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Conpire/AzCacophony Digest, Vol 9, Issue 66

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So, got a lovely first bit of hate mail from one of the members here and
passed this on to him for further edification - thought I would pass it on
to you all too, in case you have issue with this ECHO project (which I
fully expected) - from one of our members, this is a fascinating podcast: I
welcome your thoughts on this, and calling me a **** is, of course,
also allowed, hehehe

http://www.freakonomics.com/2011/11/10/boo-who-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/

--
Sondra

"If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy; if the world were
merely challenging, that would be no problem. But I wake up each morning
torn between a desire to save the world and a desire to savor the world.
This makes it very hard to plan the day." -- E. B. White

I wanna read the hate-mail! Also, redacting names is for ****.

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 20, 2012, at 12:51 AM, Sondra Carr <>
wrote:

So, got a lovely first bit of hate mail from one of the members here and
passed this on to him for further edification - thought I would pass it on
to you all too, in case you have issue with this ECHO project (which I
fully expected) - from one of our members, this is a fascinating podcast: I
welcome your thoughts on this, and calling me a **** is, of course,
also allowed, hehehe

http://www.freakonomics.com/2011/11/10/boo-who-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/

--
Sondra

"If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy; if the world were
merely challenging, that would be no problem. But I wake up each morning
torn between a desire to save the world and a desire to savor the world.
This makes it very hard to plan the day." -- E. B. White

_______________________________________________
AzCacophony mailing list

Click this link to unsubscribe or change settings:
https://ellermann.net/mailman/listinfo/azcacophony
http://www.azcacophony.org

Thanks Gingh for demonstrating how to provide a different viewpoint.

Oh... and if anyone dares to heckle the
Hardways...
they are a likely to be raged on by rabid fans! ;)

R

On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 11:03 AM, GingherL <> wrote:

>
>
>
> After reading these posts and the link, my opinion is that it seems like a
> fun event that would challenge the norm and the performers. At the same
> time, for an amateur it takes a lot to put yourself out there. New
> performers are probably nervous and doing everything they can to just
> remember what they are doing, their timing, etc. To be blindsided by a
> bunch of hecklers could be pretty rough.
>
> I would say to make it fair--let them know you're coming. That way they
> can prepare a barrage of backlash that creates an interaction and a two-way
> energy.
>
> Feel free to come heckle The Hardways anytime you'd like!
>
> XXOO
> Gingh
>
> *Gingher Leyendecker, Ph.D.*
> *MCC Life Drawing/Anatomy*
> *(480) 461-7623*
> *
> *
>
>
>

--
_________
Ruvi W )'(

I've considered that, GingherL, and it would actually ruin the effect it
has that is interesting at all - I was a little worried myself the first
time and I'm empathetic to the plight of the newbie, having gone through
the torture of art school critiques - but I now know what those profs knew
then - without that critique you will never be good. This is simply a fact
of creation. It's a painful one, but it can be done with that in mind. If a
comedian is on a stage in public and has not prepared himself for critique,
someone really should have made him aware of it before then. This is likely
the most gentle way he will first encounter it and I realize that seems
counter-intuitvie but there is something about it being a whole group
heckling that makes it so ridiculous that it ceases to be the same animal
as that one lone angry drunk heckler that you're used to.

I instituted the "fish tie of silence' to handle this - when I think a
heckler is going in too far or stepping on the tender toes of a neophyte
too much, I'll put the tie on them and they have to shut up (and if they
don't, I have other means) - this will create a silliness that said
neophyte comic can play off of as the offending heckler sits there unable
to retort and we turn on our own to heckle him or her.

But from the last one of these we did - here's what I found - the neophytes
DID respond with sadness/ despair - for a moment. BUT - by the end of the
night, they had joined with their more seasoned pro brethren and were more
interested and even a little excited about what was happening and (I
believe) what they could do with it later.

I remember when my kids were little and I would challenge them in certain
ways and man, everyone would say "you shouldn't do that at that age - they
need to be coddled" and I said "I get what you're saying, but you know,
you're wrong" History and experience all back me here in saying, I get that
it feels uncomfortable and that it's a moral gray area but the fact is that
this is more help than hinder - it's a mental obstacle course that we're
providing and they are making the choice to do this publicly which means
that they must be prepared for critique, just as I am prepared for your
critique here in making this public.

Anyway - note that I've considered these things and instituted rules in
order to assuage some of them - this isn't full on chaos. But I actually
don't think it's that much different than Santarchy - with Santarchy, we're
challenging the notion of a fully recognized and celebrated event being
universal. With this we're challenging the wall between the performer and
the audience as being some special sacred cow that should never be crossed.
The very best performers are able to work without the protection of walls.
I don't intend to break them down crashing on anyone's stage, but to gently
nudge them and poke at them and let people explore what they are really
made of - from my perspective, the intention is always just to see more of
what the world is really made of.

Ian - if we ever decide to move on to musical venues, I assure you we'll
all come prepared to take on your fans. And you can thank me later at how
mega hyped they all will be on that night. I like gin and tonics for the
record.

On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 11:23 AM, Ruvi W <> wrote:

>
>
>
> Thanks Gingh for demonstrating how to provide a different viewpoint.
>
> Oh... and if anyone dares to heckle the Hardways...
> they are a likely to be raged on by rabid fans! ;)
>
> R
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 11:03 AM, GingherL <> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> After reading these posts and the link, my opinion is that it seems like
>> a fun event that would challenge the norm and the performers. At the same
>> time, for an amateur it takes a lot to put yourself out there. New
>> performers are probably nervous and doing everything they can to just
>> remember what they are doing, their timing, etc. To be blindsided by a
>> bunch of hecklers could be pretty rough.
>>
>> I would say to make it fair--let them know you're coming. That way they
>> can prepare a barrage of backlash that creates an interaction and a two-way
>> energy.
>>
>> Feel free to come heckle The Hardways anytime you'd like!
>>
>> XXOO
>> Gingh
>>
>> *Gingher Leyendecker, Ph.D.*
>> *MCC Life Drawing/Anatomy*
>> *(480) 461-7623*
>> *
>> *
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> _________
> Ruvi W )'(
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> AzCacophony mailing list
>
> Click this link to unsubscribe or change settings:
> https://ellermann.net/mailman/listinfo/azcacophony
> http://www.azcacophony.org
>
>

--
Sondra

"If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy; if the world were
merely challenging, that would be no problem. But I wake up each morning
torn between a desire to save the world and a desire to savor the world.
This makes it very hard to plan the day." -- E. B. White

But before you heckle The Hardways, be sure to friend us on Facebook and check out our new website at thehardwayslive.com
Come on Gingher, you're dropping the social media ball!!
-ian

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 20, 2012, at 11:23 AM, Ruvi W <> wrote:

>
>
> Thanks Gingh for demonstrating how to provide a different viewpoint.
>
> Oh... and if anyone dares to heckle the Hardways... they are a likely to be raged on by rabid fans! ;)
>
> R
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 11:03 AM, GingherL <> wrote:
>
>
>
> After reading these posts and the link, my opinion is that it seems like a fun event that would challenge the norm and the performers. At the same time, for an amateur it takes a lot to put yourself out there. New performers are probably nervous and doing everything they can to just remember what they are doing, their timing, etc. To be blindsided by a bunch of hecklers could be pretty rough.
>
> I would say to make it fair--let them know you're coming. That way they can prepare a barrage of backlash that creates an interaction and a two-way energy.
>
> Feel free to come heckle The Hardways anytime you'd like!
>
> XXOO
> Gingh
>
> Gingher Leyendecker, Ph.D.
> MCC Life Drawing/Anatomy
> (480) 461-7623
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> _________
> Ruvi W )'(
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> AzCacophony mailing list
>
> Click this link to unsubscribe or change settings: https://ellermann.net/mailman/listinfo/azcacophony
> http://www.azcacophony.org

Oh Ruvi - I thought it was Ian. Well, same applies. See me later about that
gin and tonic.

S

>
> On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 11:23 AM, Ruvi W <> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks Gingh for demonstrating how to provide a different viewpoint.
>>
>> Oh... and if anyone dares to heckle the Hardways...
>> they are a likely to be raged on by rabid fans! ;)
>>
>> R
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 11:03 AM, GingherL <> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> After reading these posts and the link, my opinion is that it seems like
>>> a fun event that would challenge the norm and the performers. At the same
>>> time, for an amateur it takes a lot to put yourself out there. New
>>> performers are probably nervous and doing everything they can to just
>>> remember what they are doing, their timing, etc. To be blindsided by a
>>> bunch of hecklers could be pretty rough.
>>>
>>> I would say to make it fair--let them know you're coming. That way they
>>> can prepare a barrage of backlash that creates an interaction and a two-way
>>> energy.
>>>
>>> Feel free to come heckle The Hardways anytime you'd like!
>>>
>>> XXOO
>>> Gingh
>>>
>>> *Gingher Leyendecker, Ph.D.*
>>> *MCC Life Drawing/Anatomy*
>>> *(480) 461-7623*
>>> *
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> _________
>> Ruvi W )'(
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> AzCacophony mailing list
>>
>> Click this link to unsubscribe or change settings:
>> https://ellermann.net/mailman/listinfo/azcacophony
>> http://www.azcacophony.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Sondra
>
> "If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy; if the world were
> merely challenging, that would be no problem. But I wake up each morning
> torn between a desire to save the world and a desire to savor the world.
> This makes it very hard to plan the day." -- E. B. White
>

--
Sondra

"If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy; if the world were
merely challenging, that would be no problem. But I wake up each morning
torn between a desire to save the world and a desire to savor the world.
This makes it very hard to plan the day." -- E. B. White

I too, like Gin and Tonics!
~ian

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 20, 2012, at 12:06 PM, Sondra Carr <> wrote:

>
>
> I've considered that, GingherL, and it would actually ruin the effect it has that is interesting at all - I was a little worried myself the first time and I'm empathetic to the plight of the newbie, having gone through the torture of art school critiques - but I now know what those profs knew then - without that critique you will never be good. This is simply a fact of creation. It's a painful one, but it can be done with that in mind. If a comedian is on a stage in public and has not prepared himself for critique, someone really should have made him aware of it before then. This is likely the most gentle way he will first encounter it and I realize that seems counter-intuitvie but there is something about it being a whole group heckling that makes it so ridiculous that it ceases to be the same animal as that one lone angry drunk heckler that you're used to.
>
> I instituted the "fish tie of silence' to handle this - when I think a heckler is going in too far or stepping on the tender toes of a neophyte too much, I'll put the tie on them and they have to shut up (and if they don't, I have other means) - this will create a silliness that said neophyte comic can play off of as the offending heckler sits there unable to retort and we turn on our own to heckle him or her.
>
> But from the last one of these we did - here's what I found - the neophytes DID respond with sadness/ despair - for a moment. BUT - by the end of the night, they had joined with their more seasoned pro brethren and were more interested and even a little excited about what was happening and (I believe) what they could do with it later.
>
> I remember when my kids were little and I would challenge them in certain ways and man, everyone would say "you shouldn't do that at that age - they need to be coddled" and I said "I get what you're saying, but you know, you're wrong" History and experience all back me here in saying, I get that it feels uncomfortable and that it's a moral gray area but the fact is that this is more help than hinder - it's a mental obstacle course that we're providing and they are making the choice to do this publicly which means that they must be prepared for critique, just as I am prepared for your critique here in making this public.
>
> Anyway - note that I've considered these things and instituted rules in order to assuage some of them - this isn't full on chaos. But I actually don't think it's that much different than Santarchy - with Santarchy, we're challenging the notion of a fully recognized and celebrated event being universal. With this we're challenging the wall between the performer and the audience as being some special sacred cow that should never be crossed. The very best performers are able to work without the protection of walls. I don't intend to break them down crashing on anyone's stage, but to gently nudge them and poke at them and let people explore what they are really made of - from my perspective, the intention is always just to see more of what the world is really made of.
>
> Ian - if we ever decide to move on to musical venues, I assure you we'll all come prepared to take on your fans. And you can thank me later at how mega hyped they all will be on that night. I like gin and tonics for the record.
>
> On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 11:23 AM, Ruvi W <> wrote:
>
>
>
> Thanks Gingh for demonstrating how to provide a different viewpoint.
>
> Oh... and if anyone dares to heckle the Hardways... they are a likely to be raged on by rabid fans! ;)
>
> R
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 11:03 AM, GingherL <> wrote:
>
>
>
> After reading these posts and the link, my opinion is that it seems like a fun event that would challenge the norm and the performers. At the same time, for an amateur it takes a lot to put yourself out there. New performers are probably nervous and doing everything they can to just remember what they are doing, their timing, etc. To be blindsided by a bunch of hecklers could be pretty rough.
>
> I would say to make it fair--let them know you're coming. That way they can prepare a barrage of backlash that creates an interaction and a two-way energy.
>
> Feel free to come heckle The Hardways anytime you'd like!
>
> XXOO
> Gingh
>
> Gingher Leyendecker, Ph.D.
> MCC Life Drawing/Anatomy
> (480) 461-7623
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> _________
> Ruvi W )'(
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> AzCacophony mailing list
>
> Click this link to unsubscribe or change settings: https://ellermann.net/mailman/listinfo/azcacophony
> http://www.azcacophony.org
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sondra
>
> "If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy; if the world were merely challenging, that would be no problem. But I wake up each morning torn between a desire to save the world and a desire to savor the world. This makes it very hard to plan the day." -- E. B. White
> _______________________________________________
> AzCacophony mailing list
>
> Click this link to unsubscribe or change settings: https://ellermann.net/mailman/listinfo/azcacophony
> http://www.azcacophony.org

I three! :-)

BOB

_____________________________________________
From: Ian Wender <>
Sent: Tue Mar 20 13:46:59 MST 2012
To: Arizona Cacophony Society discussion list <>
Subject: Re: [AzCacophony] Heckling

I too, like Gin and Tonics!

~ian

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 20, 2012, at 12:06 PM, Sondra Carr <> wrote:

I've considered that, GingherL, and it would actually ruin the effect it has that is interesting at all - I was a little worried myself the first time and I'm empathetic to the plight of the newbie, having gone through the torture of art school critiques - but I now know what those profs knew then - without that critique you will never be good. This is simply a fact of creation. It's a painful one, but it can be done with that in mind. If a comedian is on a stage in public and has not prepared himself for critique, someone really should have made him aware of it before then. This is likely the most gentle way he will first encounter it and I realize that seems counter-intuitvie but there is something about it being a whole group heckling that makes it so ridiculous that it ceases to be the same animal as that one lone angry drunk heckler that you're used to.

I instituted the "fish tie of silence' to handle this - when I think a heckler is going in too far or stepping on the tender toes of a neophyte too much, I'll put the tie on them and they have to shut up (and if they don't, I have other means) - this will create a silliness that said neophyte comic can play off of as the offending heckler sits there unable to retort and we turn on our own to heckle him or her.

But from the last one of these we did - here's what I found - the neophytes DID respond with sadness/ despair - for a moment. BUT - by the end of the night, they had joined with their more seasoned pro brethren and were more interested and even a little excited about what was happening and (I believe) what they could do with it later.

I remember when my kids were little and I would challenge them in certain ways and man, everyone would say "you shouldn't do that at that age - they need to be coddled" and I said "I get what you're saying, but you know, you're wrong" History and experience all back me here in saying, I get that it feels uncomfortable and that it's a moral gray area but the fact is that this is more help than hinder - it's a mental obstacle course that we're providing and they are making the choice to do this publicly which means that they must be prepared for critique, just as I am prepared for your critique here in making this public.

Anyway - note that I've considered these things and instituted rules in order to assuage some of them - this isn't full on chaos. But I actually don't think it's that much different than Santarchy - with Santarchy, we're challenging the notion of a fully recognized and celebrated event being universal. With this we're challenging the wall between the performer and the audience as being some special sacred cow that should never be crossed. The very best performers are able to work without the protection of walls. I don't intend to break them down crashing on anyone's stage, but to gently nudge them and poke at them and let people explore what they are really made of - from my perspective, the intention is always just to see more of what the world is really made of.

Ian - if we ever decide to move on to musical venues, I assure you we'll all come prepared to take on your fans. And you can thank me later at how mega hyped they all will be on that night. I like gin and tonics for the record.

On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 11:23 AM, Ruvi W <> wrote:

Thanks Gingh for demonstrating how to provide a different viewpoint.

Oh... and if anyone dares to heckle the Hardways... they are a likely to be raged on by rabid fans! ;)

R

On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 11:03 AM, GingherL <> wrote:

After reading these posts and the link, my opinion is that it seems like a fun event that would challenge the norm and the performers. At the same time, for an amateur it takes a lot to put yourself out there. New performers are probably nervous and doing everything they can to just remember what they are doing, their timing, etc. To be blindsided by a bunch of hecklers could be pretty rough.

I would say to make it fair--let them know you're coming. That way they can prepare a barrage of backlash that creates an interaction and a two-way energy.

Feel free to come heckle The Hardways anytime you'd like!

XXOO

Gingh

Gingher Leyendecker, Ph.D.

MCC Life Drawing/Anatomy

(480) 461-7623

--
_________
Ruvi W )'(

_______________________________________________
AzCacophony mailing list

Click this link to unsubscribe or change settings: https://ellermann.net/mailman/listinfo/azcacophony
http://www.azcacophony.org

--
Sondra

"If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy; if the world were merely challenging, that would be no problem. But I wake up each morning torn between a desire to save the world and a desire to savor the world. This makes it very hard to plan the day." -- E. B. White

_______________________________________________
AzCacophony mailing list

Click this link to unsubscribe or change settings: https://ellermann.net/mailman/listinfo/azcacophony
http://www.azcacophony.org

=

New rule - anyone liking gin and tonics is safe from heckling.

On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 2:17 PM, Karine Rivet <>wrote:

>
>
>
> I three! :-)
>
> BOB
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Ian Wender <>
> *Sent:* Tue Mar 20 13:46:59 MST 2012
> *To:* Arizona Cacophony Society discussion list <
> >
> *Subject:* Re: [AzCacophony] Heckling
>
> I too, like Gin and Tonics!
> ~ian
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 20, 2012, at 12:06 PM, Sondra Carr <>
> wrote:
>
>
>

Excellent rule!

BOB

_____________________________________________
From: Sondra Carr <>
Sent: Tue Mar 20 14:55:11 MST 2012
To: Arizona Cacophony Society discussion list <>
Subject: Re: [AzCacophony] Heckling

New rule - anyone liking gin and tonics is safe from heckling.

On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 2:17 PM, Karine Rivet <> wrote:

I three! :-)

BOB

_____________________________________________
From: Ian Wender <>
Sent: Tue Mar 20 13:46:59 MST 2012
To: Arizona Cacophony Society discussion list <>
Subject: Re: [AzCacophony] Heckling

I too, like Gin and Tonics!

~ian

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 20, 2012, at 12:06 PM, Sondra Carr <> wrote:

The thing about your art school critiques though, is that you went in
knowing it was a critique ahead of time. You knew what you were up
against and maybe even prepared for it.

I can see your point that some performers might catch on and end up
enjoying it or be sharper for it, but I believe others might be
saddened by the attack. Yes it's a hard world. Especially for
performers, artists, musicians, and the like. They take more than
their share of rejection already. And I don't like the idea of going
to someone else's performance and making it about my agenda. Santarchy
is about the participants, they are not disrupting someone else's
performance.

I have been on both sides--as an art student and musician, and now as
a professor. I don't think that everyone is cut out to be an artist.
Some students will never make it past a class or two even with great
intentions. However, these same people might become patrons of the
arts, donors to the arts, museum or gallery owners. If my harshness
crushes that out of them before they even develop an appreciation for
what they're doing than I've done a disservice to the art world. There
are ways of being honest without being cruel.

I would rather see this group heckle a session of congress--

I will have to respectfully agree to disagree.
Best,
Gingher

Gingher Leyendecker, Ph.D.
MCC Life Drawing/Anatomy
(480) 461-7623

On Mar 20, 2012, at 12:06 PM, Sondra Carr wrote:

>
>
> I've considered that, GingherL, and it would actually ruin the
> effect it has that is interesting at all - I was a little worried
> myself the first time and I'm empathetic to the plight of the
> newbie, having gone through the torture of art school critiques -
> but I now know what those profs knew then - without that critique
> you will never be good. This is simply a fact of creation. It's a
> painful one, but it can be done with that in mind. If a comedian is
> on a stage in public and has not prepared himself for critique,
> someone really should have made him aware of it before then. This is
> likely the most gentle way he will first encounter it and I realize
> that seems counter-intuitvie but there is something about it being a
> whole group heckling that makes it so ridiculous that it ceases to
> be the same animal as that one lone angry drunk heckler that you're
> used to.
>
> I instituted the "fish tie of silence' to handle this - when I think
> a heckler is going in too far or stepping on the tender toes of a
> neophyte too much, I'll put the tie on them and they have to shut up
> (and if they don't, I have other means) - this will create a
> silliness that said neophyte comic can play off of as the offending
> heckler sits there unable to retort and we turn on our own to heckle
> him or her.
>
> But from the last one of these we did - here's what I found - the
> neophytes DID respond with sadness/ despair - for a moment. BUT - by
> the end of the night, they had joined with their more seasoned pro
> brethren and were more interested and even a little excited about
> what was happening and (I believe) what they could do with it later.
>
> I remember when my kids were little and I would challenge them in
> certain ways and man, everyone would say "you shouldn't do that at
> that age - they need to be coddled" and I said "I get what you're
> saying, but you know, you're wrong" History and experience all back
> me here in saying, I get that it feels uncomfortable and that it's a
> moral gray area but the fact is that this is more help than hinder -
> it's a mental obstacle course that we're providing and they are
> making the choice to do this publicly which means that they must be
> prepared for critique, just as I am prepared for your critique here
> in making this public.
>
> Anyway - note that I've considered these things and instituted rules
> in order to assuage some of them - this isn't full on chaos. But I
> actually don't think it's that much different than Santarchy - with
> Santarchy, we're challenging the notion of a fully recognized and
> celebrated event being universal. With this we're challenging the
> wall between the performer and the audience as being some special
> sacred cow that should never be crossed. The very best performers
> are able to work without the protection of walls. I don't intend to
> break them down crashing on anyone's stage, but to gently nudge them
> and poke at them and let people explore what they are really made of
> - from my perspective, the intention is always just to see more of
> what the world is really made of.
>
> Ian - if we ever decide to move on to musical venues, I assure you
> we'll all come prepared to take on your fans. And you can thank me
> later at how mega hyped they all will be on that night. I like gin
> and tonics for the record.
>
> On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 11:23 AM, Ruvi W <> wrote:
>
>
>
> Thanks Gingh for demonstrating how to provide a different viewpoint.
>
> Oh... and if anyone dares to heckle the Hardways... they are a
> likely to be raged on by rabid fans! ;)
>
> R
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 11:03 AM, GingherL <> wrote:
>
>
>
> After reading these posts and the link, my opinion is that it seems
> like a fun event that would challenge the norm and the performers.
> At the same time, for an amateur it takes a lot to put yourself out
> there. New performers are probably nervous and doing everything they
> can to just remember what they are doing, their timing, etc. To be
> blindsided by a bunch of hecklers could be pretty rough.
>
> I would say to make it fair--let them know you're coming. That way
> they can prepare a barrage of backlash that creates an interaction
> and a two-way energy.
>
> Feel free to come heckle The Hardways anytime you'd like!
>
> XXOO
> Gingh
>
> Gingher Leyendecker, Ph.D.
> MCC Life Drawing/Anatomy
> (480) 461-7623
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> _________
> Ruvi W )'(
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> AzCacophony mailing list
>
> Click this link to unsubscribe or change settings: https://ellermann.net/mailman/listinfo/azcacophony
> http://www.azcacophony.org
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sondra
>
> "If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy; if the
> world were merely challenging, that would be no problem. But I wake
> up each morning torn between a desire to save the world and a desire
> to savor the world. This makes it very hard to plan the day." -- E.
> B. White
> _______________________________________________
> AzCacophony mailing list
>
> Click this link to unsubscribe or change settings: https://ellermann.net/mailman/listinfo/azcacophony
> http://www.azcacophony.org

I'm in.
~Ian

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 20, 2012, at 3:35 PM, Karine Rivet <> wrote:

>
>
> Excellent rule!
>
> BOB
>
>
>
> From: Sondra Carr <>
> Sent: Tue Mar 20 14:55:11 MST 2012
> To: Arizona Cacophony Society discussion list <>
> Subject: Re: [AzCacophony] Heckling
>
> New rule - anyone liking gin and tonics is safe from heckling.
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 2:17 PM, Karine Rivet <> wrote:
>
>
>
> I three! :-)
>
> BOB
>
>
>
> From: Ian Wender <>
> Sent: Tue Mar 20 13:46:59 MST 2012
> To: Arizona Cacophony Society discussion list <>
> Subject: Re: [AzCacophony] Heckling
>
> I too, like Gin and Tonics!
> ~ian
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 20, 2012, at 12:06 PM, Sondra Carr <> wrote:
>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> AzCacophony mailing list
>
> Click this link to unsubscribe or change settings: https://ellermann.net/mailman/listinfo/azcacophony
> http://www.azcacophony.org

I had one professor at U Michigan's School of Art who said none of us
would ever become artists, that you had to be too conformist in H.S
trying to get good grades needed to be able to get into Michigan to
have any creativity or soul. He did say that the training we were
getting would make us great art collectors. I raised my hand and said
that I never graduated from high school. Got an A in that studio class!
Gary Gibson
_______________________________________________
AzCacophony mailing list

Click this link to unsubscribe or change settings: https://ellermann.net/mailman/listinfo/azcacophony
http://www.azcacophony.org
)
Oh no - not at all. You've been through it, right? Judging by the
credentials on your name,

No art school student I've ever known went in knowing they are in for that
and many drop out when they find out. That's how the herd gets culled. And
no one prepares you or coddles you through it. I mean, that may have
changed in the last ten or fifteen years, but god, I hope it hasn't gotten
that stupidly PC now. Having to rise to the occasion was one of the most
important parts about art school for me. Having to deal with that critique
and not being prepared for it toughened me up and I credit that with making
me the person who will do her ideas instead of waiting around to make sure
it's all ok with everyone first.

Counter this with the fact that no comedian on earth gets on any public
stage without _knowing_ he'll have hecklers, and if he hasn't prepared for
that, he's completely clueless. There are no patrons of the comedy scene -
and those comedians who fail at it do not go on to patronize that way. I've
specifically picked comedy (as opposed to other arts) because the entire
approach to comedy is about competition and war - kill, bomb, blast, flame
- they are not so much coming out to entertain as to "kill" - this is, in
fact, the only arena in which this would work correctly. And the aim is to
explore, Anytime anyone does anything, it is open for dissent. And we all
have to come to that arena expecting dissent. I certainly did here. As you
can see, I'm not getting upset with you or anyone else for not agreeing
with me. I know that the material I'm suggesting is difficult. The original
cacophany society did a lot of difficult stuff that made a lot of people a
little uncomfortable. There was some power in that. And much learning was
had. I rarely learn when I'm feeling perfectly comfortable. I'm sure you've
found the same to be true of your students and needed from time to time,
challenge and disturb them a bit.

There are lots of people who are angered or saddened by the other cacophony
events too - I was told point blank that I was going to hell for riding the
light rail pantsless because I was telling kids that it was ok to be
"slutty" though I was dressed about as conservatively as possible and even
my **** were conservative - showing not much more leg than most shorts.
The whole concept of cacophony events is disruption and disruption of the
expected will always cause some of that reaction.

I think the reason this stands out so much more to you is because some of
the members of this group still believe in the special place of performers
but I assure you, that belief is a construct exactly like the religious
adherence to holiday celebrations, or dress codes, etc. - it's no more or
less than the other things except that right now it's pushing _your_
buttons instead of "those people out there". Every event we do pushes
someone's buttons - just not most of the people here.

There are a lot of very good artists and entertainers who have seen past
that special privileged place for entertainers and artists and made peace
with it and this is not pushing their buttons because that is not a sacred
cow anymore for them. And if poking at sacred cows is not what cacophony is
about - what is it exactly? And if we're not willing to push our own
buttons, why do we have the right to push the Christians or the
politicians, or the mores of society on impropriety in public places?
Wouldn't that make us raging hypocrites?

Santarchy disrupts many other people expected holiday experience and makes
it about _our_ way - a way that is offense to many who celebrate the normal
way. Also, if you look back into the history of cacophony events, you'll
see lots of instances of caco and even santarchy doing just that - a famous
example is when they accosted Chuck Palahniuk at a book signing and reading
- forced him to drink from a bottle of whiskey, don a santa suit and
threatened him with "the first rule of santarchy is we don't talk about
santarchy!"

I do understand the desire to coddle - I have it myself. But it's actually
something that interrupts the artist's journey, I believe. I've seen much
evidence to this effect myself and I'm guessing that if you look beyond
your first impression, you might end up seeing it too. It certainly wasn't
my first impression - it was so counter-intuitive, however, experience and
clear eye has taught me that this is the case.

On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 3:47 PM, GingherL <> wrote:

>
>
>
> The thing about your art school critiques though, is that you went in
> knowing it was a critique ahead of time. You knew what you were up against
> and maybe even prepared for it.
>
> I can see your point that some performers might catch on and end up
> enjoying it or be sharper for it, but I believe others might be saddened by
> the attack. Yes it's a hard world. Especially for performers, artists,
> musicians, and the like. They take more than their share of rejection
> already. And I don't like the idea of going to someone else's performance
> and making it about my agenda. Santarchy is about the participants, they
> are not disrupting someone else's performance.
>
> I have been on both sides--as an art student and musician, and now as a
> professor. I don't think that everyone is cut out to be an artist. Some
> students will never make it past a class or two even with great intentions.
> However, these same people might become patrons of the arts, donors to the
> arts, museum or gallery owners. If my harshness crushes that out of them
> before they even develop an appreciation for what they're doing than I've
> done a disservice to the art world. There are ways of being honest without
> being cruel.
>
> I would rather see this group heckle a session of congress--
>
> I will have to respectfully agree to disagree.
> Best,
> Gingher
>
> *Gingher Leyendecker, Ph.D.*
> *MCC Life Drawing/Anatomy*
> *(480) 461-7623*
> *
> *
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mar 20, 2012, at 12:06 PM, Sondra Carr wrote:
>
>
>
> I've considered that, GingherL, and it would actually ruin the effect it
> has that is interesting at all - I was a little worried myself the first
> time and I'm empathetic to the plight of the newbie, having gone through
> the torture of art school critiques - but I now know what those profs knew
> then - without that critique you will never be good. This is simply a fact
> of creation. It's a painful one, but it can be done with that in mind. If a
> comedian is on a stage in public and has not prepared himself for critique,
> someone really should have made him aware of it before then. This is likely
> the most gentle way he will first encounter it and I realize that seems
> counter-intuitvie but there is something about it being a whole group
> heckling that makes it so ridiculous that it ceases to be the same animal
> as that one lone angry drunk heckler that you're used to.
>
> I instituted the "fish tie of silence' to handle this - when I think a
> heckler is going in too far or stepping on the tender toes of a neophyte
> too much, I'll put the tie on them and they have to shut up (and if they
> don't, I have other means) - this will create a silliness that said
> neophyte comic can play off of as the offending heckler sits there unable
> to retort and we turn on our own to heckle him or her.
>
> But from the last one of these we did - here's what I found - the
> neophytes DID respond with sadness/ despair - for a moment. BUT - by the
> end of the night, they had joined with their more seasoned pro brethren and
> were more interested and even a little excited about what was happening and
> (I believe) what they could do with it later.
>
> I remember when my kids were little and I would challenge them in certain
> ways and man, everyone would say "you shouldn't do that at that age - they
> need to be coddled" and I said "I get what you're saying, but you know,
> you're wrong" History and experience all back me here in saying, I get that
> it feels uncomfortable and that it's a moral gray area but the fact is that
> this is more help than hinder - it's a mental obstacle course that we're
> providing and they are making the choice to do this publicly which means
> that they must be prepared for critique, just as I am prepared for your
> critique here in making this public.
>
> Anyway - note that I've considered these things and instituted rules in
> order to assuage some of them - this isn't full on chaos. But I actually
> don't think it's that much different than Santarchy - with Santarchy, we're
> challenging the notion of a fully recognized and celebrated event being
> universal. With this we're challenging the wall between the performer and
> the audience as being some special sacred cow that should never be crossed.
> The very best performers are able to work without the protection of walls.
> I don't intend to break them down crashing on anyone's stage, but to gently
> nudge them and poke at them and let people explore what they are really
> made of - from my perspective, the intention is always just to see more of
> what the world is really made of.
>
> Ian - if we ever decide to move on to musical venues, I assure you we'll
> all come prepared to take on your fans. And you can thank me later at how
> mega hyped they all will be on that night. I like gin and tonics for the
> record.
>
> On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 11:23 AM, Ruvi W <> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks Gingh for demonstrating how to provide a different viewpoint.
>>
>> Oh... and if anyone dares to heckle the Hardways...
>> they are a likely to be raged on by rabid fans! ;)
>>
>> R
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 11:03 AM, GingherL <> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> After reading these posts and the link, my opinion is that it seems like
>>> a fun event that would challenge the norm and the performers. At the same
>>> time, for an amateur it takes a lot to put yourself out there. New
>>> performers are probably nervous and doing everything they can to just
>>> remember what they are doing, their timing, etc. To be blindsided by a
>>> bunch of hecklers could be pretty rough.
>>>
>>> I would say to make it fair--let them know you're coming. That way they
>>> can prepare a barrage of backlash that creates an interaction and a two-way
>>> energy.
>>>
>>> Feel free to come heckle The Hardways anytime you'd like!
>>>
>>> XXOO
>>> Gingh
>>>
>>> *Gingher Leyendecker, Ph.D.*
>>> *MCC Life Drawing/Anatomy*
>>> *(480) 461-7623*
>>> *
>>> *
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> _________
>> Ruvi W )'(
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> AzCacophony mailing list
>>
>> Click this link to unsubscribe or change settings:
>> https://ellermann.net/mailman/listinfo/azcacophony
>> http://www.azcacophony.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Sondra
>
> "If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy; if the world were
> merely challenging, that would be no problem. But I wake up each morning
> torn between a desire to save the world and a desire to savor the world.
> This makes it very hard to plan the day." -- E. B. White
> _______________________________________________
> AzCacophony mailing list
>
> Click this link to unsubscribe or change settings:
> https://ellermann.net/mailman/listinfo/azcacophony
> http://www.azcacophony.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> AzCacophony mailing list
>
> Click this link to unsubscribe or change settings:
> https://ellermann.net/mailman/listinfo/azcacophony
> http://www.azcacophony.org
>
>

--
Sondra

"If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy; if the world were
merely challenging, that would be no problem. But I wake up each morning
torn between a desire to save the world and a desire to savor the world.
This makes it very hard to plan the day." -- E. B. White

Dada art teacher!

What could be more important to an artist of any sort than having their
brains stretched out?

S

On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 4:42 PM, Gary Gibson <> wrote:

>
>
> I had one professor at U Michigan's School of Art who said none of us
> would ever become artists, that you had to be too conformist in H.S trying
> to get good grades needed to be able to get into Michigan to have any
> creativity or soul. He did say that the training we were getting would make
> us great art collectors. I raised my hand and said that I never graduated
> from high school. Got an A in that studio class!
> Gary Gibson
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> AzCacophony mailing list
>
> Click this link to unsubscribe or change settings:
> https://ellermann.net/mailman/**listinfo/azcacophony
> http://www.azcacophony.org
>

--
Sondra

"If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy; if the world were
merely challenging, that would be no problem. But I wake up each morning
torn between a desire to save the world and a desire to savor the world.
This makes it very hard to plan the day." -- E. B. White

Every art student I know realizes what they're in for after the first
crit if they're staying in for the next 2, 4, 8 years. Every comedian
and performer I know realizes they will have rough nights. My personal
buttons have not been pushed. This doesn't challenge my idea of sacred
cows. I'm just not interested and stated my reasons, partly as a way
to bring about a discussion after you said someone attacked you
personally. Otherwise I would have just said "eh" and deleted it.

Anyway, have a ball shaking things up, hope to see you at a different
event!
Best,
Gingher

Gingher Leyendecker, Ph.D.
MCC Life Drawing/Anatomy
(480) 461-7623

On Mar 20, 2012, at 5:01 PM, Sondra Carr wrote:

>
>
> Oh no - not at all. You've been through it, right? Judging by the
> credentials on your name,
>
> No art school student I've ever known went in knowing they are in
> for that and many drop out when they find out. That's how the herd
> gets culled. And no one prepares you or coddles you through it. I
> mean, that may have changed in the last ten or fifteen years, but
> god, I hope it hasn't gotten that stupidly PC now. Having to rise to
> the occasion was one of the most important parts about art school
> for me. Having to deal with that critique and not being prepared for
> it toughened me up and I credit that with making me the person who
> will do her ideas instead of waiting around to make sure it's all ok
> with everyone first.
>
> Counter this with the fact that no comedian on earth gets on any
> public stage without _knowing_ he'll have hecklers, and if he hasn't
> prepared for that, he's completely clueless. There are no patrons of
> the comedy scene - and those comedians who fail at it do not go on
> to patronize that way. I've specifically picked comedy (as opposed
> to other arts) because the entire approach to comedy is about
> competition and war - kill, bomb, blast, flame - they are not so
> much coming out to entertain as to "kill" - this is, in fact, the
> only arena in which this would work correctly. And the aim is to
> explore, Anytime anyone does anything, it is open for dissent. And
> we all have to come to that arena expecting dissent. I certainly did
> here. As you can see, I'm not getting upset with you or anyone else
> for not agreeing with me. I know that the material I'm suggesting is
> difficult. The original cacophany society did a lot of difficult
> stuff that made a lot of people a little uncomfortable. There was
> some power in that. And much learning was had. I rarely learn when
> I'm feeling perfectly comfortable. I'm sure you've found the same to
> be true of your students and needed from time to time, challenge and
> disturb them a bit.
>
> There are lots of people who are angered or saddened by the other
> cacophony events too - I was told point blank that I was going to
> hell for riding the light rail pantsless because I was telling kids
> that it was ok to be "slutty" though I was dressed about as
> conservatively as possible and even my **** were conservative -
> showing not much more leg than most shorts. The whole concept of
> cacophony events is disruption and disruption of the expected will
> always cause some of that reaction.
>
> I think the reason this stands out so much more to you is because
> some of the members of this group still believe in the special place
> of performers but I assure you, that belief is a construct exactly
> like the religious adherence to holiday celebrations, or dress
> codes, etc. - it's no more or less than the other things except that
> right now it's pushing _your_ buttons instead of "those people out
> there". Every event we do pushes someone's buttons - just not most
> of the people here.
>
> There are a lot of very good artists and entertainers who have seen
> past that special privileged place for entertainers and artists and
> made peace with it and this is not pushing their buttons because
> that is not a sacred cow anymore for them. And if poking at sacred
> cows is not what cacophony is about - what is it exactly? And if
> we're not willing to push our own buttons, why do we have the right
> to push the Christians or the politicians, or the mores of society
> on impropriety in public places? Wouldn't that make us raging
> hypocrites?
>
> Santarchy disrupts many other people expected holiday experience and
> makes it about _our_ way - a way that is offense to many who
> celebrate the normal way. Also, if you look back into the history of
> cacophony events, you'll see lots of instances of caco and even
> santarchy doing just that - a famous example is when they accosted
> Chuck Palahniuk at a book signing and reading - forced him to drink
> from a bottle of whiskey, don a santa suit and threatened him with
> "the first rule of santarchy is we don't talk about santarchy!"
>
> I do understand the desire to coddle - I have it myself. But it's
> actually something that interrupts the artist's journey, I believe.
> I've seen much evidence to this effect myself and I'm guessing that
> if you look beyond your first impression, you might end up seeing it
> too. It certainly wasn't my first impression - it was so counter-
> intuitive, however, experience and clear eye has taught me that this
> is the case.
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 3:47 PM, GingherL <> wrote:
>
>
>
> The thing about your art school critiques though, is that you went
> in knowing it was a critique ahead of time. You knew what you were
> up against and maybe even prepared for it.
>
> I can see your point that some performers might catch on and end up
> enjoying it or be sharper for it, but I believe others might be
> saddened by the attack. Yes it's a hard world. Especially for
> performers, artists, musicians, and the like. They take more than
> their share of rejection already. And I don't like the idea of going
> to someone else's performance and making it about my agenda.
> Santarchy is about the participants, they are not disrupting someone
> else's performance.
>
> I have been on both sides--as an art student and musician, and now
> as a professor. I don't think that everyone is cut out to be an
> artist. Some students will never make it past a class or two even
> with great intentions. However, these same people might become
> patrons of the arts, donors to the arts, museum or gallery owners.
> If my harshness crushes that out of them before they even develop an
> appreciation for what they're doing than I've done a disservice to
> the art world. There are ways of being honest without being cruel.
>
> I would rather see this group heckle a session of congress--
>
> I will have to respectfully agree to disagree.
> Best,
> Gingher
>
> Gingher Leyendecker, Ph.D.
> MCC Life Drawing/Anatomy
> (480) 461-7623
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mar 20, 2012, at 12:06 PM, Sondra Carr wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I've considered that, GingherL, and it would actually ruin the
>> effect it has that is interesting at all - I was a little worried
>> myself the first time and I'm empathetic to the plight of the
>> newbie, having gone through the torture of art school critiques -
>> but I now know what those profs knew then - without that critique
>> you will never be good. This is simply a fact of creation. It's a
>> painful one, but it can be done with that in mind. If a comedian is
>> on a stage in public and has not prepared himself for critique,
>> someone really should have made him aware of it before then. This
>> is likely the most gentle way he will first encounter it and I
>> realize that seems counter-intuitvie but there is something about
>> it being a whole group heckling that makes it so ridiculous that it
>> ceases to be the same animal as that one lone angry drunk heckler
>> that you're used to.
>>
>> I instituted the "fish tie of silence' to handle this - when I
>> think a heckler is going in too far or stepping on the tender toes
>> of a neophyte too much, I'll put the tie on them and they have to
>> shut up (and if they don't, I have other means) - this will create
>> a silliness that said neophyte comic can play off of as the
>> offending heckler sits there unable to retort and we turn on our
>> own to heckle him or her.
>>
>> But from the last one of these we did - here's what I found - the
>> neophytes DID respond with sadness/ despair - for a moment. BUT -
>> by the end of the night, they had joined with their more seasoned
>> pro brethren and were more interested and even a little excited
>> about what was happening and (I believe) what they could do with it
>> later.
>>
>> I remember when my kids were little and I would challenge them in
>> certain ways and man, everyone would say "you shouldn't do that at
>> that age - they need to be coddled" and I said "I get what you're
>> saying, but you know, you're wrong" History and experience all back
>> me here in saying, I get that it feels uncomfortable and that it's
>> a moral gray area but the fact is that this is more help than
>> hinder - it's a mental obstacle course that we're providing and
>> they are making the choice to do this publicly which means that
>> they must be prepared for critique, just as I am prepared for your
>> critique here in making this public.
>>
>> Anyway - note that I've considered these things and instituted
>> rules in order to assuage some of them - this isn't full on chaos.
>> But I actually don't think it's that much different than Santarchy
>> - with Santarchy, we're challenging the notion of a fully
>> recognized and celebrated event being universal. With this we're
>> challenging the wall between the performer and the audience as
>> being some special sacred cow that should never be crossed. The
>> very best performers are able to work without the protection of
>> walls. I don't intend to break them down crashing on anyone's
>> stage, but to gently nudge them and poke at them and let people
>> explore what they are really made of - from my perspective, the
>> intention is always just to see more of what the world is really
>> made of.
>>
>> Ian - if we ever decide to move on to musical venues, I assure you
>> we'll all come prepared to take on your fans. And you can thank me
>> later at how mega hyped they all will be on that night. I like gin
>> and tonics for the record.
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 11:23 AM, Ruvi W <> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks Gingh for demonstrating how to provide a different viewpoint.
>>
>> Oh... and if anyone dares to heckle the Hardways... they are a
>> likely to be raged on by rabid fans! ;)
>>
>> R
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 11:03 AM, GingherL <>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> After reading these posts and the link, my opinion is that it seems
>> like a fun event that would challenge the norm and the performers.
>> At the same time, for an amateur it takes a lot to put yourself out
>> there. New performers are probably nervous and doing everything
>> they can to just remember what they are doing, their timing, etc.
>> To be blindsided by a bunch of hecklers could be pretty rough.
>>
>> I would say to make it fair--let them know you're coming. That way
>> they can prepare a barrage of backlash that creates an interaction
>> and a two-way energy.
>>
>> Feel free to come heckle The Hardways anytime you'd like!
>>
>> XXOO
>> Gingh
>>
>> Gingher Leyendecker, Ph.D.
>> MCC Life Drawing/Anatomy
>> (480) 461-7623
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> _________
>> Ruvi W )'(
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> AzCacophony mailing list
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sondra
>>
>> "If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy; if the
>> world were merely challenging, that would be no problem. But I wake
>> up each morning torn between a desire to save the world and a
>> desire to savor the world. This makes it very hard to plan the
>> day." -- E. B. White
>> _______________________________________________
>> AzCacophony mailing list
>>
>> Click this link to unsubscribe or change settings: https://ellermann.net/mailman/listinfo/azcacophony
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
> AzCacophony mailing list
>
> Click this link to unsubscribe or change settings: https://ellermann.net/mailman/listinfo/azcacophony
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>
>
>
>
> --
> Sondra
>
> "If the world were merely seductive, that would be easy; if the
> world were merely challenging, that would be no problem. But I wake
> up each morning torn between a desire to save the world and a desire
> to savor the world. This makes it very hard to plan the day." -- E.
> B. White
> _______________________________________________
> AzCacophony mailing list
>
> Click this link to unsubscribe or change settings: https://ellermann.net/mailman/listinfo/azcacophony
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#17

21-03-2012 01:05 AM

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#18

21-03-2012 01:29 AM

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21-03-2012 02:40 AM

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