Thanks to Ed, Jim, and Clarke--

Two of the perspectives on money in GM help to explain (1) the role of
money in our ecological crisis and (2) how Clarke and Larry Ellison
can belong to the same culture.

"Monetary Reduction" charts reductions in "circumference" (from God's
law to natural law to market law), coupled with changes in the
economic system that produced a "transubstantiation" of money from
means to end (GM 92). Burke sketches here the shift analyzed in great
detail in CAPITAL, where Marx uses "M" (money) and "C" (commodity) to
diagram the shift from pre-capitalist C-M-C to capitalist M-C-M. This
formula captures the logic of growth in capitalism ("grow or die"),
with growth measured in money.

Later, in "The Nature of Monetary `Reality,'" Burke illustrates the
complexity of the money motive by showing that while this motive can
give a cultural reality its dominant cast, individuals nonetheless
relate to it in diverse ways with their unique "clusters" or
"equations" (GM 114), as in the difference between Clarke and Larry
Ellison.

From an ecological standpoint, the problem is less in individuals
(who are extraordinarily diverse in their "equations") than in M-C-M.
Finding a workable alternative to M-C-M is the difficult problem.

The Koehler piece Ed referenced mentioned Korten's effort to
substitute a "Life Path" for a "Money Path." That sounds like a search
for an alternative though no doubt it struggles with the problem that
"money" is so much easier to measure than "life." Furthermore, any
alternative stuggles against resistance from those who benefit from
M-C-M. Finding and implementing a workable alternative may determine
whether our chances are better than "50-50" (Ed quoting Burke).

On another issue: Ed mentions that we are in the midst of another
great "Extinction." That is often mentioned as one of the dangers of
our time. The difficulty is the statement of this danger
simultaneously indicates that the earth has witnessed a number of
these. It is bad, but it has happened before and life is still here.
Maybe it is better to focus on what is unprecedented, like a planet
dominated by M-C-M. Just a thought--

Bob W





Quoting Clarke Rountree <>:

> Indeed, a billionaire's banquet. I just returned from Hawaii. Some may not
> know that Hawaii is made up of 8 islands. Yesterday it was reported that
> Larry Ellison, founder of Cisco, is buying one of those islands (Lanai) for
> half a billion dollars. Quite remarkable! I wonder what he'll do with the
> 3200 residents there?
>
> Clarke
>
> On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Jim Klumpp <> wrote:
>
>> Thank you Ed for this wonderful posting. It is wonderful to have you
>> retired guys finding this kind of stuff for us. :)
>>
>> This is interesting both as a piece of rhetoric and for its message to
>> those of us interesting in rhetoric. On the former, the personification of
>> money reveals a totally modern perspective of influence must involve intent
>> and exertion. The analysis is shallower than perhaps good rhetoric would
>> demand because of this rhetorical shortcut.
>> But at the next level, this move is far too typical of our own views of
>> rhetoric. Burke's analysis of the monetary motive is a path we have too
>> little taken. I was surprised recently when a colleague in rhetorical
>> studies questioned whether cultural studies were rhetoric. After some
>> discussion it appeared that the absence of this intent and exertion
>> framework was a part of that questioning. I think we need to better
>> understand how to conceptualize the point of the monetary motive's power.
>> It forms a cultural complex in which all are implicated, the exploited and
>> the exploiters to use the categories we must somehow transcend. The
>> language moves us in ways of praxis that lie beyond our conceptual
>> machinery. I shall ponder this some more.
>>
>> Jim K
>>
>> --
>>
>> James F. Klumpp
>> 2130 Skinner
>> Department of Communication
>> University of Maryland
>> College Park, MD 20742-7635
>> Email:
>> Voice: 301.405.6520
>> FAX: 301.314.9471
>> Website:
>> http://terpconnect.umd.edu/~**jklumpp/home.htm
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> KB Discussion List
>>
>> https://lists.purdue.edu/**mailman/listinfo/kb
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Dr. Clarke Rountree
> Chair and Professor of Communication Arts
> 342 Morton Hall
> University of Alabama in Huntsville
> Huntsville, AL 35899
> 256-824-6646
>
>




_______________________________________________
KB Discussion List

https://lists.purdue.edu/mailman/listinfo/kb
)

Thanks to Ed, Jim, and Clarke--

Two of the perspectives on money in GM help to explain (1) the role of
money in our ecological crisis and (2) how Clarke and Larry Ellison
can belong to the same culture.

"Monetary Reduction" charts reductions in "circumference" (from God's
law to natural law to market law), coupled with changes in the
economic system that produced a "transubstantiation" of money from
means to end (GM 92). Burke sketches here the shift analyzed in great
detail in CAPITAL, where Marx uses "M" (money) and "C" (commodity) to
diagram the shift from pre-capitalist C-M-C to capitalist M-C-M. This
formula captures the logic of growth in capitalism ("grow or die"),
with growth measured in money.

Later, in "The Nature of Monetary `Reality,'" Burke illustrates the
complexity of the money motive by showing that while this motive can
give a cultural reality its dominant cast, individuals nonetheless
relate to it in diverse ways with their unique "clusters" or
"equations" (GM 114), as in the difference between Clarke and Larry
Ellison.

From an ecological standpoint, the problem is less in individuals
(who are extraordinarily diverse in their "equations") than in M-C-M.
Finding a workable alternative to M-C-M is the difficult problem.

The Koehler piece Ed referenced mentioned Korten's effort to
substitute a "Life Path" for a "Money Path." That sounds like a search
for an alternative though no doubt it struggles with the problem that
"money" is so much easier to measure than "life." Furthermore, any
alternative stuggles against resistance from those who benefit from
M-C-M. Finding and implementing a workable alternative may determine
whether our chances are better than "50-50" (Ed quoting Burke).

On another issue: Ed mentions that we are in the midst of another
great "Extinction." That is often mentioned as one of the dangers of
our time. The difficulty is the statement of this danger
simultaneously indicates that the earth has witnessed a number of
these. It is bad, but it has happened before and life is still here.
Maybe it is better to focus on what is unprecedented, like a planet
dominated by M-C-M. Just a thought--

Bob W





Quoting Clarke Rountree <>:

> Indeed, a billionaire's banquet. I just returned from Hawaii. Some may not
> know that Hawaii is made up of 8 islands. Yesterday it was reported that
> Larry Ellison, founder of Cisco, is buying one of those islands (Lanai) for
> half a billion dollars. Quite remarkable! I wonder what he'll do with the
> 3200 residents there?
>
> Clarke
>
> On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Jim Klumpp <> wrote:
>
>> Thank you Ed for this wonderful posting. It is wonderful to have you
>> retired guys finding this kind of stuff for us. :)
>>
>> This is interesting both as a piece of rhetoric and for its message to
>> those of us interesting in rhetoric. On the former, the personification of
>> money reveals a totally modern perspective of influence must involve intent
>> and exertion. The analysis is shallower than perhaps good rhetoric would
>> demand because of this rhetorical shortcut.
>> But at the next level, this move is far too typical of our own views of
>> rhetoric. Burke's analysis of the monetary motive is a path we have too
>> little taken. I was surprised recently when a colleague in rhetorical
>> studies questioned whether cultural studies were rhetoric. After some
>> discussion it appeared that the absence of this intent and exertion
>> framework was a part of that questioning. I think we need to better
>> understand how to conceptualize the point of the monetary motive's power.
>> It forms a cultural complex in which all are implicated, the exploited and
>> the exploiters to use the categories we must somehow transcend. The
>> language moves us in ways of praxis that lie beyond our conceptual
>> machinery. I shall ponder this some more.
>>
>> Jim K
>>
>> --
>>
>> James F. Klumpp
>> 2130 Skinner
>> Department of Communication
>> University of Maryland
>> College Park, MD 20742-7635
>> Email:
>> Voice: 301.405.6520
>> FAX: 301.314.9471
>> Website:
>> http://terpconnect.umd.edu/~**jklumpp/home.htm
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> KB Discussion List
>>
>> https://lists.purdue.edu/**mailman/listinfo/kb
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Dr. Clarke Rountree
> Chair and Professor of Communication Arts
> 342 Morton Hall
> University of Alabama in Huntsville
> Huntsville, AL 35899
> 256-824-6646
>
>




_______________________________________________
KB Discussion List

https://lists.purdue.edu/mailman/listinfo/kb
)
Burkophiles,
?
Bob?surely has it right:?"Finding a workable atlternative to M-C-M is the difficult problem."? Indeed.? Or, to put it?in different terms,?finding a way to seek and/or confer hierarchal "insignia" in a way that does not impact this planet so adversely is the problem.? When I referenced in a previous post Burke's reminder in P&C that the symbolizing animal is part of this universe, too, therefore an aspect of the "recalcitrance" that we have to "accurately" reonnoiter,?the hierarchal?motive is basically what I had in mind.? How do we tame it, or channel it into less destructive avenues of endeavor, by "coaching" better symbolic "spells" (PLF, pp. 3-8, 119; we can't eliminate the "magic spell" of language, only "coach 'good' spells," Burke cautions)?
?
I'll point to another exemplar for bringing modern corporate capitalism to heel, once more highlighted on CommonDreams.org: "Yes, There Is an Alternative to Capitalism: Mondragon Shows the Way," by Richard Wolff, 6/25/12.? (Permalink: http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/06/25-4.)? Mondragon Corporation is?a co-op in Spain now in its 56th year.? It is one of Spain's top ten companies, the largest in the?Basque region.? It is run by the workiers.? They select the board of directors, and through it?the managers,?not the other way around.? Thus, the workers democratically make the rules, one of which is, the CEO pay is 6.5 to 1, top pay to average-worker pay.? Sustainability and equitability are central themes.
?
Can such a model realistically make for?massive?change in the US (now 400 to 1, CEO pay to that of the worker on the line)?and in other industrialized countries?? Wolff says there are currently 300 such?co-ops in the US.? This model is worth pondering and promoting.? I don't know, however,?that it has the symbolic?power to solve or allay?our crisis.
?
Yes, Bob, life of some sort will go on, msss extinction or not.? Even homo dialecticus can take to the hills and mountains to excape the sea, or take their shopping malls underground to avert the heat.
?
?
?
Ed
?
???????
?
???
?
.? ??




-----Original Message-----
From: wessr <>
To: kb <>
Sent: Sun, Jun 24, 2012 2:15 pm
Subject: [KB] Monetary Reduction




Thanks to Ed, Jim, and Clarke--

Two of the perspectives on money in GM help to explain (1) the role of
money in our ecological crisis and (2) how Clarke and Larry Ellison
can belong to the same culture.

"Monetary Reduction" charts reductions in "circumference" (from God's
law to natural law to market law), coupled with changes in the
economic system that produced a "transubstantiation" of money from
means to end (GM 92). Burke sketches here the shift analyzed in great
detail in CAPITAL, where Marx uses "M" (money) and "C" (commodity) to
diagram the shift from pre-capitalist C-M-C to capitalist M-C-M. This
formula captures the logic of growth in capitalism ("grow or die"),
with growth measured in money.

Later, in "The Nature of Monetary `Reality,'" Burke illustrates the
complexity of the money motive by showing that while this motive can
give a cultural reality its dominant cast, individuals nonetheless
relate to it in diverse ways with their unique "clusters" or
"equations" (GM 114), as in the difference between Clarke and Larry
Ellison.

From an ecological standpoint, the problem is less in individuals
(who are extraordinarily diverse in their "equations") than in M-C-M.
Finding a workable alternative to M-C-M is the difficult problem.

The Koehler piece Ed referenced mentioned Korten's effort to
substitute a "Life Path" for a "Money Path." That sounds like a search
for an alternative though no doubt it struggles with the problem that
"money" is so much easier to measure than "life." Furthermore, any
alternative stuggles against resistance from those who benefit from
M-C-M. Finding and implementing a workable alternative may determine
whether our chances are better than "50-50" (Ed quoting Burke).

On another issue: Ed mentions that we are in the midst of another
great "Extinction." That is often mentioned as one of the dangers of
our time. The difficulty is the statement of this danger
simultaneously indicates that the earth has witnessed a number of
these. It is bad, but it has happened before and life is still here.
Maybe it is better to focus on what is unprecedented, like a planet
dominated by M-C-M. Just a thought--

Bob W





Quoting Clarke Rountree <>:

> Indeed, a billionaire's banquet. I just returned from Hawaii. Some may not
> know that Hawaii is made up of 8 islands. Yesterday it was reported that
> Larry Ellison, founder of Cisco, is buying one of those islands (Lanai) for
> half a billion dollars. Quite remarkable! I wonder what he'll do with the
> 3200 residents there?
>
> Clarke
>
> On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Jim Klumpp <> wrote:
>
>> Thank you Ed for this wonderful posting. It is wonderful to have you
>> retired guys finding this kind of stuff for us. :)
>>
>> This is interesting both as a piece of rhetoric and for its message to
>> those of us interesting in rhetoric. On the former, the personification of
>> money reveals a totally modern perspective of influence must involve intent
>> and exertion. The analysis is shallower than perhaps good rhetoric would
>> demand because of this rhetorical shortcut.
>> But at the next level, this move is far too typical of our own views of
>> rhetoric. Burke's analysis of the monetary motive is a path we have too
>> little taken. I was surprised recently when a colleague in rhetorical
>> studies questioned whether cultural studies were rhetoric. After some
>> discussion it appeared that the absence of this intent and exertion
>> framework was a part of that questioning. I think we need to better
>> understand how to conceptualize the point of the monetary motive's power.
>> It forms a cultural complex in which all are implicated, the exploited and
>> the exploiters to use the categories we must somehow transcend. The
>> language moves us in ways of praxis that lie beyond our conceptual
>> machinery. I shall ponder this some more.
>>
>> Jim K
>>
>> --
>>
>> James F. Klumpp
>> 2130 Skinner
>> Department of Communication
>> University of Maryland
>> College Park, MD 20742-7635
>> Email:
>> Voice: 301.405.6520
>> FAX: 301.314.9471
>> Website:
>> http://terpconnect.umd.edu/~**jklumpp/home.htm<http://terpconnect.umd.edu/~jklumpp/home.htm>
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> KB Discussion List
>>
>> https://lists.purdue.edu/**mailman/listinfo/kb<https://lists.purdue.edu/mailman/listinfo/kb>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Dr. Clarke Rountree
> Chair and Professor of Communication Arts
> 342 Morton Hall
> University of Alabama in Huntsville
> Huntsville, AL 35899
> 256-824-6646
>
>




_______________________________________________
KB Discussion List

https://lists.purdue.edu/mailman/listinfo/kb

Thanks to Ed, Jim, and Clarke--

Two of the perspectives on money in GM help to explain (1) the role of
money in our ecological crisis and (2) how Clarke and Larry Ellison
can belong to the same culture.

"Monetary Reduction" charts reductions in "circumference" (from God's
law to natural law to market law), coupled with changes in the
economic system that produced a "transubstantiation" of money from
means to end (GM 92). Burke sketches here the shift analyzed in great
detail in CAPITAL, where Marx uses "M" (money) and "C" (commodity) to
diagram the shift from pre-capitalist C-M-C to capitalist M-C-M. This
formula captures the logic of growth in capitalism ("grow or die"),
with growth measured in money.

Later, in "The Nature of Monetary `Reality,'" Burke illustrates the
complexity of the money motive by showing that while this motive can
give a cultural reality its dominant cast, individuals nonetheless
relate to it in diverse ways with their unique "clusters" or
"equations" (GM 114), as in the difference between Clarke and Larry
Ellison.

From an ecological standpoint, the problem is less in individuals
(who are extraordinarily diverse in their "equations") than in M-C-M.
Finding a workable alternative to M-C-M is the difficult problem.

The Koehler piece Ed referenced mentioned Korten's effort to
substitute a "Life Path" for a "Money Path." That sounds like a search
for an alternative though no doubt it struggles with the problem that
"money" is so much easier to measure than "life." Furthermore, any
alternative stuggles against resistance from those who benefit from
M-C-M. Finding and implementing a workable alternative may determine
whether our chances are better than "50-50" (Ed quoting Burke).

On another issue: Ed mentions that we are in the midst of another
great "Extinction." That is often mentioned as one of the dangers of
our time. The difficulty is the statement of this danger
simultaneously indicates that the earth has witnessed a number of
these. It is bad, but it has happened before and life is still here.
Maybe it is better to focus on what is unprecedented, like a planet
dominated by M-C-M. Just a thought--

Bob W





Quoting Clarke Rountree <>:

> Indeed, a billionaire's banquet. I just returned from Hawaii. Some may not
> know that Hawaii is made up of 8 islands. Yesterday it was reported that
> Larry Ellison, founder of Cisco, is buying one of those islands (Lanai) for
> half a billion dollars. Quite remarkable! I wonder what he'll do with the
> 3200 residents there?
>
> Clarke
>
> On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Jim Klumpp <> wrote:
>
>> Thank you Ed for this wonderful posting. It is wonderful to have you
>> retired guys finding this kind of stuff for us. :)
>>
>> This is interesting both as a piece of rhetoric and for its message to
>> those of us interesting in rhetoric. On the former, the personification of
>> money reveals a totally modern perspective of influence must involve intent
>> and exertion. The analysis is shallower than perhaps good rhetoric would
>> demand because of this rhetorical shortcut.
>> But at the next level, this move is far too typical of our own views of
>> rhetoric. Burke's analysis of the monetary motive is a path we have too
>> little taken. I was surprised recently when a colleague in rhetorical
>> studies questioned whether cultural studies were rhetoric. After some
>> discussion it appeared that the absence of this intent and exertion
>> framework was a part of that questioning. I think we need to better
>> understand how to conceptualize the point of the monetary motive's power.
>> It forms a cultural complex in which all are implicated, the exploited and
>> the exploiters to use the categories we must somehow transcend. The
>> language moves us in ways of praxis that lie beyond our conceptual
>> machinery. I shall ponder this some more.
>>
>> Jim K
>>
>> --
>>
>> James F. Klumpp
>> 2130 Skinner
>> Department of Communication
>> University of Maryland
>> College Park, MD 20742-7635
>> Email:
>> Voice: 301.405.6520
>> FAX: 301.314.9471
>> Website:
>> http://terpconnect.umd.edu/~**jklumpp/home.htm
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> KB Discussion List
>>
>> https://lists.purdue.edu/**mailman/listinfo/kb
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Dr. Clarke Rountree
> Chair and Professor of Communication Arts
> 342 Morton Hall
> University of Alabama in Huntsville
> Huntsville, AL 35899
> 256-824-6646
>
>




_______________________________________________
KB Discussion List

https://lists.purdue.edu/mailman/listinfo/kb
)
Burkophiles,
?
Bob?surely has it right:?"Finding a workable atlternative to M-C-M is the difficult problem."? Indeed.? Or, to put it?in different terms,?finding a way to seek and/or confer hierarchal "insignia" in a way that does not impact this planet so adversely is the problem.? When I referenced in a previous post Burke's reminder in P&C that the symbolizing animal is part of this universe, too, therefore an aspect of the "recalcitrance" that we have to "accurately" reonnoiter,?the hierarchal?motive is basically what I had in mind.? How do we tame it, or channel it into less destructive avenues of endeavor, by "coaching" better symbolic "spells" (PLF, pp. 3-8, 119; we can't eliminate the "magic spell" of language, only "coach 'good' spells," Burke cautions)?
?
I'll point to another exemplar for bringing modern corporate capitalism to heel, once more highlighted on CommonDreams.org: "Yes, There Is an Alternative to Capitalism: Mondragon Shows the Way," by Richard Wolff, 6/25/12.? (Permalink: http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/06/25-4.)? Mondragon Corporation is?a co-op in Spain now in its 56th year.? It is one of Spain's top ten companies, the largest in the?Basque region.? It is run by the workiers.? They select the board of directors, and through it?the managers,?not the other way around.? Thus, the workers democratically make the rules, one of which is, the CEO pay is 6.5 to 1, top pay to average-worker pay.? Sustainability and equitability are central themes.
?
Can such a model realistically make for?massive?change in the US (now 400 to 1, CEO pay to that of the worker on the line)?and in other industrialized countries?? Wolff says there are currently 300 such?co-ops in the US.? This model is worth pondering and promoting.? I don't know, however,?that it has the symbolic?power to solve or allay?our crisis.
?
Yes, Bob, life of some sort will go on, msss extinction or not.? Even homo dialecticus can take to the hills and mountains to excape the sea, or take their shopping malls underground to avert the heat.
?
?
?
Ed
?
???????
?
???
?
.? ??




-----Original Message-----
From: wessr <>
To: kb <>
Sent: Sun, Jun 24, 2012 2:15 pm
Subject: [KB] Monetary Reduction




Thanks to Ed, Jim, and Clarke--

Two of the perspectives on money in GM help to explain (1) the role of
money in our ecological crisis and (2) how Clarke and Larry Ellison
can belong to the same culture.

"Monetary Reduction" charts reductions in "circumference" (from God's
law to natural law to market law), coupled with changes in the
economic system that produced a "transubstantiation" of money from
means to end (GM 92). Burke sketches here the shift analyzed in great
detail in CAPITAL, where Marx uses "M" (money) and "C" (commodity) to
diagram the shift from pre-capitalist C-M-C to capitalist M-C-M. This
formula captures the logic of growth in capitalism ("grow or die"),
with growth measured in money.

Later, in "The Nature of Monetary `Reality,'" Burke illustrates the
complexity of the money motive by showing that while this motive can
give a cultural reality its dominant cast, individuals nonetheless
relate to it in diverse ways with their unique "clusters" or
"equations" (GM 114), as in the difference between Clarke and Larry
Ellison.

From an ecological standpoint, the problem is less in individuals
(who are extraordinarily diverse in their "equations") than in M-C-M.
Finding a workable alternative to M-C-M is the difficult problem.

The Koehler piece Ed referenced mentioned Korten's effort to
substitute a "Life Path" for a "Money Path." That sounds like a search
for an alternative though no doubt it struggles with the problem that
"money" is so much easier to measure than "life." Furthermore, any
alternative stuggles against resistance from those who benefit from
M-C-M. Finding and implementing a workable alternative may determine
whether our chances are better than "50-50" (Ed quoting Burke).

On another issue: Ed mentions that we are in the midst of another
great "Extinction." That is often mentioned as one of the dangers of
our time. The difficulty is the statement of this danger
simultaneously indicates that the earth has witnessed a number of
these. It is bad, but it has happened before and life is still here.
Maybe it is better to focus on what is unprecedented, like a planet
dominated by M-C-M. Just a thought--

Bob W





Quoting Clarke Rountree <>:

> Indeed, a billionaire's banquet. I just returned from Hawaii. Some may not
> know that Hawaii is made up of 8 islands. Yesterday it was reported that
> Larry Ellison, founder of Cisco, is buying one of those islands (Lanai) for
> half a billion dollars. Quite remarkable! I wonder what he'll do with the
> 3200 residents there?
>
> Clarke
>
> On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Jim Klumpp <> wrote:
>
>> Thank you Ed for this wonderful posting. It is wonderful to have you
>> retired guys finding this kind of stuff for us. :)
>>
>> This is interesting both as a piece of rhetoric and for its message to
>> those of us interesting in rhetoric. On the former, the personification of
>> money reveals a totally modern perspective of influence must involve intent
>> and exertion. The analysis is shallower than perhaps good rhetoric would
>> demand because of this rhetorical shortcut.
>> But at the next level, this move is far too typical of our own views of
>> rhetoric. Burke's analysis of the monetary motive is a path we have too
>> little taken. I was surprised recently when a colleague in rhetorical
>> studies questioned whether cultural studies were rhetoric. After some
>> discussion it appeared that the absence of this intent and exertion
>> framework was a part of that questioning. I think we need to better
>> understand how to conceptualize the point of the monetary motive's power.
>> It forms a cultural complex in which all are implicated, the exploited and
>> the exploiters to use the categories we must somehow transcend. The
>> language moves us in ways of praxis that lie beyond our conceptual
>> machinery. I shall ponder this some more.
>>
>> Jim K
>>
>> --
>>
>> James F. Klumpp
>> 2130 Skinner
>> Department of Communication
>> University of Maryland
>> College Park, MD 20742-7635
>> Email:
>> Voice: 301.405.6520
>> FAX: 301.314.9471
>> Website:
>> http://terpconnect.umd.edu/~**jklumpp/home.htm<http://terpconnect.umd.edu/~jklumpp/home.htm>
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> KB Discussion List
>>
>> https://lists.purdue.edu/**mailman/listinfo/kb<https://lists.purdue.edu/mailman/listinfo/kb>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Dr. Clarke Rountree
> Chair and Professor of Communication Arts
> 342 Morton Hall
> University of Alabama in Huntsville
> Huntsville, AL 35899
> 256-824-6646
>
>




_______________________________________________
KB Discussion List

https://lists.purdue.edu/mailman/listinfo/kb



I have long wondered why labor did not pool its resources and take control
of more companies. After all, the primary value of most products comes from
labor. But alas, capitalism has created a culture in which unions sacrifice
pay and benefits for the most recent hires as a concession to businesses.
How can one ask workers to unite when their as steeped in capitalism's
selfishness as the owners

Clarke

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 25, 2012, at 4:52 PM, "" <> wrote:

Burkophiles,

Bob surely has it right: "Finding a workable atlternative to M-C-M is the
difficult problem." Indeed. Or, to put it in different terms, finding a
way to seek and/or confer hierarchal "insignia" in a way that does not
impact this planet so adversely is the problem. When I referenced in a
previous post Burke's reminder in P&C that the symbolizing animal is part
of this universe, too, therefore an aspect of the "recalcitrance" that we
have to "accurately" reonnoiter, the hierarchal motive is basically what I
had in mind. How do we tame it, or channel it into less destructive
avenues of endeavor, by "coaching" better symbolic "spells" (PLF, pp. 3-8,
119; we can't eliminate the "magic spell" of language, only "coach 'good'
spells," Burke cautions)?

I'll point to another exemplar for bringing modern corporate capitalism to
heel, once more highlighted on CommonDreams.org: "Yes, There Is an
Alternative to Capitalism: Mondragon Shows the Way," by Richard Wolff,
6/25/12. (Permalink: http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/06/25-4.)
Mondragon Corporation is a co-op in Spain now in its 56th year. It is one
of Spain's top ten companies, the largest in the Basque region. It is run
by the workiers. They select the board of directors, and through it the
managers, not the other way around. Thus, the workers democratically make
the rules, one of which is, the CEO pay is 6.5 to 1, top pay to
average-worker pay. Sustainability and equitability are central themes.

Can such a model realistically make for massive change in the US (now 400
to 1, CEO pay to that of the worker on the line) and in other
industrialized countries? Wolff says there are currently 300 such co-ops
in the US. This model is worth pondering and promoting. I don't know,
however, that it has the symbolic power to solve or allay our crisis.

Yes, Bob, life of some sort will go on, msss extinction or not. Even homo
dialecticus can take to the hills and mountains to excape the sea, or take
their shopping malls underground to avert the heat.



Ed





.


-----Original Message-----
From: wessr <>
To: kb <>
Sent: Sun, Jun 24, 2012 2:15 pm
Subject: [KB] Monetary Reduction




Thanks to Ed, Jim, and Clarke--



Two of the perspectives on money in GM help to explain (1) the role of

money in our ecological crisis and (2) how Clarke and Larry Ellison

can belong to the same culture.



"Monetary Reduction" charts reductions in "circumference" (from God's

law to natural law to market law), coupled with changes in the

economic system that produced a "transubstantiation" of money from

means to end (GM 92). Burke sketches here the shift analyzed in great

detail in CAPITAL, where Marx uses "M" (money) and "C" (commodity) to

diagram the shift from pre-capitalist C-M-C to capitalist M-C-M. This

formula captures the logic of growth in capitalism ("grow or die"),

with growth measured in money.



Later, in "The Nature of Monetary `Reality,'" Burke illustrates the

complexity of the money motive by showing that while this motive can

give a cultural reality its dominant cast, individuals nonetheless

relate to it in diverse ways with their unique "clusters" or

"equations" (GM 114), as in the difference between Clarke and Larry

Ellison.



From an ecological standpoint, the problem is less in individuals

(who are extraordinarily diverse in their "equations") than in M-C-M.

Finding a workable alternative to M-C-M is the difficult problem.



The Koehler piece Ed referenced mentioned Korten's effort to

substitute a "Life Path" for a "Money Path." That sounds like a search

for an alternative though no doubt it struggles with the problem that

"money" is so much easier to measure than "life." Furthermore, any

alternative stuggles against resistance from those who benefit from

M-C-M. Finding and implementing a workable alternative may determine

whether our chances are better than "50-50" (Ed quoting Burke).



On another issue: Ed mentions that we are in the midst of another

great "Extinction." That is often mentioned as one of the dangers of

our time. The difficulty is the statement of this danger

simultaneously indicates that the earth has witnessed a number of

these. It is bad, but it has happened before and life is still here.

Maybe it is better to focus on what is unprecedented, like a planet

dominated by M-C-M. Just a thought--



Bob W











Quoting Clarke Rountree <>:



> Indeed, a billionaire's banquet. I just returned from Hawaii. Some may not

> know that Hawaii is made up of 8 islands. Yesterday it was reported that

> Larry Ellison, founder of Cisco, is buying one of those islands (Lanai) for

> half a billion dollars. Quite remarkable! I wonder what he'll do with the

> 3200 residents there?

>

> Clarke

>

> On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Jim Klumpp <> wrote:

>

>> Thank you Ed for this wonderful posting. It is wonderful to have you

>> retired guys finding this kind of stuff for us. :)

>>

>> This is interesting both as a piece of rhetoric and for its message to

>> those of us interesting in rhetoric. On the former, the personification of

>> money reveals a totally modern perspective of influence must involve intent

>> and exertion. The analysis is shallower than perhaps good rhetoric would

>> demand because of this rhetorical shortcut.

>> But at the next level, this move is far too typical of our own views of

>> rhetoric. Burke's analysis of the monetary motive is a path we have too

>> little taken. I was surprised recently when a colleague in rhetorical

>> studies questioned whether cultural studies were rhetoric. After some

>> discussion it appeared that the absence of this intent and exertion

>> framework was a part of that questioning. I think we need to better

>> understand how to conceptualize the point of the monetary motive's power.

>> It forms a cultural complex in which all are implicated, the exploited and

>> the exploiters to use the categories we must somehow transcend. The

>> language moves us in ways of praxis that lie beyond our conceptual

>> machinery. I shall ponder this some more.

>>

>> Jim K

>>

>> --

>>

>> James F. Klumpp

>> 2130 Skinner

>> Department of Communication

>> University of Maryland

>> College Park, MD 20742-7635

>> Email:

>> Voice: 301.405.6520

>> FAX: 301.314.9471

>> Website:

>> http://terpconnect.umd.edu/~**jklumpp/home.htm>

>>

>>

>>

>> ______________________________**_________________

>> KB Discussion List

>>

>> https://lists.purdue.edu/**mailman/listinfo/kb>

>>

>

>

>

> --

> Dr. Clarke Rountree

> Chair and Professor of Communication Arts

> 342 Morton Hall

> University of Alabama in Huntsville

> Huntsville, AL 35899

> 256-824-6646

>

>









_______________________________________________

KB Discussion List

https://lists.purdue.edu/mailman/listinfo/kb



_______________________________________________
KB Discussion List

https://lists.purdue.edu/mailman/listinfo/kb

Thanks to Ed, Jim, and Clarke--

Two of the perspectives on money in GM help to explain (1) the role of
money in our ecological crisis and (2) how Clarke and Larry Ellison
can belong to the same culture.

"Monetary Reduction" charts reductions in "circumference" (from God's
law to natural law to market law), coupled with changes in the
economic system that produced a "transubstantiation" of money from
means to end (GM 92). Burke sketches here the shift analyzed in great
detail in CAPITAL, where Marx uses "M" (money) and "C" (commodity) to
diagram the shift from pre-capitalist C-M-C to capitalist M-C-M. This
formula captures the logic of growth in capitalism ("grow or die"),
with growth measured in money.

Later, in "The Nature of Monetary `Reality,'" Burke illustrates the
complexity of the money motive by showing that while this motive can
give a cultural reality its dominant cast, individuals nonetheless
relate to it in diverse ways with their unique "clusters" or
"equations" (GM 114), as in the difference between Clarke and Larry
Ellison.

From an ecological standpoint, the problem is less in individuals
(who are extraordinarily diverse in their "equations") than in M-C-M.
Finding a workable alternative to M-C-M is the difficult problem.

The Koehler piece Ed referenced mentioned Korten's effort to
substitute a "Life Path" for a "Money Path." That sounds like a search
for an alternative though no doubt it struggles with the problem that
"money" is so much easier to measure than "life." Furthermore, any
alternative stuggles against resistance from those who benefit from
M-C-M. Finding and implementing a workable alternative may determine
whether our chances are better than "50-50" (Ed quoting Burke).

On another issue: Ed mentions that we are in the midst of another
great "Extinction." That is often mentioned as one of the dangers of
our time. The difficulty is the statement of this danger
simultaneously indicates that the earth has witnessed a number of
these. It is bad, but it has happened before and life is still here.
Maybe it is better to focus on what is unprecedented, like a planet
dominated by M-C-M. Just a thought--

Bob W





Quoting Clarke Rountree <>:

> Indeed, a billionaire's banquet. I just returned from Hawaii. Some may not
> know that Hawaii is made up of 8 islands. Yesterday it was reported that
> Larry Ellison, founder of Cisco, is buying one of those islands (Lanai) for
> half a billion dollars. Quite remarkable! I wonder what he'll do with the
> 3200 residents there?
>
> Clarke
>
> On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Jim Klumpp <> wrote:
>
>> Thank you Ed for this wonderful posting. It is wonderful to have you
>> retired guys finding this kind of stuff for us. :)
>>
>> This is interesting both as a piece of rhetoric and for its message to
>> those of us interesting in rhetoric. On the former, the personification of
>> money reveals a totally modern perspective of influence must involve intent
>> and exertion. The analysis is shallower than perhaps good rhetoric would
>> demand because of this rhetorical shortcut.
>> But at the next level, this move is far too typical of our own views of
>> rhetoric. Burke's analysis of the monetary motive is a path we have too
>> little taken. I was surprised recently when a colleague in rhetorical
>> studies questioned whether cultural studies were rhetoric. After some
>> discussion it appeared that the absence of this intent and exertion
>> framework was a part of that questioning. I think we need to better
>> understand how to conceptualize the point of the monetary motive's power.
>> It forms a cultural complex in which all are implicated, the exploited and
>> the exploiters to use the categories we must somehow transcend. The
>> language moves us in ways of praxis that lie beyond our conceptual
>> machinery. I shall ponder this some more.
>>
>> Jim K
>>
>> --
>>
>> James F. Klumpp
>> 2130 Skinner
>> Department of Communication
>> University of Maryland
>> College Park, MD 20742-7635
>> Email:
>> Voice: 301.405.6520
>> FAX: 301.314.9471
>> Website:
>> http://terpconnect.umd.edu/~**jklumpp/home.htm
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> KB Discussion List
>>
>> https://lists.purdue.edu/**mailman/listinfo/kb
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Dr. Clarke Rountree
> Chair and Professor of Communication Arts
> 342 Morton Hall
> University of Alabama in Huntsville
> Huntsville, AL 35899
> 256-824-6646
>
>




_______________________________________________
KB Discussion List

https://lists.purdue.edu/mailman/listinfo/kb
)
Burkophiles,
?
Bob?surely has it right:?"Finding a workable atlternative to M-C-M is the difficult problem."? Indeed.? Or, to put it?in different terms,?finding a way to seek and/or confer hierarchal "insignia" in a way that does not impact this planet so adversely is the problem.? When I referenced in a previous post Burke's reminder in P&C that the symbolizing animal is part of this universe, too, therefore an aspect of the "recalcitrance" that we have to "accurately" reonnoiter,?the hierarchal?motive is basically what I had in mind.? How do we tame it, or channel it into less destructive avenues of endeavor, by "coaching" better symbolic "spells" (PLF, pp. 3-8, 119; we can't eliminate the "magic spell" of language, only "coach 'good' spells," Burke cautions)?
?
I'll point to another exemplar for bringing modern corporate capitalism to heel, once more highlighted on CommonDreams.org: "Yes, There Is an Alternative to Capitalism: Mondragon Shows the Way," by Richard Wolff, 6/25/12.? (Permalink: http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/06/25-4.)? Mondragon Corporation is?a co-op in Spain now in its 56th year.? It is one of Spain's top ten companies, the largest in the?Basque region.? It is run by the workiers.? They select the board of directors, and through it?the managers,?not the other way around.? Thus, the workers democratically make the rules, one of which is, the CEO pay is 6.5 to 1, top pay to average-worker pay.? Sustainability and equitability are central themes.
?
Can such a model realistically make for?massive?change in the US (now 400 to 1, CEO pay to that of the worker on the line)?and in other industrialized countries?? Wolff says there are currently 300 such?co-ops in the US.? This model is worth pondering and promoting.? I don't know, however,?that it has the symbolic?power to solve or allay?our crisis.
?
Yes, Bob, life of some sort will go on, msss extinction or not.? Even homo dialecticus can take to the hills and mountains to excape the sea, or take their shopping malls underground to avert the heat.
?
?
?
Ed
?
???????
?
???
?
.? ??




-----Original Message-----
From: wessr <>
To: kb <>
Sent: Sun, Jun 24, 2012 2:15 pm
Subject: [KB] Monetary Reduction




Thanks to Ed, Jim, and Clarke--

Two of the perspectives on money in GM help to explain (1) the role of
money in our ecological crisis and (2) how Clarke and Larry Ellison
can belong to the same culture.

"Monetary Reduction" charts reductions in "circumference" (from God's
law to natural law to market law), coupled with changes in the
economic system that produced a "transubstantiation" of money from
means to end (GM 92). Burke sketches here the shift analyzed in great
detail in CAPITAL, where Marx uses "M" (money) and "C" (commodity) to
diagram the shift from pre-capitalist C-M-C to capitalist M-C-M. This
formula captures the logic of growth in capitalism ("grow or die"),
with growth measured in money.

Later, in "The Nature of Monetary `Reality,'" Burke illustrates the
complexity of the money motive by showing that while this motive can
give a cultural reality its dominant cast, individuals nonetheless
relate to it in diverse ways with their unique "clusters" or
"equations" (GM 114), as in the difference between Clarke and Larry
Ellison.

From an ecological standpoint, the problem is less in individuals
(who are extraordinarily diverse in their "equations") than in M-C-M.
Finding a workable alternative to M-C-M is the difficult problem.

The Koehler piece Ed referenced mentioned Korten's effort to
substitute a "Life Path" for a "Money Path." That sounds like a search
for an alternative though no doubt it struggles with the problem that
"money" is so much easier to measure than "life." Furthermore, any
alternative stuggles against resistance from those who benefit from
M-C-M. Finding and implementing a workable alternative may determine
whether our chances are better than "50-50" (Ed quoting Burke).

On another issue: Ed mentions that we are in the midst of another
great "Extinction." That is often mentioned as one of the dangers of
our time. The difficulty is the statement of this danger
simultaneously indicates that the earth has witnessed a number of
these. It is bad, but it has happened before and life is still here.
Maybe it is better to focus on what is unprecedented, like a planet
dominated by M-C-M. Just a thought--

Bob W





Quoting Clarke Rountree <>:

> Indeed, a billionaire's banquet. I just returned from Hawaii. Some may not
> know that Hawaii is made up of 8 islands. Yesterday it was reported that
> Larry Ellison, founder of Cisco, is buying one of those islands (Lanai) for
> half a billion dollars. Quite remarkable! I wonder what he'll do with the
> 3200 residents there?
>
> Clarke
>
> On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Jim Klumpp <> wrote:
>
>> Thank you Ed for this wonderful posting. It is wonderful to have you
>> retired guys finding this kind of stuff for us. :)
>>
>> This is interesting both as a piece of rhetoric and for its message to
>> those of us interesting in rhetoric. On the former, the personification of
>> money reveals a totally modern perspective of influence must involve intent
>> and exertion. The analysis is shallower than perhaps good rhetoric would
>> demand because of this rhetorical shortcut.
>> But at the next level, this move is far too typical of our own views of
>> rhetoric. Burke's analysis of the monetary motive is a path we have too
>> little taken. I was surprised recently when a colleague in rhetorical
>> studies questioned whether cultural studies were rhetoric. After some
>> discussion it appeared that the absence of this intent and exertion
>> framework was a part of that questioning. I think we need to better
>> understand how to conceptualize the point of the monetary motive's power.
>> It forms a cultural complex in which all are implicated, the exploited and
>> the exploiters to use the categories we must somehow transcend. The
>> language moves us in ways of praxis that lie beyond our conceptual
>> machinery. I shall ponder this some more.
>>
>> Jim K
>>
>> --
>>
>> James F. Klumpp
>> 2130 Skinner
>> Department of Communication
>> University of Maryland
>> College Park, MD 20742-7635
>> Email:
>> Voice: 301.405.6520
>> FAX: 301.314.9471
>> Website:
>> http://terpconnect.umd.edu/~**jklumpp/home.htm<http://terpconnect.umd.edu/~jklumpp/home.htm>
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> KB Discussion List
>>
>> https://lists.purdue.edu/**mailman/listinfo/kb<https://lists.purdue.edu/mailman/listinfo/kb>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Dr. Clarke Rountree
> Chair and Professor of Communication Arts
> 342 Morton Hall
> University of Alabama in Huntsville
> Huntsville, AL 35899
> 256-824-6646
>
>




_______________________________________________
KB Discussion List

https://lists.purdue.edu/mailman/listinfo/kb



I have long wondered why labor did not pool its resources and take control
of more companies. After all, the primary value of most products comes from
labor. But alas, capitalism has created a culture in which unions sacrifice
pay and benefits for the most recent hires as a concession to businesses.
How can one ask workers to unite when their as steeped in capitalism's
selfishness as the owners

Clarke

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 25, 2012, at 4:52 PM, "" <> wrote:

Burkophiles,

Bob surely has it right: "Finding a workable atlternative to M-C-M is the
difficult problem." Indeed. Or, to put it in different terms, finding a
way to seek and/or confer hierarchal "insignia" in a way that does not
impact this planet so adversely is the problem. When I referenced in a
previous post Burke's reminder in P&C that the symbolizing animal is part
of this universe, too, therefore an aspect of the "recalcitrance" that we
have to "accurately" reonnoiter, the hierarchal motive is basically what I
had in mind. How do we tame it, or channel it into less destructive
avenues of endeavor, by "coaching" better symbolic "spells" (PLF, pp. 3-8,
119; we can't eliminate the "magic spell" of language, only "coach 'good'
spells," Burke cautions)?

I'll point to another exemplar for bringing modern corporate capitalism to
heel, once more highlighted on CommonDreams.org: "Yes, There Is an
Alternative to Capitalism: Mondragon Shows the Way," by Richard Wolff,
6/25/12. (Permalink: http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/06/25-4.)
Mondragon Corporation is a co-op in Spain now in its 56th year. It is one
of Spain's top ten companies, the largest in the Basque region. It is run
by the workiers. They select the board of directors, and through it the
managers, not the other way around. Thus, the workers democratically make
the rules, one of which is, the CEO pay is 6.5 to 1, top pay to
average-worker pay. Sustainability and equitability are central themes.

Can such a model realistically make for massive change in the US (now 400
to 1, CEO pay to that of the worker on the line) and in other
industrialized countries? Wolff says there are currently 300 such co-ops
in the US. This model is worth pondering and promoting. I don't know,
however, that it has the symbolic power to solve or allay our crisis.

Yes, Bob, life of some sort will go on, msss extinction or not. Even homo
dialecticus can take to the hills and mountains to excape the sea, or take
their shopping malls underground to avert the heat.



Ed





.


-----Original Message-----
From: wessr <>
To: kb <>
Sent: Sun, Jun 24, 2012 2:15 pm
Subject: [KB] Monetary Reduction




Thanks to Ed, Jim, and Clarke--



Two of the perspectives on money in GM help to explain (1) the role of

money in our ecological crisis and (2) how Clarke and Larry Ellison

can belong to the same culture.



"Monetary Reduction" charts reductions in "circumference" (from God's

law to natural law to market law), coupled with changes in the

economic system that produced a "transubstantiation" of money from

means to end (GM 92). Burke sketches here the shift analyzed in great

detail in CAPITAL, where Marx uses "M" (money) and "C" (commodity) to

diagram the shift from pre-capitalist C-M-C to capitalist M-C-M. This

formula captures the logic of growth in capitalism ("grow or die"),

with growth measured in money.



Later, in "The Nature of Monetary `Reality,'" Burke illustrates the

complexity of the money motive by showing that while this motive can

give a cultural reality its dominant cast, individuals nonetheless

relate to it in diverse ways with their unique "clusters" or

"equations" (GM 114), as in the difference between Clarke and Larry

Ellison.



From an ecological standpoint, the problem is less in individuals

(who are extraordinarily diverse in their "equations") than in M-C-M.

Finding a workable alternative to M-C-M is the difficult problem.



The Koehler piece Ed referenced mentioned Korten's effort to

substitute a "Life Path" for a "Money Path." That sounds like a search

for an alternative though no doubt it struggles with the problem that

"money" is so much easier to measure than "life." Furthermore, any

alternative stuggles against resistance from those who benefit from

M-C-M. Finding and implementing a workable alternative may determine

whether our chances are better than "50-50" (Ed quoting Burke).



On another issue: Ed mentions that we are in the midst of another

great "Extinction." That is often mentioned as one of the dangers of

our time. The difficulty is the statement of this danger

simultaneously indicates that the earth has witnessed a number of

these. It is bad, but it has happened before and life is still here.

Maybe it is better to focus on what is unprecedented, like a planet

dominated by M-C-M. Just a thought--



Bob W











Quoting Clarke Rountree <>:



> Indeed, a billionaire's banquet. I just returned from Hawaii. Some may not

> know that Hawaii is made up of 8 islands. Yesterday it was reported that

> Larry Ellison, founder of Cisco, is buying one of those islands (Lanai) for

> half a billion dollars. Quite remarkable! I wonder what he'll do with the

> 3200 residents there?

>

> Clarke

>

> On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Jim Klumpp <> wrote:

>

>> Thank you Ed for this wonderful posting. It is wonderful to have you

>> retired guys finding this kind of stuff for us. :)

>>

>> This is interesting both as a piece of rhetoric and for its message to

>> those of us interesting in rhetoric. On the former, the personification of

>> money reveals a totally modern perspective of influence must involve intent

>> and exertion. The analysis is shallower than perhaps good rhetoric would

>> demand because of this rhetorical shortcut.

>> But at the next level, this move is far too typical of our own views of

>> rhetoric. Burke's analysis of the monetary motive is a path we have too

>> little taken. I was surprised recently when a colleague in rhetorical

>> studies questioned whether cultural studies were rhetoric. After some

>> discussion it appeared that the absence of this intent and exertion

>> framework was a part of that questioning. I think we need to better

>> understand how to conceptualize the point of the monetary motive's power.

>> It forms a cultural complex in which all are implicated, the exploited and

>> the exploiters to use the categories we must somehow transcend. The

>> language moves us in ways of praxis that lie beyond our conceptual

>> machinery. I shall ponder this some more.

>>

>> Jim K

>>

>> --

>>

>> James F. Klumpp

>> 2130 Skinner

>> Department of Communication

>> University of Maryland

>> College Park, MD 20742-7635

>> Email:

>> Voice: 301.405.6520

>> FAX: 301.314.9471

>> Website:

>> http://terpconnect.umd.edu/~**jklumpp/home.htm>

>>

>>

>>

>> ______________________________**_________________

>> KB Discussion List

>>

>> https://lists.purdue.edu/**mailman/listinfo/kb>

>>

>

>

>

> --

> Dr. Clarke Rountree

> Chair and Professor of Communication Arts

> 342 Morton Hall

> University of Alabama in Huntsville

> Huntsville, AL 35899

> 256-824-6646

>

>









_______________________________________________

KB Discussion List

https://lists.purdue.edu/mailman/listinfo/kb



_______________________________________________
KB Discussion List

https://lists.purdue.edu/mailman/listinfo/kb


On 25/06/2012 2:49 PM, wrote:
> Burkophiles,
> Bob surely has it right: "Finding a workable atlternative to M-C-M is
> the difficult problem." Indeed.
Difficult but not impossible. In "Waste -- the Future of Prosperity,"
the 1930 satirical essay that became the anchor for Burke's Hellhaven
satire, Burke telegraphed the workable alternative negatively as "that
we must make sure not to do": "We have simply to make sure that the
increase in the number of labor-saving devices does not shorten the
hours of labor."

Burke described the 1930 piece as strongly influenced by Veblen. Another
essay strongly influenced by Veblen that put forth the same alternative
solution was Stephen Leacock's "The Unsolved Riddle of Social Justice"
(1920). Arthur Dahlberg's Veblen-inspired book, "Jobs, Machines and
Capitalism" published just two years after Burke's essay expounded that
alternative solution in great detail. Burke's and Dahlberg's
interpretation Veblen was noticeably inflected by Stuart Chase's 1925
"The Tragedy of Waste."

As for Marx, he drafted the resolution for the First International that
proclaimed:shortening the hours of labor "a preliminary condition
without which all further attempts at improvements and emancipation of
the working class must prove abortive." The alternative solution can
even be written in algebraic shorthand: T - M - T (for time or H for
hours or LT for labor time).

Confirmation of Burke's satirical injunction's pivotal rhetorical status
comes in the persistent effort by defenders of the status quo to make
sure that we don't shorten the hours of labor. The key note of this
reactionary rhetoric was struck in 1780 in response to machinery riots
in Lancashire and amplified amplified in the 1830s in response to the
Ten Hour Day movement. This rhetoric depends on two substitutable
assertions, neither of which has been demonstrated: 1. that there is no
need to shorten the hours of labor because an increase in the supply of
labor creates its own demand (Say's Law, dumbed down) and 2. that even
if there was a need to create jobs, shortening the hours of work
wouldn't do it because it would raise costs. Both claims have been
refuted but the rhetoric persists by dancing back and forth between the
two poles.

Marx answered the rhetoric's first pole, which he "called the theory of
compensation as regards the workpeople displaced by machinery,"with a
satire invoking the Dicken's character from Oliver Twist, Bill Sikes:
> Gentlemen of the jury, no doubt the throat of this traveling salesman
> has been cut. But that is not my fault; it is the fault of the knife!
> Must we, for such a temporary inconvenience, abolish the use of the
> knife? Only consider! Where would agriculture and trade be without the
> knife? Is it not as beneficial in surgery as it is in anatomy? And in
> addition a willing help at the festive table? If you abolish the
> knife---you hurl us back into the depths of barbarism.

Thanks to Ed, Jim, and Clarke--

Two of the perspectives on money in GM help to explain (1) the role of
money in our ecological crisis and (2) how Clarke and Larry Ellison
can belong to the same culture.

"Monetary Reduction" charts reductions in "circumference" (from God's
law to natural law to market law), coupled with changes in the
economic system that produced a "transubstantiation" of money from
means to end (GM 92). Burke sketches here the shift analyzed in great
detail in CAPITAL, where Marx uses "M" (money) and "C" (commodity) to
diagram the shift from pre-capitalist C-M-C to capitalist M-C-M. This
formula captures the logic of growth in capitalism ("grow or die"),
with growth measured in money.

Later, in "The Nature of Monetary `Reality,'" Burke illustrates the
complexity of the money motive by showing that while this motive can
give a cultural reality its dominant cast, individuals nonetheless
relate to it in diverse ways with their unique "clusters" or
"equations" (GM 114), as in the difference between Clarke and Larry
Ellison.

From an ecological standpoint, the problem is less in individuals
(who are extraordinarily diverse in their "equations") than in M-C-M.
Finding a workable alternative to M-C-M is the difficult problem.

The Koehler piece Ed referenced mentioned Korten's effort to
substitute a "Life Path" for a "Money Path." That sounds like a search
for an alternative though no doubt it struggles with the problem that
"money" is so much easier to measure than "life." Furthermore, any
alternative stuggles against resistance from those who benefit from
M-C-M. Finding and implementing a workable alternative may determine
whether our chances are better than "50-50" (Ed quoting Burke).

On another issue: Ed mentions that we are in the midst of another
great "Extinction." That is often mentioned as one of the dangers of
our time. The difficulty is the statement of this danger
simultaneously indicates that the earth has witnessed a number of
these. It is bad, but it has happened before and life is still here.
Maybe it is better to focus on what is unprecedented, like a planet
dominated by M-C-M. Just a thought--

Bob W





Quoting Clarke Rountree <>:

> Indeed, a billionaire's banquet. I just returned from Hawaii. Some may not
> know that Hawaii is made up of 8 islands. Yesterday it was reported that
> Larry Ellison, founder of Cisco, is buying one of those islands (Lanai) for
> half a billion dollars. Quite remarkable! I wonder what he'll do with the
> 3200 residents there?
>
> Clarke
>
> On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Jim Klumpp <> wrote:
>
>> Thank you Ed for this wonderful posting. It is wonderful to have you
>> retired guys finding this kind of stuff for us. :)
>>
>> This is interesting both as a piece of rhetoric and for its message to
>> those of us interesting in rhetoric. On the former, the personification of
>> money reveals a totally modern perspective of influence must involve intent
>> and exertion. The analysis is shallower than perhaps good rhetoric would
>> demand because of this rhetorical shortcut.
>> But at the next level, this move is far too typical of our own views of
>> rhetoric. Burke's analysis of the monetary motive is a path we have too
>> little taken. I was surprised recently when a colleague in rhetorical
>> studies questioned whether cultural studies were rhetoric. After some
>> discussion it appeared that the absence of this intent and exertion
>> framework was a part of that questioning. I think we need to better
>> understand how to conceptualize the point of the monetary motive's power.
>> It forms a cultural complex in which all are implicated, the exploited and
>> the exploiters to use the categories we must somehow transcend. The
>> language moves us in ways of praxis that lie beyond our conceptual
>> machinery. I shall ponder this some more.
>>
>> Jim K
>>
>> --
>>
>> James F. Klumpp
>> 2130 Skinner
>> Department of Communication
>> University of Maryland
>> College Park, MD 20742-7635
>> Email:
>> Voice: 301.405.6520
>> FAX: 301.314.9471
>> Website:
>> http://terpconnect.umd.edu/~**jklumpp/home.htm
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> KB Discussion List
>>
>> https://lists.purdue.edu/**mailman/listinfo/kb
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Dr. Clarke Rountree
> Chair and Professor of Communication Arts
> 342 Morton Hall
> University of Alabama in Huntsville
> Huntsville, AL 35899
> 256-824-6646
>
>




_______________________________________________
KB Discussion List

https://lists.purdue.edu/mailman/listinfo/kb
)
Burkophiles,
?
Bob?surely has it right:?"Finding a workable atlternative to M-C-M is the difficult problem."? Indeed.? Or, to put it?in different terms,?finding a way to seek and/or confer hierarchal "insignia" in a way that does not impact this planet so adversely is the problem.? When I referenced in a previous post Burke's reminder in P&C that the symbolizing animal is part of this universe, too, therefore an aspect of the "recalcitrance" that we have to "accurately" reonnoiter,?the hierarchal?motive is basically what I had in mind.? How do we tame it, or channel it into less destructive avenues of endeavor, by "coaching" better symbolic "spells" (PLF, pp. 3-8, 119; we can't eliminate the "magic spell" of language, only "coach 'good' spells," Burke cautions)?
?
I'll point to another exemplar for bringing modern corporate capitalism to heel, once more highlighted on CommonDreams.org: "Yes, There Is an Alternative to Capitalism: Mondragon Shows the Way," by Richard Wolff, 6/25/12.? (Permalink: http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/06/25-4.)? Mondragon Corporation is?a co-op in Spain now in its 56th year.? It is one of Spain's top ten companies, the largest in the?Basque region.? It is run by the workiers.? They select the board of directors, and through it?the managers,?not the other way around.? Thus, the workers democratically make the rules, one of which is, the CEO pay is 6.5 to 1, top pay to average-worker pay.? Sustainability and equitability are central themes.
?
Can such a model realistically make for?massive?change in the US (now 400 to 1, CEO pay to that of the worker on the line)?and in other industrialized countries?? Wolff says there are currently 300 such?co-ops in the US.? This model is worth pondering and promoting.? I don't know, however,?that it has the symbolic?power to solve or allay?our crisis.
?
Yes, Bob, life of some sort will go on, msss extinction or not.? Even homo dialecticus can take to the hills and mountains to excape the sea, or take their shopping malls underground to avert the heat.
?
?
?
Ed
?
???????
?
???
?
.? ??




-----Original Message-----
From: wessr <>
To: kb <>
Sent: Sun, Jun 24, 2012 2:15 pm
Subject: [KB] Monetary Reduction




Thanks to Ed, Jim, and Clarke--

Two of the perspectives on money in GM help to explain (1) the role of
money in our ecological crisis and (2) how Clarke and Larry Ellison
can belong to the same culture.

"Monetary Reduction" charts reductions in "circumference" (from God's
law to natural law to market law), coupled with changes in the
economic system that produced a "transubstantiation" of money from
means to end (GM 92). Burke sketches here the shift analyzed in great
detail in CAPITAL, where Marx uses "M" (money) and "C" (commodity) to
diagram the shift from pre-capitalist C-M-C to capitalist M-C-M. This
formula captures the logic of growth in capitalism ("grow or die"),
with growth measured in money.

Later, in "The Nature of Monetary `Reality,'" Burke illustrates the
complexity of the money motive by showing that while this motive can
give a cultural reality its dominant cast, individuals nonetheless
relate to it in diverse ways with their unique "clusters" or
"equations" (GM 114), as in the difference between Clarke and Larry
Ellison.

From an ecological standpoint, the problem is less in individuals
(who are extraordinarily diverse in their "equations") than in M-C-M.
Finding a workable alternative to M-C-M is the difficult problem.

The Koehler piece Ed referenced mentioned Korten's effort to
substitute a "Life Path" for a "Money Path." That sounds like a search
for an alternative though no doubt it struggles with the problem that
"money" is so much easier to measure than "life." Furthermore, any
alternative stuggles against resistance from those who benefit from
M-C-M. Finding and implementing a workable alternative may determine
whether our chances are better than "50-50" (Ed quoting Burke).

On another issue: Ed mentions that we are in the midst of another
great "Extinction." That is often mentioned as one of the dangers of
our time. The difficulty is the statement of this danger
simultaneously indicates that the earth has witnessed a number of
these. It is bad, but it has happened before and life is still here.
Maybe it is better to focus on what is unprecedented, like a planet
dominated by M-C-M. Just a thought--

Bob W





Quoting Clarke Rountree <>:

> Indeed, a billionaire's banquet. I just returned from Hawaii. Some may not
> know that Hawaii is made up of 8 islands. Yesterday it was reported that
> Larry Ellison, founder of Cisco, is buying one of those islands (Lanai) for
> half a billion dollars. Quite remarkable! I wonder what he'll do with the
> 3200 residents there?
>
> Clarke
>
> On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Jim Klumpp <> wrote:
>
>> Thank you Ed for this wonderful posting. It is wonderful to have you
>> retired guys finding this kind of stuff for us. :)
>>
>> This is interesting both as a piece of rhetoric and for its message to
>> those of us interesting in rhetoric. On the former, the personification of
>> money reveals a totally modern perspective of influence must involve intent
>> and exertion. The analysis is shallower than perhaps good rhetoric would
>> demand because of this rhetorical shortcut.
>> But at the next level, this move is far too typical of our own views of
>> rhetoric. Burke's analysis of the monetary motive is a path we have too
>> little taken. I was surprised recently when a colleague in rhetorical
>> studies questioned whether cultural studies were rhetoric. After some
>> discussion it appeared that the absence of this intent and exertion
>> framework was a part of that questioning. I think we need to better
>> understand how to conceptualize the point of the monetary motive's power.
>> It forms a cultural complex in which all are implicated, the exploited and
>> the exploiters to use the categories we must somehow transcend. The
>> language moves us in ways of praxis that lie beyond our conceptual
>> machinery. I shall ponder this some more.
>>
>> Jim K
>>
>> --
>>
>> James F. Klumpp
>> 2130 Skinner
>> Department of Communication
>> University of Maryland
>> College Park, MD 20742-7635
>> Email:
>> Voice: 301.405.6520
>> FAX: 301.314.9471
>> Website:
>> http://terpconnect.umd.edu/~**jklumpp/home.htm<http://terpconnect.umd.edu/~jklumpp/home.htm>
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> KB Discussion List
>>
>> https://lists.purdue.edu/**mailman/listinfo/kb<https://lists.purdue.edu/mailman/listinfo/kb>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Dr. Clarke Rountree
> Chair and Professor of Communication Arts
> 342 Morton Hall
> University of Alabama in Huntsville
> Huntsville, AL 35899
> 256-824-6646
>
>




_______________________________________________
KB Discussion List

https://lists.purdue.edu/mailman/listinfo/kb



I have long wondered why labor did not pool its resources and take control
of more companies. After all, the primary value of most products comes from
labor. But alas, capitalism has created a culture in which unions sacrifice
pay and benefits for the most recent hires as a concession to businesses.
How can one ask workers to unite when their as steeped in capitalism's
selfishness as the owners

Clarke

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 25, 2012, at 4:52 PM, "" <> wrote:

Burkophiles,

Bob surely has it right: "Finding a workable atlternative to M-C-M is the
difficult problem." Indeed. Or, to put it in different terms, finding a
way to seek and/or confer hierarchal "insignia" in a way that does not
impact this planet so adversely is the problem. When I referenced in a
previous post Burke's reminder in P&C that the symbolizing animal is part
of this universe, too, therefore an aspect of the "recalcitrance" that we
have to "accurately" reonnoiter, the hierarchal motive is basically what I
had in mind. How do we tame it, or channel it into less destructive
avenues of endeavor, by "coaching" better symbolic "spells" (PLF, pp. 3-8,
119; we can't eliminate the "magic spell" of language, only "coach 'good'
spells," Burke cautions)?

I'll point to another exemplar for bringing modern corporate capitalism to
heel, once more highlighted on CommonDreams.org: "Yes, There Is an
Alternative to Capitalism: Mondragon Shows the Way," by Richard Wolff,
6/25/12. (Permalink: http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/06/25-4.)
Mondragon Corporation is a co-op in Spain now in its 56th year. It is one
of Spain's top ten companies, the largest in the Basque region. It is run
by the workiers. They select the board of directors, and through it the
managers, not the other way around. Thus, the workers democratically make
the rules, one of which is, the CEO pay is 6.5 to 1, top pay to
average-worker pay. Sustainability and equitability are central themes.

Can such a model realistically make for massive change in the US (now 400
to 1, CEO pay to that of the worker on the line) and in other
industrialized countries? Wolff says there are currently 300 such co-ops
in the US. This model is worth pondering and promoting. I don't know,
however, that it has the symbolic power to solve or allay our crisis.

Yes, Bob, life of some sort will go on, msss extinction or not. Even homo
dialecticus can take to the hills and mountains to excape the sea, or take
their shopping malls underground to avert the heat.



Ed





.


-----Original Message-----
From: wessr <>
To: kb <>
Sent: Sun, Jun 24, 2012 2:15 pm
Subject: [KB] Monetary Reduction




Thanks to Ed, Jim, and Clarke--



Two of the perspectives on money in GM help to explain (1) the role of

money in our ecological crisis and (2) how Clarke and Larry Ellison

can belong to the same culture.



"Monetary Reduction" charts reductions in "circumference" (from God's

law to natural law to market law), coupled with changes in the

economic system that produced a "transubstantiation" of money from

means to end (GM 92). Burke sketches here the shift analyzed in great

detail in CAPITAL, where Marx uses "M" (money) and "C" (commodity) to

diagram the shift from pre-capitalist C-M-C to capitalist M-C-M. This

formula captures the logic of growth in capitalism ("grow or die"),

with growth measured in money.



Later, in "The Nature of Monetary `Reality,'" Burke illustrates the

complexity of the money motive by showing that while this motive can

give a cultural reality its dominant cast, individuals nonetheless

relate to it in diverse ways with their unique "clusters" or

"equations" (GM 114), as in the difference between Clarke and Larry

Ellison.



From an ecological standpoint, the problem is less in individuals

(who are extraordinarily diverse in their "equations") than in M-C-M.

Finding a workable alternative to M-C-M is the difficult problem.



The Koehler piece Ed referenced mentioned Korten's effort to

substitute a "Life Path" for a "Money Path." That sounds like a search

for an alternative though no doubt it struggles with the problem that

"money" is so much easier to measure than "life." Furthermore, any

alternative stuggles against resistance from those who benefit from

M-C-M. Finding and implementing a workable alternative may determine

whether our chances are better than "50-50" (Ed quoting Burke).



On another issue: Ed mentions that we are in the midst of another

great "Extinction." That is often mentioned as one of the dangers of

our time. The difficulty is the statement of this danger

simultaneously indicates that the earth has witnessed a number of

these. It is bad, but it has happened before and life is still here.

Maybe it is better to focus on what is unprecedented, like a planet

dominated by M-C-M. Just a thought--



Bob W











Quoting Clarke Rountree <>:



> Indeed, a billionaire's banquet. I just returned from Hawaii. Some may not

> know that Hawaii is made up of 8 islands. Yesterday it was reported that

> Larry Ellison, founder of Cisco, is buying one of those islands (Lanai) for

> half a billion dollars. Quite remarkable! I wonder what he'll do with the

> 3200 residents there?

>

> Clarke

>

> On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Jim Klumpp <> wrote:

>

>> Thank you Ed for this wonderful posting. It is wonderful to have you

>> retired guys finding this kind of stuff for us. :)

>>

>> This is interesting both as a piece of rhetoric and for its message to

>> those of us interesting in rhetoric. On the former, the personification of

>> money reveals a totally modern perspective of influence must involve intent

>> and exertion. The analysis is shallower than perhaps good rhetoric would

>> demand because of this rhetorical shortcut.

>> But at the next level, this move is far too typical of our own views of

>> rhetoric. Burke's analysis of the monetary motive is a path we have too

>> little taken. I was surprised recently when a colleague in rhetorical

>> studies questioned whether cultural studies were rhetoric. After some

>> discussion it appeared that the absence of this intent and exertion

>> framework was a part of that questioning. I think we need to better

>> understand how to conceptualize the point of the monetary motive's power.

>> It forms a cultural complex in which all are implicated, the exploited and

>> the exploiters to use the categories we must somehow transcend. The

>> language moves us in ways of praxis that lie beyond our conceptual

>> machinery. I shall ponder this some more.

>>

>> Jim K

>>

>> --

>>

>> James F. Klumpp

>> 2130 Skinner

>> Department of Communication

>> University of Maryland

>> College Park, MD 20742-7635

>> Email:

>> Voice: 301.405.6520

>> FAX: 301.314.9471

>> Website:

>> http://terpconnect.umd.edu/~**jklumpp/home.htm>

>>

>>

>>

>> ______________________________**_________________

>> KB Discussion List

>>

>> https://lists.purdue.edu/**mailman/listinfo/kb>

>>

>

>

>

> --

> Dr. Clarke Rountree

> Chair and Professor of Communication Arts

> 342 Morton Hall

> University of Alabama in Huntsville

> Huntsville, AL 35899

> 256-824-6646

>

>









_______________________________________________

KB Discussion List

https://lists.purdue.edu/mailman/listinfo/kb



_______________________________________________
KB Discussion List

https://lists.purdue.edu/mailman/listinfo/kb


On 25/06/2012 2:49 PM, wrote:
> Burkophiles,
> Bob surely has it right: "Finding a workable atlternative to M-C-M is
> the difficult problem." Indeed.
Difficult but not impossible. In "Waste -- the Future of Prosperity,"
the 1930 satirical essay that became the anchor for Burke's Hellhaven
satire, Burke telegraphed the workable alternative negatively as "that
we must make sure not to do": "We have simply to make sure that the
increase in the number of labor-saving devices does not shorten the
hours of labor."

Burke described the 1930 piece as strongly influenced by Veblen. Another
essay strongly influenced by Veblen that put forth the same alternative
solution was Stephen Leacock's "The Unsolved Riddle of Social Justice"
(1920). Arthur Dahlberg's Veblen-inspired book, "Jobs, Machines and
Capitalism" published just two years after Burke's essay expounded that
alternative solution in great detail. Burke's and Dahlberg's
interpretation Veblen was noticeably inflected by Stuart Chase's 1925
"The Tragedy of Waste."

As for Marx, he drafted the resolution for the First International that
proclaimed:shortening the hours of labor "a preliminary condition
without which all further attempts at improvements and emancipation of
the working class must prove abortive." The alternative solution can
even be written in algebraic shorthand: T - M - T (for time or H for
hours or LT for labor time).

Confirmation of Burke's satirical injunction's pivotal rhetorical status
comes in the persistent effort by defenders of the status quo to make
sure that we don't shorten the hours of labor. The key note of this
reactionary rhetoric was struck in 1780 in response to machinery riots
in Lancashire and amplified amplified in the 1830s in response to the
Ten Hour Day movement. This rhetoric depends on two substitutable
assertions, neither of which has been demonstrated: 1. that there is no
need to shorten the hours of labor because an increase in the supply of
labor creates its own demand (Say's Law, dumbed down) and 2. that even
if there was a need to create jobs, shortening the hours of work
wouldn't do it because it would raise costs. Both claims have been
refuted but the rhetoric persists by dancing back and forth between the
two poles.

Marx answered the rhetoric's first pole, which he "called the theory of
compensation as regards the workpeople displaced by machinery,"with a
satire invoking the Dicken's character from Oliver Twist, Bill Sikes:
> Gentlemen of the jury, no doubt the throat of this traveling salesman
> has been cut. But that is not my fault; it is the fault of the knife!
> Must we, for such a temporary inconvenience, abolish the use of the
> knife? Only consider! Where would agriculture and trade be without the
> knife? Is it not as beneficial in surgery as it is in anatomy? And in
> addition a willing help at the festive table? If you abolish the
> knife---you hurl us back into the depths of barbarism.





By the way, I had stopped in the middle of transcribing "Waste -- the
Future of Prosperity" from a blotchy microfilm photocopy and this
conversation spurred me on to finish it. Then I looked for and found a
copy online at Internet Archive of the 1956 sequel, "Recipe for
Prosperity: Borrow. Spend. Buy. Waste. Want".

On 25/06/2012 5:38 PM, Tom Walker wrote:
> On 25/06/2012 2:49 PM, wrote:
>> Burkophiles,
>> Bob surely has it right: "Finding a workable atlternative to M-C-M is
>> the difficult problem." Indeed.
> Difficult but not impossible. In "Waste -- the Future of Prosperity,"
> the 1930 satirical essay that became the anchor for Burke's Hellhaven
> satire, Burke telegraphed the workable alternative negatively as
> "that we must make sure not to do": "We have simply to make sure that
> the increase in the number of labor-saving devices does not shorten
> the hours of labor."
>
> Burke described the 1930 piece as strongly influenced by Veblen.
> Another essay strongly influenced by Veblen that put forth the same
> alternative solution was Stephen Leacock's "The Unsolved Riddle of
> Social Justice" (1920). Arthur Dahlberg's Veblen-inspired book,
> "Jobs, Machines and Capitalism" published just two years after Burke's
> essay expounded that alternative solution in great detail. Burke's and
> Dahlberg's interpretation Veblen was noticeably inflected by Stuart
> Chase's 1925 "The Tragedy of Waste."
>
> As for Marx, he drafted the resolution for the First International
> that proclaimed:shortening the hours of labor "a preliminary condition
> without which all further attempts at improvements and emancipation of
> the working class must prove abortive." The alternative solution can
> even be written in algebraic shorthand: T - M - T (for time or H for
> hours or LT for labor time).
>
> Confirmation of Burke's satirical injunction's pivotal rhetorical
> status comes in the persistent effort by defenders of the status quo
> to make sure that we don't shorten the hours of labor. The key note of
> this reactionary rhetoric was struck in 1780 in response to machinery
> riots in Lancashire and amplified amplified in the 1830s in response
> to the Ten Hour Day movement. This rhetoric depends on two
> substitutable assertions, neither of which has been demonstrated: 1.
> that there is no need to shorten the hours of labor because an
> increase in the supply of labor creates its own demand (Say's Law,
> dumbed down) and 2. that even if there was a need to create jobs,
> shortening the hours of work wouldn't do it because it would raise
> costs. Both claims have been refuted but the rhetoric persists by
> dancing back and forth between the two poles.
>
> Marx answered the rhetoric's first pole, which he "called the theory
> of compensation as regards the workpeople displaced by machinery,"with
> a satire invoking the Dicken's character from Oliver Twist, Bill Sikes:
>> Gentlemen of the jury, no doubt the throat of this traveling salesman
>> has been cut. But that is not my fault; it is the fault of the knife!
>> Must we, for such a temporary inconvenience, abolish the use of the
>> knife? Only consider! Where would agriculture and trade be without
>> the knife? Is it not as beneficial in surgery as it is in anatomy?
>> And in addition a willing help at the festive table? If you abolish
>> the knife---you hurl us back into the depths of barbarism.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> KB Discussion List
>
> https://lists.purdue.edu/mailman/listinfo/kb
>
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.2180 / Virus Database: 2437/5092 - Release Date: 06/25/12
>