A local fella called me today wanting to discuss why he dragged over the weekend during the somewhat rough weather that we had here. Thought I might post the salient points in case there might be something to be learned.
 
His boat is a 36 foot sloop, the winds around 40 knots sustained. With the winds out of the east to north, the anchorages in this area were well protected from storm surge, getting maybe 1 foot or less of additional height, over the typical 18"-24" of tide. Not much in the way of wave action either.
 
Starting from scratch, here's how we went about evaluating his technique. A 36' typical sailboat in 40 knot winds with moderate protection from seas could expect about 1600 lb load on his ground tackle. Add in wind gusts and the load could typically be 2200 lbs and occassionally as high as 3000 lbs. Being tucked up in one of the bayous could reduce these loads, but then, too, should the wind shift and come at him right up from the open end, he might very well experience these loads, so why try and get away with less.
 
For a rode, if he sized his rope to not exceed 15% of its tensile strength, he should have used somewhere around 7/8", 3-strand nylon (8 or 12 brait would also be acceptable). Snubbers of the same diameter and 40 foot long should have been sufficient, installing a main snubber and a back up snubber, each secured on the boat at different locations. Instead, he used 1/2" for everything which showed considerable damage.
 
Chain was not necessary, as there was nothing on the bottom where he anchored that could have chafed his rode, but if he were to use some chain, 3/8" Proof Coil or BBB would have been adequate, though going up one more size to 7/16" would have provided some extra tolerance should the storm have changed destinations or become much stronger. Suggested Proof Coil or BBB as gettting shackles of the same strength to fit would pose no problems. 5/16 High Test chain would also suffice, but finding strong enough shackles to fit, at the last minute, might prove to be problamatic, so better to use Proof Coil or BBB unless adequate time to match all of the component's strenght was available.
 
For rope of this size, the 6" "mild weather" cleats on his boat needs to be changed out to bigger cleats, at least 12" in length and 14" would be better.
 
His biggest problem, and the cause of his dragging was his anchor. He had a plow anchor that was around 35 lbs. In these conditions, a 45 pounder would have been a minimum size to have, if in sand, but anchored in a soft bottom, his anchor should have been even bigger, more in the size range of 60-70 lbs. He wasn't aware that an anchor had to be bigger to have the same holding power in a soft bottom and it does in sand. Also, being in a soft bottom, the fluke angle on the plow is not optumim, thus necessitating an even larger anchor. That's the nice thing about Fortress and SuperMax anchors, they flukes that can be adjusted for the bottom conditons, optimizing their performance, but both still need to be sized to wind speed, bottom conditions and boat size.
 
Couldn't find anything wrong with his scope, being in about 10 feet of water, 2 foot tide, 1 foot storm surge, 4 foot freeboard and minimal bury of his anchor (maybe a foot or two). He claims that he put out about 200 feet of rode. Though his rode wasn't marked, he had measured the rode and put it all out.
 
Keep in mind that we were discussing minimum gear for these conditions; should the storm have been stronger and his protection less, bigger would have been indicated.
 
As we went over these ideas, I could see the typical "but that's going to cost so much money" glaze come over his eyes. No doubt it'll take another storm or two before he fully believes that he should find the money, but until then, I pointed out a better bayou to anchor in... one that Jill and I won't be using.
 
Rudy
Briney Bug- Panama City, Fl
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A local fella called me today wanting to discuss why he dragged over the weekend during the somewhat rough weather that we had here. Thought I might post the salient points in case there might be something to be learned.
 
His boat is a 36 foot sloop, the winds around 40 knots sustained. With the winds out of the east to north, the anchorages in this area were well protected from storm surge, getting maybe 1 foot or less of additional height, over the typical 18"-24" of tide. Not much in the way of wave action either.
 
Starting from scratch, here's how we went about evaluating his technique. A 36' typical sailboat in 40 knot winds with moderate protection from seas could expect about 1600 lb load on his ground tackle. Add in wind gusts and the load could typically be 2200 lbs and occassionally as high as 3000 lbs. Being tucked up in one of the bayous could reduce these loads, but then, too, should the wind shift and come at him right up from the open end, he might very well experience these loads, so why try and get away with less.
 
For a rode, if he sized his rope to not exceed 15% of its tensile strength, he should have used somewhere around 7/8", 3-strand nylon (8 or 12 brait would also be acceptable). Snubbers of the same diameter and 40 foot long should have been sufficient, installing a main snubber and a back up snubber, each secured on the boat at different locations. Instead, he used 1/2" for everything which showed considerable damage.
 
Chain was not necessary, as there was nothing on the bottom where he anchored that could have chafed his rode, but if he were to use some chain, 3/8" Proof Coil or BBB would have been adequate, though going up one more size to 7/16" would have provided some extra tolerance should the storm have changed destinations or become much stronger. Suggested Proof Coil or BBB as gettting shackles of the same strength to fit would pose no problems. 5/16 High Test chain would also suffice, but finding strong enough shackles to fit, at the last minute, might prove to be problamatic, so better to use Proof Coil or BBB unless adequate time to match all of the component's strenght was available.
 
For rope of this size, the 6" "mild weather" cleats on his boat needs to be changed out to bigger cleats, at least 12" in length and 14" would be better.
 
His biggest problem, and the cause of his dragging was his anchor. He had a plow anchor that was around 35 lbs. In these conditions, a 45 pounder would have been a minimum size to have, if in sand, but anchored in a soft bottom, his anchor should have been even bigger, more in the size range of 60-70 lbs. He wasn't aware that an anchor had to be bigger to have the same holding power in a soft bottom and it does in sand. Also, being in a soft bottom, the fluke angle on the plow is not optumim, thus necessitating an even larger anchor. That's the nice thing about Fortress and SuperMax anchors, they flukes that can be adjusted for the bottom conditons, optimizing their performance, but both still need to be sized to wind speed, bottom conditions and boat size.
 
Couldn't find anything wrong with his scope, being in about 10 feet of water, 2 foot tide, 1 foot storm surge, 4 foot freeboard and minimal bury of his anchor (maybe a foot or two). He claims that he put out about 200 feet of rode. Though his rode wasn't marked, he had measured the rode and put it all out.
 
Keep in mind that we were discussing minimum gear for these conditions; should the storm have been stronger and his protection less, bigger would have been indicated.
 
As we went over these ideas, I could see the typical "but that's going to cost so much money" glaze come over his eyes. No doubt it'll take another storm or two before he fully believes that he should find the money, but until then, I pointed out a better bayou to anchor in... one that Jill and I won't be using.
 
Rudy
Briney Bug- Panama City, Fl
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Rudy,
What's the basis for 15%? 7/8" is mighty big and hard to handle. I think
that you glossed over the factors that make a cleat fitting adequate. I
think that you would agree the cleat should be made out of SS or bronze.
It's size is dictated by the largest line you are going to use. Cleats with
integral machine bolts are stronger in attachment that ones with feet that
require a number of small diameter bolts. Regardless of style, a thick
large SS or aluminum backing plate is fundamental to the attachment of any
fitting which takes a load. Both the cleat and the backing plate should be
bedded - probably in 5200. Fender washers with split washers and a locking
nut should be used. Some people don't like Nyloc nuts and use double nuts
or a lock thread material.
Ron Rogers
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)

A local fella called me today wanting to discuss why he dragged over the weekend during the somewhat rough weather that we had here. Thought I might post the salient points in case there might be something to be learned.
 
His boat is a 36 foot sloop, the winds around 40 knots sustained. With the winds out of the east to north, the anchorages in this area were well protected from storm surge, getting maybe 1 foot or less of additional height, over the typical 18"-24" of tide. Not much in the way of wave action either.
 
Starting from scratch, here's how we went about evaluating his technique. A 36' typical sailboat in 40 knot winds with moderate protection from seas could expect about 1600 lb load on his ground tackle. Add in wind gusts and the load could typically be 2200 lbs and occassionally as high as 3000 lbs. Being tucked up in one of the bayous could reduce these loads, but then, too, should the wind shift and come at him right up from the open end, he might very well experience these loads, so why try and get away with less.
 
For a rode, if he sized his rope to not exceed 15% of its tensile strength, he should have used somewhere around 7/8", 3-strand nylon (8 or 12 brait would also be acceptable). Snubbers of the same diameter and 40 foot long should have been sufficient, installing a main snubber and a back up snubber, each secured on the boat at different locations. Instead, he used 1/2" for everything which showed considerable damage.
 
Chain was not necessary, as there was nothing on the bottom where he anchored that could have chafed his rode, but if he were to use some chain, 3/8" Proof Coil or BBB would have been adequate, though going up one more size to 7/16" would have provided some extra tolerance should the storm have changed destinations or become much stronger. Suggested Proof Coil or BBB as gettting shackles of the same strength to fit would pose no problems. 5/16 High Test chain would also suffice, but finding strong enough shackles to fit, at the last minute, might prove to be problamatic, so better to use Proof Coil or BBB unless adequate time to match all of the component's strenght was available.
 
For rope of this size, the 6" "mild weather" cleats on his boat needs to be changed out to bigger cleats, at least 12" in length and 14" would be better.
 
His biggest problem, and the cause of his dragging was his anchor. He had a plow anchor that was around 35 lbs. In these conditions, a 45 pounder would have been a minimum size to have, if in sand, but anchored in a soft bottom, his anchor should have been even bigger, more in the size range of 60-70 lbs. He wasn't aware that an anchor had to be bigger to have the same holding power in a soft bottom and it does in sand. Also, being in a soft bottom, the fluke angle on the plow is not optumim, thus necessitating an even larger anchor. That's the nice thing about Fortress and SuperMax anchors, they flukes that can be adjusted for the bottom conditons, optimizing their performance, but both still need to be sized to wind speed, bottom conditions and boat size.
 
Couldn't find anything wrong with his scope, being in about 10 feet of water, 2 foot tide, 1 foot storm surge, 4 foot freeboard and minimal bury of his anchor (maybe a foot or two). He claims that he put out about 200 feet of rode. Though his rode wasn't marked, he had measured the rode and put it all out.
 
Keep in mind that we were discussing minimum gear for these conditions; should the storm have been stronger and his protection less, bigger would have been indicated.
 
As we went over these ideas, I could see the typical "but that's going to cost so much money" glaze come over his eyes. No doubt it'll take another storm or two before he fully believes that he should find the money, but until then, I pointed out a better bayou to anchor in... one that Jill and I won't be using.
 
Rudy
Briney Bug- Panama City, Fl
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Rudy,
What's the basis for 15%? 7/8" is mighty big and hard to handle. I think
that you glossed over the factors that make a cleat fitting adequate. I
think that you would agree the cleat should be made out of SS or bronze.
It's size is dictated by the largest line you are going to use. Cleats with
integral machine bolts are stronger in attachment that ones with feet that
require a number of small diameter bolts. Regardless of style, a thick
large SS or aluminum backing plate is fundamental to the attachment of any
fitting which takes a load. Both the cleat and the backing plate should be
bedded - probably in 5200. Fender washers with split washers and a locking
nut should be used. Some people don't like Nyloc nuts and use double nuts
or a lock thread material.
Ron Rogers
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7/8" line and 14" cleats on a 36' boat seem, to me, to be extreme... bet I could walk the docks of every marina in the county and not find a handful of boats with 14" cleats, much less 36' sailboats. Heck bet we could poll the owners on this list with 36'+  boats and not come up with many either. I'll concede the point that many stock cleats are insufficient (mostly no backing plates and/or chromed zinc) but 14" seems overkill. WM doesn't even offer a 14" in their store catelog, not even in galvanized dock cleats. As for 7/8 line... well that probably goes well on the nearly non existant 14" cleat.

Joel Wilkins
m/s Miss Magoo
Columbia 45
Treasure Island, FL

For a rode, if he sized his rope to not exceed 15% of its tensile strength, he should have used somewhere around 7/8", 3-strand nylon (8 or 12 brait would also be acceptable). Snubbers of the same diameter and 40 foot long should have been sufficient, installing a main snubber and a back up snubber, each secured on the boat at different locations. Instead, he used 1/2" for everything which showed considerable damage. 
 
For rope of this size, the 6" "mild weather" cleats on his boat needs to be changed out to bigger cleats, at least 12" in length and 14" would be better.
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A local fella called me today wanting to discuss why he dragged over the weekend during the somewhat rough weather that we had here. Thought I might post the salient points in case there might be something to be learned.
 
His boat is a 36 foot sloop, the winds around 40 knots sustained. With the winds out of the east to north, the anchorages in this area were well protected from storm surge, getting maybe 1 foot or less of additional height, over the typical 18"-24" of tide. Not much in the way of wave action either.
 
Starting from scratch, here's how we went about evaluating his technique. A 36' typical sailboat in 40 knot winds with moderate protection from seas could expect about 1600 lb load on his ground tackle. Add in wind gusts and the load could typically be 2200 lbs and occassionally as high as 3000 lbs. Being tucked up in one of the bayous could reduce these loads, but then, too, should the wind shift and come at him right up from the open end, he might very well experience these loads, so why try and get away with less.
 
For a rode, if he sized his rope to not exceed 15% of its tensile strength, he should have used somewhere around 7/8", 3-strand nylon (8 or 12 brait would also be acceptable). Snubbers of the same diameter and 40 foot long should have been sufficient, installing a main snubber and a back up snubber, each secured on the boat at different locations. Instead, he used 1/2" for everything which showed considerable damage.
 
Chain was not necessary, as there was nothing on the bottom where he anchored that could have chafed his rode, but if he were to use some chain, 3/8" Proof Coil or BBB would have been adequate, though going up one more size to 7/16" would have provided some extra tolerance should the storm have changed destinations or become much stronger. Suggested Proof Coil or BBB as gettting shackles of the same strength to fit would pose no problems. 5/16 High Test chain would also suffice, but finding strong enough shackles to fit, at the last minute, might prove to be problamatic, so better to use Proof Coil or BBB unless adequate time to match all of the component's strenght was available.
 
For rope of this size, the 6" "mild weather" cleats on his boat needs to be changed out to bigger cleats, at least 12" in length and 14" would be better.
 
His biggest problem, and the cause of his dragging was his anchor. He had a plow anchor that was around 35 lbs. In these conditions, a 45 pounder would have been a minimum size to have, if in sand, but anchored in a soft bottom, his anchor should have been even bigger, more in the size range of 60-70 lbs. He wasn't aware that an anchor had to be bigger to have the same holding power in a soft bottom and it does in sand. Also, being in a soft bottom, the fluke angle on the plow is not optumim, thus necessitating an even larger anchor. That's the nice thing about Fortress and SuperMax anchors, they flukes that can be adjusted for the bottom conditons, optimizing their performance, but both still need to be sized to wind speed, bottom conditions and boat size.
 
Couldn't find anything wrong with his scope, being in about 10 feet of water, 2 foot tide, 1 foot storm surge, 4 foot freeboard and minimal bury of his anchor (maybe a foot or two). He claims that he put out about 200 feet of rode. Though his rode wasn't marked, he had measured the rode and put it all out.
 
Keep in mind that we were discussing minimum gear for these conditions; should the storm have been stronger and his protection less, bigger would have been indicated.
 
As we went over these ideas, I could see the typical "but that's going to cost so much money" glaze come over his eyes. No doubt it'll take another storm or two before he fully believes that he should find the money, but until then, I pointed out a better bayou to anchor in... one that Jill and I won't be using.
 
Rudy
Briney Bug- Panama City, Fl
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Rudy,
What's the basis for 15%? 7/8" is mighty big and hard to handle. I think
that you glossed over the factors that make a cleat fitting adequate. I
think that you would agree the cleat should be made out of SS or bronze.
It's size is dictated by the largest line you are going to use. Cleats with
integral machine bolts are stronger in attachment that ones with feet that
require a number of small diameter bolts. Regardless of style, a thick
large SS or aluminum backing plate is fundamental to the attachment of any
fitting which takes a load. Both the cleat and the backing plate should be
bedded - probably in 5200. Fender washers with split washers and a locking
nut should be used. Some people don't like Nyloc nuts and use double nuts
or a lock thread material.
Ron Rogers
_______________________________________________
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)
7/8" line and 14" cleats on a 36' boat seem, to me, to be extreme... bet I could walk the docks of every marina in the county and not find a handful of boats with 14" cleats, much less 36' sailboats. Heck bet we could poll the owners on this list with 36'+  boats and not come up with many either. I'll concede the point that many stock cleats are insufficient (mostly no backing plates and/or chromed zinc) but 14" seems overkill. WM doesn't even offer a 14" in their store catelog, not even in galvanized dock cleats. As for 7/8 line... well that probably goes well on the nearly non existant 14" cleat.

Joel Wilkins
m/s Miss Magoo
Columbia 45
Treasure Island, FL

For a rode, if he sized his rope to not exceed 15% of its tensile strength, he should have used somewhere around 7/8", 3-strand nylon (8 or 12 brait would also be acceptable). Snubbers of the same diameter and 40 foot long should have been sufficient, installing a main snubber and a back up snubber, each secured on the boat at different locations. Instead, he used 1/2" for everything which showed considerable damage. 
 
For rope of this size, the 6" "mild weather" cleats on his boat needs to be changed out to bigger cleats, at least 12" in length and 14" would be better.
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7/8" line and 14" cleats on a 36' boat seem, to me, to be extreme...
--------------------------------------------------------------------
May be, but cleats should be sized based on the largest size line used and the line used is sized predicated on the conditions it will be used in. The rule-of-thumb that I've seen is that the cleat should be 12-14 times the diameter of the rope used. 
 
If you think about it, a cleat is divided up into essentially 3 equal parts- two horns and the center section. For harsh conditions, you will probably make at least three turns of the rope around the cleat, and probably another locking turn or two- let's say five turns on each side. (Yes you can get away with less, but whether you want to try or not is a personal decision.)
 
A line 1" in diameter will require 3 to 5 turns on each horn. That makes the cleat 3 + 3 +3 = 9 inches (plus a little extra so the rope doesn't slip off; plus this extra makes it is easier to work with) or 5 + 5 + 5 = 15". Pick either one, it doesn't matter to me as either will be better than the 6" cleats that I see on many boats.
 
The point being, a large cleat can handle both, large line and small line; a small cleat can't. A big cleat can handle line sized for harsh conditions, a small cleat won't or, at least, not without difficulties and problems. As I walk the docks, just about every boat I see have cleats that will accommodate small lines, not large and it is these same boats that seem to always be having trouble with their lines, more so as the weather turns harsh.
 
I prefer recommending things that work all the time, not just some of the time. However, I do suggest that the equipment obtained suit the circumstances that it will be used in. Unfortunately, in my business and with my interests I'm in contact with many, many folks who didn't do it this way and discover, after the fact, that many of their things are inadequate for the circumstances that they had to use them in. 
 
A stance like this might not work for everyone, but that's whats fun about yachting... you buy it, you outfit with it and you're responsible for the consequenses, either good or bad. It's good to hear other thoughts on the subject, it makes us all think.
 
Rudy
Briney Bug- Panama City, Fl
 
 
 
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A local fella called me today wanting to discuss why he dragged over the weekend during the somewhat rough weather that we had here. Thought I might post the salient points in case there might be something to be learned.
 
His boat is a 36 foot sloop, the winds around 40 knots sustained. With the winds out of the east to north, the anchorages in this area were well protected from storm surge, getting maybe 1 foot or less of additional height, over the typical 18"-24" of tide. Not much in the way of wave action either.
 
Starting from scratch, here's how we went about evaluating his technique. A 36' typical sailboat in 40 knot winds with moderate protection from seas could expect about 1600 lb load on his ground tackle. Add in wind gusts and the load could typically be 2200 lbs and occassionally as high as 3000 lbs. Being tucked up in one of the bayous could reduce these loads, but then, too, should the wind shift and come at him right up from the open end, he might very well experience these loads, so why try and get away with less.
 
For a rode, if he sized his rope to not exceed 15% of its tensile strength, he should have used somewhere around 7/8", 3-strand nylon (8 or 12 brait would also be acceptable). Snubbers of the same diameter and 40 foot long should have been sufficient, installing a main snubber and a back up snubber, each secured on the boat at different locations. Instead, he used 1/2" for everything which showed considerable damage.
 
Chain was not necessary, as there was nothing on the bottom where he anchored that could have chafed his rode, but if he were to use some chain, 3/8" Proof Coil or BBB would have been adequate, though going up one more size to 7/16" would have provided some extra tolerance should the storm have changed destinations or become much stronger. Suggested Proof Coil or BBB as gettting shackles of the same strength to fit would pose no problems. 5/16 High Test chain would also suffice, but finding strong enough shackles to fit, at the last minute, might prove to be problamatic, so better to use Proof Coil or BBB unless adequate time to match all of the component's strenght was available.
 
For rope of this size, the 6" "mild weather" cleats on his boat needs to be changed out to bigger cleats, at least 12" in length and 14" would be better.
 
His biggest problem, and the cause of his dragging was his anchor. He had a plow anchor that was around 35 lbs. In these conditions, a 45 pounder would have been a minimum size to have, if in sand, but anchored in a soft bottom, his anchor should have been even bigger, more in the size range of 60-70 lbs. He wasn't aware that an anchor had to be bigger to have the same holding power in a soft bottom and it does in sand. Also, being in a soft bottom, the fluke angle on the plow is not optumim, thus necessitating an even larger anchor. That's the nice thing about Fortress and SuperMax anchors, they flukes that can be adjusted for the bottom conditons, optimizing their performance, but both still need to be sized to wind speed, bottom conditions and boat size.
 
Couldn't find anything wrong with his scope, being in about 10 feet of water, 2 foot tide, 1 foot storm surge, 4 foot freeboard and minimal bury of his anchor (maybe a foot or two). He claims that he put out about 200 feet of rode. Though his rode wasn't marked, he had measured the rode and put it all out.
 
Keep in mind that we were discussing minimum gear for these conditions; should the storm have been stronger and his protection less, bigger would have been indicated.
 
As we went over these ideas, I could see the typical "but that's going to cost so much money" glaze come over his eyes. No doubt it'll take another storm or two before he fully believes that he should find the money, but until then, I pointed out a better bayou to anchor in... one that Jill and I won't be using.
 
Rudy
Briney Bug- Panama City, Fl
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Rudy,
What's the basis for 15%? 7/8" is mighty big and hard to handle. I think
that you glossed over the factors that make a cleat fitting adequate. I
think that you would agree the cleat should be made out of SS or bronze.
It's size is dictated by the largest line you are going to use. Cleats with
integral machine bolts are stronger in attachment that ones with feet that
require a number of small diameter bolts. Regardless of style, a thick
large SS or aluminum backing plate is fundamental to the attachment of any
fitting which takes a load. Both the cleat and the backing plate should be
bedded - probably in 5200. Fender washers with split washers and a locking
nut should be used. Some people don't like Nyloc nuts and use double nuts
or a lock thread material.
Ron Rogers
_______________________________________________
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7/8" line and 14" cleats on a 36' boat seem, to me, to be extreme... bet I could walk the docks of every marina in the county and not find a handful of boats with 14" cleats, much less 36' sailboats. Heck bet we could poll the owners on this list with 36'+  boats and not come up with many either. I'll concede the point that many stock cleats are insufficient (mostly no backing plates and/or chromed zinc) but 14" seems overkill. WM doesn't even offer a 14" in their store catelog, not even in galvanized dock cleats. As for 7/8 line... well that probably goes well on the nearly non existant 14" cleat.

Joel Wilkins
m/s Miss Magoo
Columbia 45
Treasure Island, FL

For a rode, if he sized his rope to not exceed 15% of its tensile strength, he should have used somewhere around 7/8", 3-strand nylon (8 or 12 brait would also be acceptable). Snubbers of the same diameter and 40 foot long should have been sufficient, installing a main snubber and a back up snubber, each secured on the boat at different locations. Instead, he used 1/2" for everything which showed considerable damage. 
 
For rope of this size, the 6" "mild weather" cleats on his boat needs to be changed out to bigger cleats, at least 12" in length and 14" would be better.
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7/8" line and 14" cleats on a 36' boat seem, to me, to be extreme...
--------------------------------------------------------------------
May be, but cleats should be sized based on the largest size line used and the line used is sized predicated on the conditions it will be used in. The rule-of-thumb that I've seen is that the cleat should be 12-14 times the diameter of the rope used. 
 
If you think about it, a cleat is divided up into essentially 3 equal parts- two horns and the center section. For harsh conditions, you will probably make at least three turns of the rope around the cleat, and probably another locking turn or two- let's say five turns on each side. (Yes you can get away with less, but whether you want to try or not is a personal decision.)
 
A line 1" in diameter will require 3 to 5 turns on each horn. That makes the cleat 3 + 3 +3 = 9 inches (plus a little extra so the rope doesn't slip off; plus this extra makes it is easier to work with) or 5 + 5 + 5 = 15". Pick either one, it doesn't matter to me as either will be better than the 6" cleats that I see on many boats.
 
The point being, a large cleat can handle both, large line and small line; a small cleat can't. A big cleat can handle line sized for harsh conditions, a small cleat won't or, at least, not without difficulties and problems. As I walk the docks, just about every boat I see have cleats that will accommodate small lines, not large and it is these same boats that seem to always be having trouble with their lines, more so as the weather turns harsh.
 
I prefer recommending things that work all the time, not just some of the time. However, I do suggest that the equipment obtained suit the circumstances that it will be used in. Unfortunately, in my business and with my interests I'm in contact with many, many folks who didn't do it this way and discover, after the fact, that many of their things are inadequate for the circumstances that they had to use them in. 
 
A stance like this might not work for everyone, but that's whats fun about yachting... you buy it, you outfit with it and you're responsible for the consequenses, either good or bad. It's good to hear other thoughts on the subject, it makes us all think.
 
Rudy
Briney Bug- Panama City, Fl
 
 
 
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Rudy, you mentioned using a snubber equal in diameter to one's anchor
rode. I have often read/heard that the snubber should be a "tad"
smaller than the rode to allow suitable stretch relative to the rode.
Your thoughts? BTW, I always appreciate your style of presenting your
experiences. Good show!

Jeff Wright
Kathleen, PSC34-329
Lying Rock Hall MD (Osprey Point Marina)

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A local fella called me today wanting to discuss why he dragged over the weekend during the somewhat rough weather that we had here. Thought I might post the salient points in case there might be something to be learned.
 
His boat is a 36 foot sloop, the winds around 40 knots sustained. With the winds out of the east to north, the anchorages in this area were well protected from storm surge, getting maybe 1 foot or less of additional height, over the typical 18"-24" of tide. Not much in the way of wave action either.
 
Starting from scratch, here's how we went about evaluating his technique. A 36' typical sailboat in 40 knot winds with moderate protection from seas could expect about 1600 lb load on his ground tackle. Add in wind gusts and the load could typically be 2200 lbs and occassionally as high as 3000 lbs. Being tucked up in one of the bayous could reduce these loads, but then, too, should the wind shift and come at him right up from the open end, he might very well experience these loads, so why try and get away with less.
 
For a rode, if he sized his rope to not exceed 15% of its tensile strength, he should have used somewhere around 7/8", 3-strand nylon (8 or 12 brait would also be acceptable). Snubbers of the same diameter and 40 foot long should have been sufficient, installing a main snubber and a back up snubber, each secured on the boat at different locations. Instead, he used 1/2" for everything which showed considerable damage.
 
Chain was not necessary, as there was nothing on the bottom where he anchored that could have chafed his rode, but if he were to use some chain, 3/8" Proof Coil or BBB would have been adequate, though going up one more size to 7/16" would have provided some extra tolerance should the storm have changed destinations or become much stronger. Suggested Proof Coil or BBB as gettting shackles of the same strength to fit would pose no problems. 5/16 High Test chain would also suffice, but finding strong enough shackles to fit, at the last minute, might prove to be problamatic, so better to use Proof Coil or BBB unless adequate time to match all of the component's strenght was available.
 
For rope of this size, the 6" "mild weather" cleats on his boat needs to be changed out to bigger cleats, at least 12" in length and 14" would be better.
 
His biggest problem, and the cause of his dragging was his anchor. He had a plow anchor that was around 35 lbs. In these conditions, a 45 pounder would have been a minimum size to have, if in sand, but anchored in a soft bottom, his anchor should have been even bigger, more in the size range of 60-70 lbs. He wasn't aware that an anchor had to be bigger to have the same holding power in a soft bottom and it does in sand. Also, being in a soft bottom, the fluke angle on the plow is not optumim, thus necessitating an even larger anchor. That's the nice thing about Fortress and SuperMax anchors, they flukes that can be adjusted for the bottom conditons, optimizing their performance, but both still need to be sized to wind speed, bottom conditions and boat size.
 
Couldn't find anything wrong with his scope, being in about 10 feet of water, 2 foot tide, 1 foot storm surge, 4 foot freeboard and minimal bury of his anchor (maybe a foot or two). He claims that he put out about 200 feet of rode. Though his rode wasn't marked, he had measured the rode and put it all out.
 
Keep in mind that we were discussing minimum gear for these conditions; should the storm have been stronger and his protection less, bigger would have been indicated.
 
As we went over these ideas, I could see the typical "but that's going to cost so much money" glaze come over his eyes. No doubt it'll take another storm or two before he fully believes that he should find the money, but until then, I pointed out a better bayou to anchor in... one that Jill and I won't be using.
 
Rudy
Briney Bug- Panama City, Fl
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Rudy,
What's the basis for 15%? 7/8" is mighty big and hard to handle. I think
that you glossed over the factors that make a cleat fitting adequate. I
think that you would agree the cleat should be made out of SS or bronze.
It's size is dictated by the largest line you are going to use. Cleats with
integral machine bolts are stronger in attachment that ones with feet that
require a number of small diameter bolts. Regardless of style, a thick
large SS or aluminum backing plate is fundamental to the attachment of any
fitting which takes a load. Both the cleat and the backing plate should be
bedded - probably in 5200. Fender washers with split washers and a locking
nut should be used. Some people don't like Nyloc nuts and use double nuts
or a lock thread material.
Ron Rogers
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7/8" line and 14" cleats on a 36' boat seem, to me, to be extreme... bet I could walk the docks of every marina in the county and not find a handful of boats with 14" cleats, much less 36' sailboats. Heck bet we could poll the owners on this list with 36'+  boats and not come up with many either. I'll concede the point that many stock cleats are insufficient (mostly no backing plates and/or chromed zinc) but 14" seems overkill. WM doesn't even offer a 14" in their store catelog, not even in galvanized dock cleats. As for 7/8 line... well that probably goes well on the nearly non existant 14" cleat.

Joel Wilkins
m/s Miss Magoo
Columbia 45
Treasure Island, FL

For a rode, if he sized his rope to not exceed 15% of its tensile strength, he should have used somewhere around 7/8", 3-strand nylon (8 or 12 brait would also be acceptable). Snubbers of the same diameter and 40 foot long should have been sufficient, installing a main snubber and a back up snubber, each secured on the boat at different locations. Instead, he used 1/2" for everything which showed considerable damage. 
 
For rope of this size, the 6" "mild weather" cleats on his boat needs to be changed out to bigger cleats, at least 12" in length and 14" would be better.
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7/8" line and 14" cleats on a 36' boat seem, to me, to be extreme...
--------------------------------------------------------------------
May be, but cleats should be sized based on the largest size line used and the line used is sized predicated on the conditions it will be used in. The rule-of-thumb that I've seen is that the cleat should be 12-14 times the diameter of the rope used. 
 
If you think about it, a cleat is divided up into essentially 3 equal parts- two horns and the center section. For harsh conditions, you will probably make at least three turns of the rope around the cleat, and probably another locking turn or two- let's say five turns on each side. (Yes you can get away with less, but whether you want to try or not is a personal decision.)
 
A line 1" in diameter will require 3 to 5 turns on each horn. That makes the cleat 3 + 3 +3 = 9 inches (plus a little extra so the rope doesn't slip off; plus this extra makes it is easier to work with) or 5 + 5 + 5 = 15". Pick either one, it doesn't matter to me as either will be better than the 6" cleats that I see on many boats.
 
The point being, a large cleat can handle both, large line and small line; a small cleat can't. A big cleat can handle line sized for harsh conditions, a small cleat won't or, at least, not without difficulties and problems. As I walk the docks, just about every boat I see have cleats that will accommodate small lines, not large and it is these same boats that seem to always be having trouble with their lines, more so as the weather turns harsh.
 
I prefer recommending things that work all the time, not just some of the time. However, I do suggest that the equipment obtained suit the circumstances that it will be used in. Unfortunately, in my business and with my interests I'm in contact with many, many folks who didn't do it this way and discover, after the fact, that many of their things are inadequate for the circumstances that they had to use them in. 
 
A stance like this might not work for everyone, but that's whats fun about yachting... you buy it, you outfit with it and you're responsible for the consequenses, either good or bad. It's good to hear other thoughts on the subject, it makes us all think.
 
Rudy
Briney Bug- Panama City, Fl
 
 
 
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Rudy, you mentioned using a snubber equal in diameter to one's anchor
rode. I have often read/heard that the snubber should be a "tad"
smaller than the rode to allow suitable stretch relative to the rode.
Your thoughts? BTW, I always appreciate your style of presenting your
experiences. Good show!

Jeff Wright
Kathleen, PSC34-329
Lying Rock Hall MD (Osprey Point Marina)

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 I have often read/heard that the snubber should be a "tad"
smaller than the rode to allow suitable stretch relative to the rode.
======================================
Hi Jeff, thanks for the nice words. Yes, I've seen this idea also. The problem that I have with this idea is stretch. If you've sized your rode to not exceed 15% of the rope's tensile strength, the snubber, subjected to the same loads, but being smaller in size will then exceed this 15% load (or 20% for those that favor a higher loading).
 
I suspect that it is an idea that sounds logical, but no one has looked into the way that stretch occurs in an anchor rope. What seems to go unmentioned in every article on snubbers and sizing anchor rope rodes is that the rope, beyond 15% loading, 20% for certain, starts to have less and less of the type of stretch that is used to cushion surge loads, not more. Yes, more overall stretch, but that isn't the kind of stretch needed to cushion surge loads because that stretch is static stretch, not the dynamic stretch that is needed to cushion the surge.
 
This has all to do with the difference between the wind induced stretch and the surge induced stretch and the time at which each occurs. The wind will preload the rope, taking its requisite stretch before the surge load is applied. The surge load, the dynamic portion, then takes its share out of the amount of stretch that is left. Above 15%-20% loading  the wind, loading the rope first, takes a larger and larger percent of the available stretch, leaving less and less stretch available for the surge to use.
 
Add in unanticipated loads or loads that were not totally accounted for, and the load can easily exceed the percent of loading that was planned for. If you sized for 20%, these additional loads will then exceed your plans, therefore, I suggest 15% loading, building in a little bit of tolerance for these unanticipated loads. The good news is that at this loading there is still more than adequate stretch to cushion surge loads.
 
Keep in mind that anchoring is different from using rope on land. On land, loads can be exactingly calculated for and tightly controlled. Not so when anchored in heavy conditions. Add into that the the ideal protected anchorage may not be available and the need to size the gear conservatively presents a good arguement. Not only that, but every rope manufacturer and the Cordage Institute all recommend that the more critical the application, the lower the loading should be, 20%, even lower. I don't know about other folks, but we tend to think that keeping our boat from breaking loose is a pretty good example of a critical use.
 
In addition, the higher the strain and the longer it is applied, the more damage occurs to the rope, damage that is cummulative and permanent. This is revealede in experiments that various rope companies have done. The higher the strain, the less life cycles the rope can accommodate without failing. And even making things worse are the small belaying points that many boats have in addition to often subjecting the rope to tight turns, such as going over a chock or through a Hawse Hole.
 
My belief is that the snubber should be the same size as the rope rode, both sized to not exceed 15% (20%, I'll not argue with) of the rope's tensile strength. Doing this provides for maximum service cycles, less chafe, much less opportunity for melting to occur, longer life, and, overall healthier rope, all while still providing adequate stretch. Significantly more peace-of-mind also, which isn't always a bad thing.
 
And one last point, stretch comes in two forms- percent of tensile strength and length of rope available to stretch. It is important to not forget the length part. In other words, 10% of 10' is 1 foot of stretch; 10% of 50' is 5 feet. That extra 4 feet will make a big difference is cushioning surge loads, particularly when the weather goes downhill, so in addtion to sizing your snubbers to a diameter that you'll be satisfied with, also make them long... short snubbers do no one any good in harsh conditions.
 
By the way, had lunch with Gano today and he had really nice things to say about you. To bad you live so far away.
 
Rudy
Briney Bug- Panama City, Fl

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A local fella called me today wanting to discuss why he dragged over the weekend during the somewhat rough weather that we had here. Thought I might post the salient points in case there might be something to be learned.
 
His boat is a 36 foot sloop, the winds around 40 knots sustained. With the winds out of the east to north, the anchorages in this area were well protected from storm surge, getting maybe 1 foot or less of additional height, over the typical 18"-24" of tide. Not much in the way of wave action either.
 
Starting from scratch, here's how we went about evaluating his technique. A 36' typical sailboat in 40 knot winds with moderate protection from seas could expect about 1600 lb load on his ground tackle. Add in wind gusts and the load could typically be 2200 lbs and occassionally as high as 3000 lbs. Being tucked up in one of the bayous could reduce these loads, but then, too, should the wind shift and come at him right up from the open end, he might very well experience these loads, so why try and get away with less.
 
For a rode, if he sized his rope to not exceed 15% of its tensile strength, he should have used somewhere around 7/8", 3-strand nylon (8 or 12 brait would also be acceptable). Snubbers of the same diameter and 40 foot long should have been sufficient, installing a main snubber and a back up snubber, each secured on the boat at different locations. Instead, he used 1/2" for everything which showed considerable damage.
 
Chain was not necessary, as there was nothing on the bottom where he anchored that could have chafed his rode, but if he were to use some chain, 3/8" Proof Coil or BBB would have been adequate, though going up one more size to 7/16" would have provided some extra tolerance should the storm have changed destinations or become much stronger. Suggested Proof Coil or BBB as gettting shackles of the same strength to fit would pose no problems. 5/16 High Test chain would also suffice, but finding strong enough shackles to fit, at the last minute, might prove to be problamatic, so better to use Proof Coil or BBB unless adequate time to match all of the component's strenght was available.
 
For rope of this size, the 6" "mild weather" cleats on his boat needs to be changed out to bigger cleats, at least 12" in length and 14" would be better.
 
His biggest problem, and the cause of his dragging was his anchor. He had a plow anchor that was around 35 lbs. In these conditions, a 45 pounder would have been a minimum size to have, if in sand, but anchored in a soft bottom, his anchor should have been even bigger, more in the size range of 60-70 lbs. He wasn't aware that an anchor had to be bigger to have the same holding power in a soft bottom and it does in sand. Also, being in a soft bottom, the fluke angle on the plow is not optumim, thus necessitating an even larger anchor. That's the nice thing about Fortress and SuperMax anchors, they flukes that can be adjusted for the bottom conditons, optimizing their performance, but both still need to be sized to wind speed, bottom conditions and boat size.
 
Couldn't find anything wrong with his scope, being in about 10 feet of water, 2 foot tide, 1 foot storm surge, 4 foot freeboard and minimal bury of his anchor (maybe a foot or two). He claims that he put out about 200 feet of rode. Though his rode wasn't marked, he had measured the rode and put it all out.
 
Keep in mind that we were discussing minimum gear for these conditions; should the storm have been stronger and his protection less, bigger would have been indicated.
 
As we went over these ideas, I could see the typical "but that's going to cost so much money" glaze come over his eyes. No doubt it'll take another storm or two before he fully believes that he should find the money, but until then, I pointed out a better bayou to anchor in... one that Jill and I won't be using.
 
Rudy
Briney Bug- Panama City, Fl
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Rudy,
What's the basis for 15%? 7/8" is mighty big and hard to handle. I think
that you glossed over the factors that make a cleat fitting adequate. I
think that you would agree the cleat should be made out of SS or bronze.
It's size is dictated by the largest line you are going to use. Cleats with
integral machine bolts are stronger in attachment that ones with feet that
require a number of small diameter bolts. Regardless of style, a thick
large SS or aluminum backing plate is fundamental to the attachment of any
fitting which takes a load. Both the cleat and the backing plate should be
bedded - probably in 5200. Fender washers with split washers and a locking
nut should be used. Some people don't like Nyloc nuts and use double nuts
or a lock thread material.
Ron Rogers
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7/8" line and 14" cleats on a 36' boat seem, to me, to be extreme... bet I could walk the docks of every marina in the county and not find a handful of boats with 14" cleats, much less 36' sailboats. Heck bet we could poll the owners on this list with 36'+  boats and not come up with many either. I'll concede the point that many stock cleats are insufficient (mostly no backing plates and/or chromed zinc) but 14" seems overkill. WM doesn't even offer a 14" in their store catelog, not even in galvanized dock cleats. As for 7/8 line... well that probably goes well on the nearly non existant 14" cleat.

Joel Wilkins
m/s Miss Magoo
Columbia 45
Treasure Island, FL

For a rode, if he sized his rope to not exceed 15% of its tensile strength, he should have used somewhere around 7/8", 3-strand nylon (8 or 12 brait would also be acceptable). Snubbers of the same diameter and 40 foot long should have been sufficient, installing a main snubber and a back up snubber, each secured on the boat at different locations. Instead, he used 1/2" for everything which showed considerable damage. 
 
For rope of this size, the 6" "mild weather" cleats on his boat needs to be changed out to bigger cleats, at least 12" in length and 14" would be better.
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7/8" line and 14" cleats on a 36' boat seem, to me, to be extreme...
--------------------------------------------------------------------
May be, but cleats should be sized based on the largest size line used and the line used is sized predicated on the conditions it will be used in. The rule-of-thumb that I've seen is that the cleat should be 12-14 times the diameter of the rope used. 
 
If you think about it, a cleat is divided up into essentially 3 equal parts- two horns and the center section. For harsh conditions, you will probably make at least three turns of the rope around the cleat, and probably another locking turn or two- let's say five turns on each side. (Yes you can get away with less, but whether you want to try or not is a personal decision.)
 
A line 1" in diameter will require 3 to 5 turns on each horn. That makes the cleat 3 + 3 +3 = 9 inches (plus a little extra so the rope doesn't slip off; plus this extra makes it is easier to work with) or 5 + 5 + 5 = 15". Pick either one, it doesn't matter to me as either will be better than the 6" cleats that I see on many boats.
 
The point being, a large cleat can handle both, large line and small line; a small cleat can't. A big cleat can handle line sized for harsh conditions, a small cleat won't or, at least, not without difficulties and problems. As I walk the docks, just about every boat I see have cleats that will accommodate small lines, not large and it is these same boats that seem to always be having trouble with their lines, more so as the weather turns harsh.
 
I prefer recommending things that work all the time, not just some of the time. However, I do suggest that the equipment obtained suit the circumstances that it will be used in. Unfortunately, in my business and with my interests I'm in contact with many, many folks who didn't do it this way and discover, after the fact, that many of their things are inadequate for the circumstances that they had to use them in. 
 
A stance like this might not work for everyone, but that's whats fun about yachting... you buy it, you outfit with it and you're responsible for the consequenses, either good or bad. It's good to hear other thoughts on the subject, it makes us all think.
 
Rudy
Briney Bug- Panama City, Fl
 
 
 
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Rudy, you mentioned using a snubber equal in diameter to one's anchor
rode. I have often read/heard that the snubber should be a "tad"
smaller than the rode to allow suitable stretch relative to the rode.
Your thoughts? BTW, I always appreciate your style of presenting your
experiences. Good show!

Jeff Wright
Kathleen, PSC34-329
Lying Rock Hall MD (Osprey Point Marina)

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)
 I have often read/heard that the snubber should be a "tad"
smaller than the rode to allow suitable stretch relative to the rode.
======================================
Hi Jeff, thanks for the nice words. Yes, I've seen this idea also. The problem that I have with this idea is stretch. If you've sized your rode to not exceed 15% of the rope's tensile strength, the snubber, subjected to the same loads, but being smaller in size will then exceed this 15% load (or 20% for those that favor a higher loading).
 
I suspect that it is an idea that sounds logical, but no one has looked into the way that stretch occurs in an anchor rope. What seems to go unmentioned in every article on snubbers and sizing anchor rope rodes is that the rope, beyond 15% loading, 20% for certain, starts to have less and less of the type of stretch that is used to cushion surge loads, not more. Yes, more overall stretch, but that isn't the kind of stretch needed to cushion surge loads because that stretch is static stretch, not the dynamic stretch that is needed to cushion the surge.
 
This has all to do with the difference between the wind induced stretch and the surge induced stretch and the time at which each occurs. The wind will preload the rope, taking its requisite stretch before the surge load is applied. The surge load, the dynamic portion, then takes its share out of the amount of stretch that is left. Above 15%-20% loading  the wind, loading the rope first, takes a larger and larger percent of the available stretch, leaving less and less stretch available for the surge to use.
 
Add in unanticipated loads or loads that were not totally accounted for, and the load can easily exceed the percent of loading that was planned for. If you sized for 20%, these additional loads will then exceed your plans, therefore, I suggest 15% loading, building in a little bit of tolerance for these unanticipated loads. The good news is that at this loading there is still more than adequate stretch to cushion surge loads.
 
Keep in mind that anchoring is different from using rope on land. On land, loads can be exactingly calculated for and tightly controlled. Not so when anchored in heavy conditions. Add into that the the ideal protected anchorage may not be available and the need to size the gear conservatively presents a good arguement. Not only that, but every rope manufacturer and the Cordage Institute all recommend that the more critical the application, the lower the loading should be, 20%, even lower. I don't know about other folks, but we tend to think that keeping our boat from breaking loose is a pretty good example of a critical use.
 
In addition, the higher the strain and the longer it is applied, the more damage occurs to the rope, damage that is cummulative and permanent. This is revealede in experiments that various rope companies have done. The higher the strain, the less life cycles the rope can accommodate without failing. And even making things worse are the small belaying points that many boats have in addition to often subjecting the rope to tight turns, such as going over a chock or through a Hawse Hole.
 
My belief is that the snubber should be the same size as the rope rode, both sized to not exceed 15% (20%, I'll not argue with) of the rope's tensile strength. Doing this provides for maximum service cycles, less chafe, much less opportunity for melting to occur, longer life, and, overall healthier rope, all while still providing adequate stretch. Significantly more peace-of-mind also, which isn't always a bad thing.
 
And one last point, stretch comes in two forms- percent of tensile strength and length of rope available to stretch. It is important to not forget the length part. In other words, 10% of 10' is 1 foot of stretch; 10% of 50' is 5 feet. That extra 4 feet will make a big difference is cushioning surge loads, particularly when the weather goes downhill, so in addtion to sizing your snubbers to a diameter that you'll be satisfied with, also make them long... short snubbers do no one any good in harsh conditions.
 
By the way, had lunch with Gano today and he had really nice things to say about you. To bad you live so far away.
 
Rudy
Briney Bug- Panama City, Fl

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Sorry Jeff, forgot to add this: There is one time that I can see when sizing a snubber smaller than the rope rode would be well considered and that is when the rope rode is way "oversized" for the conditions to begin with. Then sizing the snubber smaller, still though to the 15% (20%) rule, would work.
 
Rudy
Briney Bug- Panama City, Fl
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A local fella called me today wanting to discuss why he dragged over the weekend during the somewhat rough weather that we had here. Thought I might post the salient points in case there might be something to be learned.
 
His boat is a 36 foot sloop, the winds around 40 knots sustained. With the winds out of the east to north, the anchorages in this area were well protected from storm surge, getting maybe 1 foot or less of additional height, over the typical 18"-24" of tide. Not much in the way of wave action either.
 
Starting from scratch, here's how we went about evaluating his technique. A 36' typical sailboat in 40 knot winds with moderate protection from seas could expect about 1600 lb load on his ground tackle. Add in wind gusts and the load could typically be 2200 lbs and occassionally as high as 3000 lbs. Being tucked up in one of the bayous could reduce these loads, but then, too, should the wind shift and come at him right up from the open end, he might very well experience these loads, so why try and get away with less.
 
For a rode, if he sized his rope to not exceed 15% of its tensile strength, he should have used somewhere around 7/8", 3-strand nylon (8 or 12 brait would also be acceptable). Snubbers of the same diameter and 40 foot long should have been sufficient, installing a main snubber and a back up snubber, each secured on the boat at different locations. Instead, he used 1/2" for everything which showed considerable damage.
 
Chain was not necessary, as there was nothing on the bottom where he anchored that could have chafed his rode, but if he were to use some chain, 3/8" Proof Coil or BBB would have been adequate, though going up one more size to 7/16" would have provided some extra tolerance should the storm have changed destinations or become much stronger. Suggested Proof Coil or BBB as gettting shackles of the same strength to fit would pose no problems. 5/16 High Test chain would also suffice, but finding strong enough shackles to fit, at the last minute, might prove to be problamatic, so better to use Proof Coil or BBB unless adequate time to match all of the component's strenght was available.
 
For rope of this size, the 6" "mild weather" cleats on his boat needs to be changed out to bigger cleats, at least 12" in length and 14" would be better.
 
His biggest problem, and the cause of his dragging was his anchor. He had a plow anchor that was around 35 lbs. In these conditions, a 45 pounder would have been a minimum size to have, if in sand, but anchored in a soft bottom, his anchor should have been even bigger, more in the size range of 60-70 lbs. He wasn't aware that an anchor had to be bigger to have the same holding power in a soft bottom and it does in sand. Also, being in a soft bottom, the fluke angle on the plow is not optumim, thus necessitating an even larger anchor. That's the nice thing about Fortress and SuperMax anchors, they flukes that can be adjusted for the bottom conditons, optimizing their performance, but both still need to be sized to wind speed, bottom conditions and boat size.
 
Couldn't find anything wrong with his scope, being in about 10 feet of water, 2 foot tide, 1 foot storm surge, 4 foot freeboard and minimal bury of his anchor (maybe a foot or two). He claims that he put out about 200 feet of rode. Though his rode wasn't marked, he had measured the rode and put it all out.
 
Keep in mind that we were discussing minimum gear for these conditions; should the storm have been stronger and his protection less, bigger would have been indicated.
 
As we went over these ideas, I could see the typical "but that's going to cost so much money" glaze come over his eyes. No doubt it'll take another storm or two before he fully believes that he should find the money, but until then, I pointed out a better bayou to anchor in... one that Jill and I won't be using.
 
Rudy
Briney Bug- Panama City, Fl
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Rudy,
What's the basis for 15%? 7/8" is mighty big and hard to handle. I think
that you glossed over the factors that make a cleat fitting adequate. I
think that you would agree the cleat should be made out of SS or bronze.
It's size is dictated by the largest line you are going to use. Cleats with
integral machine bolts are stronger in attachment that ones with feet that
require a number of small diameter bolts. Regardless of style, a thick
large SS or aluminum backing plate is fundamental to the attachment of any
fitting which takes a load. Both the cleat and the backing plate should be
bedded - probably in 5200. Fender washers with split washers and a locking
nut should be used. Some people don't like Nyloc nuts and use double nuts
or a lock thread material.
Ron Rogers
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7/8" line and 14" cleats on a 36' boat seem, to me, to be extreme... bet I could walk the docks of every marina in the county and not find a handful of boats with 14" cleats, much less 36' sailboats. Heck bet we could poll the owners on this list with 36'+  boats and not come up with many either. I'll concede the point that many stock cleats are insufficient (mostly no backing plates and/or chromed zinc) but 14" seems overkill. WM doesn't even offer a 14" in their store catelog, not even in galvanized dock cleats. As for 7/8 line... well that probably goes well on the nearly non existant 14" cleat.

Joel Wilkins
m/s Miss Magoo
Columbia 45
Treasure Island, FL

For a rode, if he sized his rope to not exceed 15% of its tensile strength, he should have used somewhere around 7/8", 3-strand nylon (8 or 12 brait would also be acceptable). Snubbers of the same diameter and 40 foot long should have been sufficient, installing a main snubber and a back up snubber, each secured on the boat at different locations. Instead, he used 1/2" for everything which showed considerable damage. 
 
For rope of this size, the 6" "mild weather" cleats on his boat needs to be changed out to bigger cleats, at least 12" in length and 14" would be better.
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7/8" line and 14" cleats on a 36' boat seem, to me, to be extreme...
--------------------------------------------------------------------
May be, but cleats should be sized based on the largest size line used and the line used is sized predicated on the conditions it will be used in. The rule-of-thumb that I've seen is that the cleat should be 12-14 times the diameter of the rope used. 
 
If you think about it, a cleat is divided up into essentially 3 equal parts- two horns and the center section. For harsh conditions, you will probably make at least three turns of the rope around the cleat, and probably another locking turn or two- let's say five turns on each side. (Yes you can get away with less, but whether you want to try or not is a personal decision.)
 
A line 1" in diameter will require 3 to 5 turns on each horn. That makes the cleat 3 + 3 +3 = 9 inches (plus a little extra so the rope doesn't slip off; plus this extra makes it is easier to work with) or 5 + 5 + 5 = 15". Pick either one, it doesn't matter to me as either will be better than the 6" cleats that I see on many boats.
 
The point being, a large cleat can handle both, large line and small line; a small cleat can't. A big cleat can handle line sized for harsh conditions, a small cleat won't or, at least, not without difficulties and problems. As I walk the docks, just about every boat I see have cleats that will accommodate small lines, not large and it is these same boats that seem to always be having trouble with their lines, more so as the weather turns harsh.
 
I prefer recommending things that work all the time, not just some of the time. However, I do suggest that the equipment obtained suit the circumstances that it will be used in. Unfortunately, in my business and with my interests I'm in contact with many, many folks who didn't do it this way and discover, after the fact, that many of their things are inadequate for the circumstances that they had to use them in. 
 
A stance like this might not work for everyone, but that's whats fun about yachting... you buy it, you outfit with it and you're responsible for the consequenses, either good or bad. It's good to hear other thoughts on the subject, it makes us all think.
 
Rudy
Briney Bug- Panama City, Fl
 
 
 
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Rudy, you mentioned using a snubber equal in diameter to one's anchor
rode. I have often read/heard that the snubber should be a "tad"
smaller than the rode to allow suitable stretch relative to the rode.
Your thoughts? BTW, I always appreciate your style of presenting your
experiences. Good show!

Jeff Wright
Kathleen, PSC34-329
Lying Rock Hall MD (Osprey Point Marina)

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 I have often read/heard that the snubber should be a "tad"
smaller than the rode to allow suitable stretch relative to the rode.
======================================
Hi Jeff, thanks for the nice words. Yes, I've seen this idea also. The problem that I have with this idea is stretch. If you've sized your rode to not exceed 15% of the rope's tensile strength, the snubber, subjected to the same loads, but being smaller in size will then exceed this 15% load (or 20% for those that favor a higher loading).
 
I suspect that it is an idea that sounds logical, but no one has looked into the way that stretch occurs in an anchor rope. What seems to go unmentioned in every article on snubbers and sizing anchor rope rodes is that the rope, beyond 15% loading, 20% for certain, starts to have less and less of the type of stretch that is used to cushion surge loads, not more. Yes, more overall stretch, but that isn't the kind of stretch needed to cushion surge loads because that stretch is static stretch, not the dynamic stretch that is needed to cushion the surge.
 
This has all to do with the difference between the wind induced stretch and the surge induced stretch and the time at which each occurs. The wind will preload the rope, taking its requisite stretch before the surge load is applied. The surge load, the dynamic portion, then takes its share out of the amount of stretch that is left. Above 15%-20% loading  the wind, loading the rope first, takes a larger and larger percent of the available stretch, leaving less and less stretch available for the surge to use.
 
Add in unanticipated loads or loads that were not totally accounted for, and the load can easily exceed the percent of loading that was planned for. If you sized for 20%, these additional loads will then exceed your plans, therefore, I suggest 15% loading, building in a little bit of tolerance for these unanticipated loads. The good news is that at this loading there is still more than adequate stretch to cushion surge loads.
 
Keep in mind that anchoring is different from using rope on land. On land, loads can be exactingly calculated for and tightly controlled. Not so when anchored in heavy conditions. Add into that the the ideal protected anchorage may not be available and the need to size the gear conservatively presents a good arguement. Not only that, but every rope manufacturer and the Cordage Institute all recommend that the more critical the application, the lower the loading should be, 20%, even lower. I don't know about other folks, but we tend to think that keeping our boat from breaking loose is a pretty good example of a critical use.
 
In addition, the higher the strain and the longer it is applied, the more damage occurs to the rope, damage that is cummulative and permanent. This is revealede in experiments that various rope companies have done. The higher the strain, the less life cycles the rope can accommodate without failing. And even making things worse are the small belaying points that many boats have in addition to often subjecting the rope to tight turns, such as going over a chock or through a Hawse Hole.
 
My belief is that the snubber should be the same size as the rope rode, both sized to not exceed 15% (20%, I'll not argue with) of the rope's tensile strength. Doing this provides for maximum service cycles, less chafe, much less opportunity for melting to occur, longer life, and, overall healthier rope, all while still providing adequate stretch. Significantly more peace-of-mind also, which isn't always a bad thing.
 
And one last point, stretch comes in two forms- percent of tensile strength and length of rope available to stretch. It is important to not forget the length part. In other words, 10% of 10' is 1 foot of stretch; 10% of 50' is 5 feet. That extra 4 feet will make a big difference is cushioning surge loads, particularly when the weather goes downhill, so in addtion to sizing your snubbers to a diameter that you'll be satisfied with, also make them long... short snubbers do no one any good in harsh conditions.
 
By the way, had lunch with Gano today and he had really nice things to say about you. To bad you live so far away.
 
Rudy
Briney Bug- Panama City, Fl

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Sorry Jeff, forgot to add this: There is one time that I can see when sizing a snubber smaller than the rope rode would be well considered and that is when the rope rode is way "oversized" for the conditions to begin with. Then sizing the snubber smaller, still though to the 15% (20%) rule, would work.
 
Rudy
Briney Bug- Panama City, Fl
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Or one could regard snubber lines as expendable and after they experience
one real storm, you retire it and use a new line. This is what one does in
mountain climbing after a rope experiences two falls. Similarly, in the
Army, we retire rappelling ropes after "X" number of high speed rappels. I
forget the number.

Ron Rogers
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