that the female membership is represented by events that
> address their needs.
>
> I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive
> female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the
> success of the single **** events.
>
> Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow
> them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do
> whenever we can.
>
> World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe
> together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner
> of that particular event at that time.
>
> If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working
> to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the
> event would still be held and the winner would still be the World
> Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because
> he was not playing.
>
> As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set
> back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed
> up by appropriate action.
>
> Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men
> already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different
> needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities
> relevant to as many female participants as possible.
>
> That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being
> competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the
> primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World
> Champion as I'm sure many people do.
>
> Rosie
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. I think this contribution from Rosie is very helpful. It reflects the type of comments that were made to me by most of the ladies in November. If you live in the UK or USA it may be difficult to grasp the number of competent lady players in Australasia and their desire for competition. This is why I am in favour of exploring the level of support for Womens world events.



My concern is about how keen they are.



We had 56 players in November at Cairnlea - it was a good event that was positive for croquet, particularly in Australia. Of those 56 players, 22 were Australian, 12 were NZ and 12 were Egyptian. How many of the 34 Australasian entry will be prepared (and able) to travel to Toronto for the next Womens GC Worlds? Only time will tell, but I am concerned that there won't be half the number of entries and that we won't have 8 nations competing. I very much hope that I am wrong.



This comes back to the old question of how often should a world champs be held. There is a school of thought supported by players like Fulford/Mulliner that you hold as many as possible because it gives multiple opportunities for people to play and it doesn't matter if the event is missing a few of the top players. Then there is my view that the event should have wider spacing to allow players to plan both time and money to be able to make the event the truly world class event it should be.



The current plan seems to be to make sure that there is at least one world championship every year. 2010 is scheduled to have two world championships (August and October) and 2011 is scheduled to also have two (June and July). I would estimate the cost of Jenny and myself attending the 2011 events to be c. 20000NZD - if Jenny can get time off work.



Do other readers think the WCF is spacing these events correctly, or would they (like me) prefer a more Olympic style 4 year separation between events?



Chris







From:
To: .uk
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 00:09:00 +0100
Subject: [Croquet] Fw: Proposed Women's World Championship




I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email to her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board because apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board directly.

Keith


Hi Alix,

Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.

Cheers Rosie

I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and AC.
I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian Women's Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where, book me in now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet but wow,that will be something to look forward to!"

The women I spoke to all play in both women's and open events.

Of the 22 responses I have received so far all have been in favour of the event.

It is probably pretty reasonable/obvious to expect a group of women playing in a women's event to be supportive, but is that enthusiasm any less relevant given that they play in all types of events and aspire to be better and more competitive like any other player.

Dismissing responses from Australian women because they represent the bulk of female players is unfair and denies the obvious success of women's events in Australia.

Women's World's Events are by the very nature of the title, looking to find the best woman the in the world against other women, saying that it is of less significance to know who the best female player is among her peers, than it is to know who the best team is or who the best overall player is or indeed who the best junior player in the world is, is truly demeaning for women.

Given that the numbers of affiliated female players does not represent a minority within the sport, surely it is not too much to expect that the female membership is represented by events that address their needs.

I would put it to you that the strength of numbers of competitive female players in Australia has evolved in large part because of the success of the single **** events.

Not all female players have the opportunities/ resources that allow them to attend world class events, single **** or open, but we do whenever we can.

World's events are played to bring players from all around the globe together to play, we then declare the best player to be the winner of that particular event at that time.

If Chris were not able to attend that event because he was working to support Jenny who was playing, a few may be disappointed, but the event would still be held and the winner would still be the World Champion, even if Chris felt the tournament was less valid because he was not playing.

As a feminist I certainly reject any claims that women's events set back the cause of equality, equality is merely a word unless backed up by appropriate action.

Equality particularly in sport is not about offering women what men already have, rather it should seek to acknowledge the different needs and wants of women [not lesser] as well as offer opportunities relevant to as many female participants as possible.

That the Women's World Event produces women who progress to being competitive in open events is a bonus but not necessarily the primary objective. We want to know who really is the Women"s World Champion as I'm sure many people do.

Rosie
_________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. I've been reading the emails which have been flying about the proposed
Women's AC Champs. The reason behind this appears to be a concern that
there do not appear to be enough women competing in the top level in World
Championships at present, so creating one for women will help to build up
confidence and give women something to aim for and so more will start to
play at the highest level. But this seems to me to be looking at the
problem from the wrong end of the telescope.

If there is an under represented group at the top level, then perhaps the
reasons why should be comprehensively researched: by this I don't mean
having a chat with a few folks or self selected group: I mean well
constructed, planned, in-depth research in NZ, Australia, the USA and
Britain, with robust validity and reliability, probably using both
quantitative and qualitative methods. If the WCF are serious about
developing croquet and have identified this as a concern, then perhaps it
should be using its well-filled coffers to determine what the real reasons
are. Only then can a workable solution be found – if of course there is one.
It may be that having a women's world championship is something that might
be a positive contribution, but there might be other solutions.

Of the arguments posed so far, I find that there is a dichotomy between some
claims that we need women's events to build confidence and the equally
assertive claim that there are lots of women's events in Australia which are
well supported. This is substantiated by Chris Clarke saying that outside
Australasia it is “difficult to grasp the number of competent lady players
in Australasia and their desire for competition.”. If this is so, then why
aren't more women coming through to the top of the game from Australasia?
There must be a reason, and I can't see what that is, if participation is so
wide.



It can also be argued why aren't more British women coming though? There is
a lively tournament scene here in which women play a part at all levels and
they are all mixed tournaments. Women's events are simply not supported over
here.


It might be that there are problems that have nothing to do with any of the
above. Money, time, young families, a negative attitude from governing
bodies and clubs might all contribute to the mix. If this is the case, and
Stephen Mulliner articulated many of these points above, why would simply
creating a Women’s World Championship change this?

For most sports, if you want to increase participation and quality at the
top level, you need to invest in the grass roots and local development of a
sport. As Colin Hemming stated: “I am convinced that there is an enormous
source of talent waiting to hit the top echelon of our sport if only the
custodians of the grass roots (the club secretaries and captains) take the
opportunity to release it and nurture it”. He may have a point.



For some years now, the UK has had a national lottery which has contributed
to the development in sport in this country, and the tally of Olympic medals
has significantly risen as a result. A top level event didn't need to be
created, as the Olympics have been around for over 100 years, but the
training, support and structure of the sport to produce Olympic athletes did
need to be created or significantly enhanced.

Here are a few of the areas that you’d need to study for a start.


What are the male/female participation rates in each country?
What are the membership ratios of each governing body? (if there is a type
of individual membership of course)
Who plays in tournaments?

Do those who are active tournament players only play in tournaments near
where they live? (If you live around Cheltenham/Bristol, you can get in a
lot of tournament play without having to go away from home.)
Is going to play away from home a major disincentive for any particular
group - old, young, female, etc) If so, why?

Ditto for overseas travel?

Is money a factor? (Quite probably)

Is having time a factor? (For most of us on 20 – 25 days holiday a year it
certainly is.)

Is the lack of public funding a limiting factor or doesn’t it make a huge
difference?

Where there is support from public funds is there really enough to make a
difference?

What are the reasons for women giving up the game?

What is the solution?


From what I can see, there is no inherent reason from a
strength/tactics/ability point of view why women aren’t better represented
at the top level and women have always had some representation – after all
there were women team members in the first Mac and Lily Gower won the
British Opens in the early 1900s. So why are there fewer women? A proper
look at the reason would tell us why

--
Elizabeth A Williams Now Liz, don't try to baffle the NB with sense and reason - that'll never work!

Seriously, you are quite right that, unless there is a specific urgency to "do something", there is time to do a proper analysis.

regards
Martin French
07718 630804
----- Original Message -----
From: Elizabeth Williams
To: .uk
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Croquet] Proposed Women's World Championship


I've been reading the emails which have been flying about the proposed Women's AC Champs. The reason behind this appears to be a concern that there do not appear to be enough women competing in the top level in World Championships at present, so creating one for women will help to build up confidence and give women something to aim for and so more will start to play at the highest level. But this seems to me to be looking at the problem from the wrong end of the telescope.

If there is an under represented group at the top level, then perhaps the reasons why should be comprehensively researched: by this I don't mean having a chat with a few folks or self selected group: I mean well constructed, planned, in-depth research in NZ, Australia, the USA and Britain, with robust validity and reliability, probably using both quantitative and qualitative methods. If the WCF are serious about developing croquet and have identified this as a concern, then perhaps it should be using its well-filled coffers to determine what the real reasons are. Only then can a workable solution be found – if of course there is one. It may be that having a women's world championship is something that might be a positive contribution, but there might be other solutions.

Of the arguments posed so far, I find that there is a dichotomy between some claims that we need women's events to build confidence and the equally assertive claim that there are lots of women's events in Australia which are well supported. This is substantiated by Chris Clarke saying that outside Australasia it is “difficult to grasp the number of competent lady players in Australasia and their desire for competition.”. If this is so, then why aren't more women coming through to the top of the game from Australasia? There must be a reason, and I can't see what that is, if participation is so wide.



It can also be argued why aren't more British women coming though? There is a lively tournament scene here in which women play a part at all levels and they are all mixed tournaments. Women's events are simply not supported over here.


It might be that there are problems that have nothing to do with any of the above. Money, time, young families, a negative attitude from governing bodies and clubs might all contribute to the mix. If this is the case, and Stephen Mulliner articulated many of these points above, why would simply creating a Women’s World Championship change this?

For most sports, if you want to increase participation and quality at the top level, you need to invest in the grass roots and local development of a sport. As Colin Hemming stated: “I am convinced that there is an enormous source of talent waiting to hit the top echelon of our sport if only the custodians of the grass roots (the club secretaries and captains) take the opportunity to release it and nurture it”. He may have a point.



For some years now, the UK has had a national lottery which has contributed to the development in sport in this country, and the tally of Olympic medals has significantly risen as a result. A top level event didn't need to be created, as the Olympics have been around for over 100 years, but the training, support and structure of the sport to produce Olympic athletes did need to be created or significantly enhanced.

Here are a few of the areas that you’d need to study for a start.


What are the male/female participation rates in each country?
What are the membership ratios of each governing body? (if there is a type of individual membership of course)
Who plays in tournaments?

Do those who are active tournament players only play in tournaments near where they live? (If you live around Cheltenham/Bristol, you can get in a lot of tournament play without having to go away from home.)
Is going to play away from home a major disincentive for any particular group - old, young, female, etc) If so, why?

Ditto for overseas travel?

Is money a factor? (Quite probably)

Is having time a factor? (For most of us on 20 – 25 days holiday a year it certainly is.)

Is the lack of public funding a limiting factor or doesn’t it make a huge difference?

Where there is support from public funds is there really enough to make a difference?

What are the reasons for women giving up the game?

What is the solution?



From what I can see, there is no inherent reason from a strength/tactics/ability point of view why women aren’t better represented at the top level and women have always had some representation – after all there were women team members in the first Mac and Lily Gower won the British Opens in the early 1900s. So why are there fewer women? A proper look at the reason would tell us why

--
Elizabeth A Williams



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. Rosemary's letter is an interesting contribution to the debate, but is,
as yet, merely anecdotal. The important question that needs to be asked
in such surveys is "are you prepared to cross the world to play in such
an event?".

I'm sure that lots of Australian women would enter a WWAC event *in
Australia*, just as lots of Australian women entered the WWGC event in
Melbourne. Yet only four Australian women entered the WWGC in Dublin two
years earlier. I fear that without the support of the Egyptians WWGC
events would be unsustainable; i.e., they would likely end up with half
the entries being local.

To have credibility, any "World Championship" needs to attract something
like half or more of the top ten players in the world.

Evidence in Britain is that our top women players like to enter the
Women's Championship once or twice, not least because the trophies (a
cup, a casket, and a locket) are the best in the world. Once they've got
their name on the trophies they prefer to compete against the top men
instead. I fear a WWAC will suffer the same fate.

Martin Murray

Keith Aiton wrote:
> I received a copy of this email from Alix Verge (forwarding an email to
> her from Rosemary Graham), and am forwarding it to the Board because
> apparently something has stopped it appearing on the Board directly.
>
>
>
> Keith
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Alix,
>
>
>
> Could you forward the below to the Nottingham List for me please.
>
>
>
> Cheers Rosie
>
>
>
> I am very much in favour of holding Women's World's Events in GC and AC.
>
> I have surveyed 32 women who played in the recent Australian Women's
> Open and Interstate Cup. Responses varied from"when, where, book me in
> now" to "I'm not certain I am a good enough player yet but wow,that will
> be something to look forward to!"
>




_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. On Apr 9, 2010, at 11:56 PM, chris clarke wrote:

> If you live in the UK or USA it may be difficult to grasp the number of competent lady players in Australasia and their desire for competition. This is why I am in favour of exploring the level of support for Womens world events.


I am all in favor of exploring the level of support for it. As you say, the picture is very different in the US. Eileen ran a women's open for a few years, in part as a charity fundraiser but mainly as an attempt to provide a congenial event for women keen to improve and compete at top level. Unfortunately while it was successful as a fundraiser, as a competition it did not attract enough of the top North American women players to meet Eileen's main goal, so she stopped running it (my views; I am not speaking for Eileen). One problem is that such an event requires the top women to attend to be successful, but those are the very players who are already most competitive in open events, hence tend to share Liz's view.

--
Jeff Soo





_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Croquet mailing list. Go to http://nottingham-lists.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/croquet to subscribe. http://wcfcroquet.org/Tournaments/macshield1937.htm



English croquet player with no ****: 5

Fully endowed Australian gentlemen: 0



I agree that recently there haven't been many top level women on the
world scene, but that doesn't affect my point that there is no inherent
reason why a female croquet player should be necessarily seen as
second-class. In fact, I would be very interested in reasons why people
think that women are so disadvantaged in the game of croquet that they
deserve an additional world-level competition. It may in some cases (not
yours, I am sure, Keith) bring forth some questionable opinions of the
sort that used to keep women out of all sorts of roles for which they
are, as fully fledged human beings, eminently suitable.



Cheers,



Sam



-----Original Message-----
From: croquet-.uk
[mailto:croquet-.uk] On Behalf Of Keith
Aiton
Sent: 09 April 2010 19:51
To: .uk
Subject: Re: [Croquet] Proposed Women's World Championship



Which "history" is that, Sam? At the last AC worlds there were 3 women
out of 80, the one before that 4 out of 80, and the one before that 5
out of 80. It may theoretically be the case that croquet can be played
"on equal terms" by men and women. "History", at least recent history,
shows that currently it isn't.



Keith

----- Original Message -----

From: Tudor, Samuel

To: .uk

Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 11:37 AM

Subject: Re: [Croquet] Proposed Women's World Championship



In what way is a mixed doubles championship not patronising? It
indicates that one of the sexes is assumed to be weaker than the other,
otherwise why the restriction on having two men or two women? History
shows that women are not inherently weaker at croquet, and I certainly
agree that it is patronising to suggest that they are.



My vote is for no gender discrimination within the world of
croquet at all.