We've been practicing Uchi Mata in our club recently, and as my curiosity
about small details regarding technique inevitably lead me to YouTube, I'd
like to pose a couple comments.

In the Yamashita video below, and I admit the sound quality interferes with
the lesson, I get the sense that sensei is telling his audience to pull
down, as if to pin uke's weight on one foot and make it harder for uke to
resist. At least I think that's what's being said.

The two demos below seem to be somewhat conflicting, although I think the
differences can be partially explained as being two different styles of
uchi mata: Yamashita's being a leg/side uchi mata, while Yoshida's is more
of a hip/centered style.

Do any of you coach or practice Yamashita's pull down kuzushi? Am I
misunderstanding the video (probably).

*Yamashita demo*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubchMudARVE&feature=related

By contrast, in the video below Yoshida seems to be making a big point out
of pulling uke's hand so high that you can see under it.

*Yoshida demo*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMl8Ic0p3Lk
_______________________________________________
JudoList mailing list

http://chas-ma.com/mailman/listinfo/judolist_chas-ma.com
)

On Dec 7, 2011, at 2:38 PM, flugenblar wrote:

> We've been practicing Uchi Mata in our club recently, and as my curiosity
> about small details regarding technique inevitably lead me to YouTube, I'd
> like to pose a couple comments.
>
> In the Yamashita video below, and I admit the sound quality interferes with
> the lesson, I get the sense that sensei is telling his audience to pull
> down, as if to pin uke's weight on one foot and make it harder for uke to
> resist. At least I think that's what's being said.
>
> The two demos below seem to be somewhat conflicting, although I think the
> differences can be partially explained as being two different styles of
> uchi mata: Yamashita's being a leg/side uchi mata, while Yoshida's is more
> of a hip/centered style.
>
> Do any of you coach or practice Yamashita's pull down kuzushi? Am I
> misunderstanding the video (probably).

The biomechanical differences, as you correctly guessed, are based on the fact that these throws are different throws even though they look alike and have the same name.

Yamashita wants to put uke on one supporting leg and throw him over that leg by pulling down on uke's arm and lifting uke's non-supporting leg with his (Yamashita) attacking leg.

Conversely, Yoshida wants to pick uke up on his hip in order to throw him. The exaggerated high pull on the sleeve and the deeper hip insertion make that possible. In actual competition, the sleeve pull is mostly parallel to the ground, and not way above the shoulder.

I find that it's easier for a larger segment of players to learn leg uchi mata (and its ken-ken variation) before they attempt the hip version. The ken-ken skill is also easily transferable to other throws, i.e. O uchi, O soto... Perhaps players have already learned to do ken-ken with O uchi and O soto, so when they get to Uchi mata, it's easier to learn the leg version.
_____________________________
Gerald Lafon
USMC, RVN 70-71
Director, Judo America San Diego
www.judoamerica.com
www.betterjudo.com
858 578-7748



_______________________________________________
JudoList mailing list

http://chas-ma.com/mailman/listinfo/judolist_chas-ma.com
)

I concur completely with Gerald's analysis. Yoshida is teaching a modern
hip-throw uchi-mata, while Yamashita is teaching a classical version that
really resembles uki-otoshi with added boost from a leg. I like Yamashita's
version better technically, though Yoshida's version is perhaps more
frequently seen in shiai. They really are as different, each from the
other, as uki-otoshi and seoi-nage.

Yoshida's uchi-mata doesn't need much comment, I think; but remember when we
were discussing sumi-otoshi, uki-otoshi, and similar throws that pin uke on
a leg and rotate his body over the corresponding hip? It seems to me that
Yamashita's uchi-mata is basically of that kind, and that's why he uses his
hands the way he does.

Have I got that right, Gerald?

-- Carl
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerald Lafon" <>
To: "Discussion of All Aspects of Traditional and Modern Judo"
<>
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: [JudoList] Uchi Mata Hand Pulls


>
> On Dec 7, 2011, at 2:38 PM, flugenblar wrote:
>
>> We've been practicing Uchi Mata in our club recently, and as my curiosity
>> about small details regarding technique inevitably lead me to YouTube,
>> I'd
>> like to pose a couple comments.
>>
>> In the Yamashita video below, and I admit the sound quality interferes
>> with
>> the lesson, I get the sense that sensei is telling his audience to pull
>> down, as if to pin uke's weight on one foot and make it harder for uke to
>> resist. At least I think that's what's being said.
>>
>> The two demos below seem to be somewhat conflicting, although I think the
>> differences can be partially explained as being two different styles of
>> uchi mata: Yamashita's being a leg/side uchi mata, while Yoshida's is
>> more
>> of a hip/centered style.
>>
>> Do any of you coach or practice Yamashita's pull down kuzushi? Am I
>> misunderstanding the video (probably).
>
> The biomechanical differences, as you correctly guessed, are based on the
> fact that these throws are different throws even though they look alike
> and have the same name.
>
> Yamashita wants to put uke on one supporting leg and throw him over that
> leg by pulling down on uke's arm and lifting uke's non-supporting leg with
> his (Yamashita) attacking leg.
>
> Conversely, Yoshida wants to pick uke up on his hip in order to throw him.
> The exaggerated high pull on the sleeve and the deeper hip insertion make
> that possible. In actual competition, the sleeve pull is mostly parallel
> to the ground, and not way above the shoulder.
>
> I find that it's easier for a larger segment of players to learn leg uchi
> mata (and its ken-ken variation) before they attempt the hip version. The
> ken-ken skill is also easily transferable to other throws, i.e. O uchi, O
> soto... Perhaps players have already learned to do ken-ken with O uchi
> and O soto, so when they get to Uchi mata, it's easier to learn the leg
> version.
> _____________________________
> Gerald Lafon
> USMC, RVN 70-71
> Director, Judo America San Diego
> www.judoamerica.com
> www.betterjudo.com
> 858 578-7748
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> JudoList mailing list
>
> http://chas-ma.com/mailman/listinfo/judolist_chas-ma.com


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http://chas-ma.com/mailman/listinfo/judolist_chas-ma.com
)

I teach the entry to ashi uchimata (Yamashita's Tai Otoshi) much like my entry into tai otoshi.I plant my right foot near uki's left foot and pivot to my left.  I teach the pull with the hands always the same - so my left hand is high like I am looking at my watch.  The right hand comes up to somewhere in front of my shoulder with the feeling like I am going to throw a punch.  In Tai otoshi the uki comes onto one foot with the leg plumb.  For the ashi uchimata he can be pushing back against you so his near (left leg is unweighted,a nd you reap that.  You use your hands and body twist to motor him over.

The hip uchimata  is not a  throw I typically get in randori so my understanding is what it is.  I enter the same way, but more to the uki's center line, My turn wraps the uki onto me, and I leave enough space so that he can come off balance to his front.  My right hand draws him onto my side and hip.  Kake is bowing my head and reaping and I twist my body to the left and punch through with my right hand.  The entry is how I enter for hip throws in general and seoi nage.

Jon


________________________________
From: Gerald Lafon <>
To: Discussion of All Aspects of Traditional and Modern Judo <>
Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2011 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: [JudoList] Uchi Mata Hand Pulls


On Dec 7, 2011, at 2:38 PM, flugenblar wrote:

> We've been practicing Uchi Mata in our club recently, and as my curiosity
> about small details regarding technique inevitably lead me to YouTube, I'd
> like to pose a couple comments.
>
> In the Yamashita video below, and I admit the sound quality interferes with
> the lesson, I get the sense that sensei is telling his audience to pull
> down, as if to pin uke's weight on one foot and make it harder for uke to
> resist.  At least I think that's what's being said.
>
> The two demos below seem to be somewhat conflicting, although I think the
> differences can be partially explained as being two different styles of
> uchi mata: Yamashita's being a leg/side uchi mata, while Yoshida's is more
> of a hip/centered style.
>
> Do any of you coach or practice Yamashita's pull down kuzushi?  Am I
> misunderstanding the video (probably).

The biomechanical differences, as you correctly guessed, are based on the fact that these throws are different throws even though they look alike and have the same name.

Yamashita wants to put uke on one supporting leg and throw him over that leg by pulling down on uke's arm and lifting uke's non-supporting leg with his (Yamashita) attacking leg.

Conversely, Yoshida wants to pick uke up on his hip in order to throw him.  The exaggerated high pull on the sleeve and the deeper hip insertion make that possible.  In actual competition, the sleeve pull is mostly parallel to the ground, and not way above the shoulder.

I find that it's easier for a larger segment of players to learn leg uchi mata (and its ken-ken variation) before they attempt the hip version.  The ken-ken skill is also easily transferable to other throws, i.e. O uchi, O soto...  Perhaps players have already learned to do ken-ken with O uchi and O soto, so when they get to Uchi mata, it's easier to learn the leg version.
_____________________________
Gerald Lafon
USMC, RVN 70-71
Director, Judo America San Diego
www.judoamerica.com
www.betterjudo.com
858 578-7748



_______________________________________________
JudoList mailing list

http://chas-ma.com/mailman/listinfo/judolist_chas-ma.com
_______________________________________________
JudoList mailing list

http://chas-ma.com/mailman/listinfo/judolist_chas-ma.com
)

OK Carl, you opened the door to my next question! I've often wondered if
Uki Otoshi could be linked to leg-style Uchi Mata...

~either as a counter: side step the reap, position yourself in front of
attacker, then pull him into Uki Otoshi...
...OR...
~as a continuation: attack Uchi Mata, your reap is side-stepped, position
yourself in front of the attacker, then pull him into Uki Otoshi

I find both of these ideas a little intriguing, but I imagine they probably
both require a level of speed and extra movement that may not make them
appropriate for competition - just something interesting to watch.


On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 5:20 PM, Carl Hayes <>wrote:

> I concur completely with Gerald's analysis. Yoshida is teaching a modern
> hip-throw uchi-mata, while Yamashita is teaching a classical version that
> really resembles uki-otoshi with added boost from a leg. I like
> Yamashita's version better technically, though Yoshida's version is perhaps
> more frequently seen in shiai. They really are as different, each from the
> other, as uki-otoshi and seoi-nage.
>
> Yoshida's uchi-mata doesn't need much comment, I think; but remember when
> we were discussing sumi-otoshi, uki-otoshi, and similar throws that pin uke
> on a leg and rotate his body over the corresponding hip? It seems to me
> that Yamashita's uchi-mata is basically of that kind, and that's why he
> uses his hands the way he does.
>
> Have I got that right, Gerald?
>
> -- Carl
> .
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Lafon" <>
> To: "Discussion of All Aspects of Traditional and Modern Judo" <
> >
> Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 7:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [JudoList] Uchi Mata Hand Pulls
>
>
>
>
>> On Dec 7, 2011, at 2:38 PM, flugenblar wrote:
>>
>> We've been practicing Uchi Mata in our club recently, and as my curiosity
>>> about small details regarding technique inevitably lead me to YouTube,
>>> I'd
>>> like to pose a couple comments.
>>>
>>> In the Yamashita video below, and I admit the sound quality interferes
>>> with
>>> the lesson, I get the sense that sensei is telling his audience to pull
>>> down, as if to pin uke's weight on one foot and make it harder for uke to
>>> resist. At least I think that's what's being said.
>>>
>>> The two demos below seem to be somewhat conflicting, although I think the
>>> differences can be partially explained as being two different styles of
>>> uchi mata: Yamashita's being a leg/side uchi mata, while Yoshida's is
>>> more
>>> of a hip/centered style.
>>>
>>> Do any of you coach or practice Yamashita's pull down kuzushi? Am I
>>> misunderstanding the video (probably).
>>>
>>
>> The biomechanical differences, as you correctly guessed, are based on the
>> fact that these throws are different throws even though they look alike and
>> have the same name.
>>
>> Yamashita wants to put uke on one supporting leg and throw him over that
>> leg by pulling down on uke's arm and lifting uke's non-supporting leg with
>> his (Yamashita) attacking leg.
>>
>> Conversely, Yoshida wants to pick uke up on his hip in order to throw
>> him. The exaggerated high pull on the sleeve and the deeper hip insertion
>> make that possible. In actual competition, the sleeve pull is mostly
>> parallel to the ground, and not way above the shoulder.
>>
>> I find that it's easier for a larger segment of players to learn leg uchi
>> mata (and its ken-ken variation) before they attempt the hip version. The
>> ken-ken skill is also easily transferable to other throws, i.e. O uchi, O
>> soto... Perhaps players have already learned to do ken-ken with O uchi and
>> O soto, so when they get to Uchi mata, it's easier to learn the leg version.
>> _____________________________
>> Gerald Lafon
>> USMC, RVN 70-71
>> Director, Judo America San Diego
>> www.judoamerica.com
>> www.betterjudo.com
>> 858 578-7748
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> JudoList mailing list
>>
>> http://chas-ma.com/mailman/**listinfo/judolist_chas-ma.com
>>
>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> JudoList mailing list
>
> http://chas-ma.com/mailman/**listinfo/judolist_chas-ma.com
>



--
Craig Engel

***
It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart
you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong. ~Richard P.
Feynman
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http://chas-ma.com/mailman/listinfo/judolist_chas-ma.com
)

This was one of my instructors counters that we drilled, Pull you foot out so the way of the Uchimata reap and step forward with hand actions into uke otoshi


________________________________
From: flugenblar <>
To: Discussion of All Aspects of Traditional and Modern Judo <>
Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2011 8:29 PM
Subject: Re: [JudoList] Uchi Mata Hand Pulls

OK Carl, you opened the door to my next question!  I've often wondered if
Uki Otoshi could be linked to leg-style Uchi Mata...

~either as a counter: side step the reap, position yourself in front of
attacker, then pull him into Uki Otoshi...
...OR...
~as a continuation: attack Uchi Mata, your reap is side-stepped, position
yourself in front of the attacker, then pull him into Uki Otoshi

I find both of these ideas a little intriguing, but I imagine they probably
both require a level of speed and extra movement that may not make them
appropriate for competition - just something interesting to watch.


On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 5:20 PM, Carl Hayes <>wrote:

> I concur completely with Gerald's analysis.  Yoshida is teaching a modern
> hip-throw uchi-mata, while Yamashita is teaching a classical version that
> really resembles uki-otoshi with added boost from a leg.  I like
> Yamashita's version better technically, though Yoshida's version is perhaps
> more frequently seen in shiai.  They really are as different, each from the
> other, as uki-otoshi and seoi-nage.
>
> Yoshida's uchi-mata doesn't need much comment, I think; but remember when
> we were discussing sumi-otoshi, uki-otoshi, and similar throws that pin uke
> on a leg and rotate his body over the corresponding hip?  It seems to me
> that Yamashita's uchi-mata is basically of that kind, and that's why he
> uses his hands the way he does.
>
> Have I got that right, Gerald?
>
>  -- Carl
> .
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Lafon" <>
> To: "Discussion of All Aspects of Traditional and Modern Judo" <
> >
> Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 7:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [JudoList] Uchi Mata Hand Pulls
>
>
>
>
>> On Dec 7, 2011, at 2:38 PM, flugenblar wrote:
>>
>>  We've been practicing Uchi Mata in our club recently, and as my curiosity
>>> about small details regarding technique inevitably lead me to YouTube,
>>> I'd
>>> like to pose a couple comments.
>>>
>>> In the Yamashita video below, and I admit the sound quality interferes
>>> with
>>> the lesson, I get the sense that sensei is telling his audience to pull
>>> down, as if to pin uke's weight on one foot and make it harder for uke to
>>> resist.  At least I think that's what's being said.
>>>
>>> The two demos below seem to be somewhat conflicting, although I think the
>>> differences can be partially explained as being two different styles of
>>> uchi mata: Yamashita's being a leg/side uchi mata, while Yoshida's is
>>> more
>>> of a hip/centered style.
>>>
>>> Do any of you coach or practice Yamashita's pull down kuzushi?  Am I
>>> misunderstanding the video (probably).
>>>
>>
>> The biomechanical differences, as you correctly guessed, are based on the
>> fact that these throws are different throws even though they look alike and
>> have the same name.
>>
>> Yamashita wants to put uke on one supporting leg and throw him over that
>> leg by pulling down on uke's arm and lifting uke's non-supporting leg with
>> his (Yamashita) attacking leg.
>>
>> Conversely, Yoshida wants to pick uke up on his hip in order to throw
>> him. The exaggerated high pull on the sleeve and the deeper hip insertion
>> make that possible.  In actual competition, the sleeve pull is mostly
>> parallel to the ground, and not way above the shoulder.
>>
>> I find that it's easier for a larger segment of players to learn leg uchi
>> mata (and its ken-ken variation) before they attempt the hip version.  The
>> ken-ken skill is also easily transferable to other throws, i.e. O uchi, O
>> soto...  Perhaps players have already learned to do ken-ken with O uchi and
>> O soto, so when they get to Uchi mata, it's easier to learn the leg version.
>> _____________________________
>> Gerald Lafon
>> USMC, RVN 70-71
>> Director, Judo America San Diego
>> www.judoamerica.com
>> www.betterjudo.com
>> 858 578-7748
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> JudoList mailing list
>>
>> http://chas-ma.com/mailman/**listinfo/judolist_chas-ma.com
>>
>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> JudoList mailing list
>
> http://chas-ma.com/mailman/**listinfo/judolist_chas-ma.com
>



--
Craig Engel

***
It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart
you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.  ~Richard P.
Feynman
_______________________________________________
JudoList mailing list

http://chas-ma.com/mailman/listinfo/judolist_chas-ma.com
_______________________________________________
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http://chas-ma.com/mailman/listinfo/judolist_chas-ma.com
)

Actually, I have always considered ashi-uchi-mata to be more akin to
okuri-ashi-barai.

Rod

-----Original Message-----
From: judolist- [mailto:judolist-] On
Behalf Of flugenblar
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 12:30 PM
To: Discussion of All Aspects of Traditional and Modern Judo
Subject: Re: [JudoList] Uchi Mata Hand Pulls

OK Carl, you opened the door to my next question! I've often wondered if
Uki Otoshi could be linked to leg-style Uchi Mata...

~either as a counter: side step the reap, position yourself in front of
attacker, then pull him into Uki Otoshi...
...OR...
~as a continuation: attack Uchi Mata, your reap is side-stepped, position
yourself in front of the attacker, then pull him into Uki Otoshi

I find both of these ideas a little intriguing, but I imagine they probably
both require a level of speed and extra movement that may not make them
appropriate for competition - just something interesting to watch.


On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 5:20 PM, Carl Hayes <>wrote:

> I concur completely with Gerald's analysis. Yoshida is teaching a
> modern hip-throw uchi-mata, while Yamashita is teaching a classical
> version that really resembles uki-otoshi with added boost from a leg.
> I like Yamashita's version better technically, though Yoshida's
> version is perhaps more frequently seen in shiai. They really are as
> different, each from the other, as uki-otoshi and seoi-nage.
>
> Yoshida's uchi-mata doesn't need much comment, I think; but remember
> when we were discussing sumi-otoshi, uki-otoshi, and similar throws
> that pin uke on a leg and rotate his body over the corresponding hip?
> It seems to me that Yamashita's uchi-mata is basically of that kind,
> and that's why he uses his hands the way he does.
>
> Have I got that right, Gerald?
>
> -- Carl
> .
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Lafon"
> <>
> To: "Discussion of All Aspects of Traditional and Modern Judo" <
> >
> Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 7:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [JudoList] Uchi Mata Hand Pulls
>
>
>
>
>> On Dec 7, 2011, at 2:38 PM, flugenblar wrote:
>>
>> We've been practicing Uchi Mata in our club recently, and as my
>> curiosity
>>> about small details regarding technique inevitably lead me to
>>> YouTube, I'd like to pose a couple comments.
>>>
>>> In the Yamashita video below, and I admit the sound quality
>>> interferes with the lesson, I get the sense that sensei is telling
>>> his audience to pull down, as if to pin uke's weight on one foot and
>>> make it harder for uke to resist. At least I think that's what's
>>> being said.
>>>
>>> The two demos below seem to be somewhat conflicting, although I
>>> think the differences can be partially explained as being two
>>> different styles of uchi mata: Yamashita's being a leg/side uchi
>>> mata, while Yoshida's is more of a hip/centered style.
>>>
>>> Do any of you coach or practice Yamashita's pull down kuzushi? Am I
>>> misunderstanding the video (probably).
>>>
>>
>> The biomechanical differences, as you correctly guessed, are based on
>> the fact that these throws are different throws even though they look
>> alike and have the same name.
>>
>> Yamashita wants to put uke on one supporting leg and throw him over
>> that leg by pulling down on uke's arm and lifting uke's
>> non-supporting leg with his (Yamashita) attacking leg.
>>
>> Conversely, Yoshida wants to pick uke up on his hip in order to throw
>> him. The exaggerated high pull on the sleeve and the deeper hip
>> insertion make that possible. In actual competition, the sleeve pull
>> is mostly parallel to the ground, and not way above the shoulder.
>>
>> I find that it's easier for a larger segment of players to learn leg
>> uchi mata (and its ken-ken variation) before they attempt the hip
>> version. The ken-ken skill is also easily transferable to other
>> throws, i.e. O uchi, O soto... Perhaps players have already learned
>> to do ken-ken with O uchi and O soto, so when they get to Uchi mata, it's
easier to learn the leg version.
>> _____________________________
>> Gerald Lafon
>> USMC, RVN 70-71
>> Director, Judo America San Diego
>> www.judoamerica.com
>> www.betterjudo.com
>> 858 578-7748
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> JudoList mailing list
>>
>> http://chas-ma.com/mailman/**listinfo/judolist_chas-ma.com >> s-ma.com/mailman/listinfo/judolist_chas-ma.com>
>>
>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> JudoList mailing list
>
> http://chas-ma.com/mailman/**listinfo/judolist_chas-ma.com > -ma.com/mailman/listinfo/judolist_chas-ma.com>
>



--
Craig Engel

***
It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart
you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong. ~Richard P.
Feynman
_______________________________________________
JudoList mailing list

http://chas-ma.com/mailman/listinfo/judolist_chas-ma.com


_______________________________________________
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)

If your going to do the hip version just do hani goshi instead

Richard Porro

-----Original Message-----
From: judolist- [mailto:judolist-] On
Behalf Of Jonathan Jeffer
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 7:28 PM
To: Discussion of All Aspects of Traditional and Modern Judo
Subject: Re: [JudoList] Uchi Mata Hand Pulls

I teach the entry to ashi uchimata (Yamashita's Tai Otoshi) much like my
entry into tai otoshi.I plant my right foot near uki's left foot and pivot
to my left.  I teach the pull with the hands always the same - so my left
hand is high like I am looking at my watch.  The right hand comes up to
somewhere in front of my shoulder with the feeling like I am going to throw
a punch.  In Tai otoshi the uki comes onto one foot with the leg plumb.  For
the ashi uchimata he can be pushing back against you so his near (left leg
is unweighted,a nd you reap that.  You use your hands and body twist to
motor him over.

The hip uchimata  is not a  throw I typically get in randori so my
understanding is what it is.  I enter the same way, but more to the uki's
center line, My turn wraps the uki onto me, and I leave enough space so that
he can come off balance to his front.  My right hand draws him onto my side
and hip.  Kake is bowing my head and reaping and I twist my body to the left
and punch through with my right hand.  The entry is how I enter for hip
throws in general and seoi nage.

Jon


________________________________
From: Gerald Lafon <>
To: Discussion of All Aspects of Traditional and Modern Judo
<>
Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2011 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: [JudoList] Uchi Mata Hand Pulls


On Dec 7, 2011, at 2:38 PM, flugenblar wrote:

> We've been practicing Uchi Mata in our club recently, and as my curiosity
> about small details regarding technique inevitably lead me to YouTube, I'd
> like to pose a couple comments.
>
> In the Yamashita video below, and I admit the sound quality interferes
with
> the lesson, I get the sense that sensei is telling his audience to pull
> down, as if to pin uke's weight on one foot and make it harder for uke to
> resist.  At least I think that's what's being said.
>
> The two demos below seem to be somewhat conflicting, although I think the
> differences can be partially explained as being two different styles of
> uchi mata: Yamashita's being a leg/side uchi mata, while Yoshida's is more
> of a hip/centered style.
>
> Do any of you coach or practice Yamashita's pull down kuzushi?  Am I
> misunderstanding the video (probably).

The biomechanical differences, as you correctly guessed, are based on the
fact that these throws are different throws even though they look alike and
have the same name.

Yamashita wants to put uke on one supporting leg and throw him over that leg
by pulling down on uke's arm and lifting uke's non-supporting leg with his
(Yamashita) attacking leg.

Conversely, Yoshida wants to pick uke up on his hip in order to throw him. 
The exaggerated high pull on the sleeve and the deeper hip insertion make
that possible.  In actual competition, the sleeve pull is mostly parallel to
the ground, and not way above the shoulder.

I find that it's easier for a larger segment of players to learn leg uchi
mata (and its ken-ken variation) before they attempt the hip version.  The
ken-ken skill is also easily transferable to other throws, i.e. O uchi, O
soto...  Perhaps players have already learned to do ken-ken with O uchi and
O soto, so when they get to Uchi mata, it's easier to learn the leg version.
_____________________________
Gerald Lafon
USMC, RVN 70-71
Director, Judo America San Diego
www.judoamerica.com
www.betterjudo.com
858 578-7748



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Hah! Hane goshi is one of my faves, so naturally, that's usually what
comes out during my uchi mata practice. When one of my students
accidentally does hane goshi during uchi mata practice, I always tell 'em
its great, don't worry. I never apologize for doing a hane goshi when the
class is practicing uchi mata.

I recently learned an 'outside' uchi mata though, from a visiting Japanese
sensei, and I'm really growing to like it. Very Tai-O like...

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 7:11 PM, Richard Porro <> wrote:

> If your going to do the hip version just do hani goshi instead
>
> Richard Porro
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: judolist- [mailto:judolist-]
> On
> Behalf Of Jonathan Jeffer
> Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 7:28 PM
> To: Discussion of All Aspects of Traditional and Modern Judo
> Subject: Re: [JudoList] Uchi Mata Hand Pulls
>
> I teach the entry to ashi uchimata (Yamashita's Tai Otoshi) much like my
> entry into tai otoshi.I plant my right foot near uki's left foot and pivot
> to my left. I teach the pull with the hands always the same - so my left
> hand is high like I am looking at my watch. The right hand comes up to
> somewhere in front of my shoulder with the feeling like I am going to throw
> a punch. In Tai otoshi the uki comes onto one foot with the leg plumb.
> For
> the ashi uchimata he can be pushing back against you so his near (left leg
> is unweighted,a nd you reap that. You use your hands and body twist to
> motor him over.
>
> The hip uchimata is not a throw I typically get in randori so my
> understanding is what it is. I enter the same way, but more to the uki's
> center line, My turn wraps the uki onto me, and I leave enough space so
> that
> he can come off balance to his front. My right hand draws him onto my side
> and hip. Kake is bowing my head and reaping and I twist my body to the
> left
> and punch through with my right hand. The entry is how I enter for hip
> throws in general and seoi nage.
>
> Jon
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Gerald Lafon <>
> To: Discussion of All Aspects of Traditional and Modern Judo
> <>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2011 7:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [JudoList] Uchi Mata Hand Pulls
>
>
> On Dec 7, 2011, at 2:38 PM, flugenblar wrote:
>
> > We've been practicing Uchi Mata in our club recently, and as my curiosity
> > about small details regarding technique inevitably lead me to YouTube,
> I'd
> > like to pose a couple comments.
> >
> > In the Yamashita video below, and I admit the sound quality interferes
> with
> > the lesson, I get the sense that sensei is telling his audience to pull
> > down, as if to pin uke's weight on one foot and make it harder for uke to
> > resist. At least I think that's what's being said.
> >
> > The two demos below seem to be somewhat conflicting, although I think the
> > differences can be partially explained as being two different styles of
> > uchi mata: Yamashita's being a leg/side uchi mata, while Yoshida's is
> more
> > of a hip/centered style.
> >
> > Do any of you coach or practice Yamashita's pull down kuzushi? Am I
> > misunderstanding the video (probably).
>
> The biomechanical differences, as you correctly guessed, are based on the
> fact that these throws are different throws even though they look alike and
> have the same name.
>
> Yamashita wants to put uke on one supporting leg and throw him over that
> leg
> by pulling down on uke's arm and lifting uke's non-supporting leg with his
> (Yamashita) attacking leg.
>
> Conversely, Yoshida wants to pick uke up on his hip in order to throw him.
> The exaggerated high pull on the sleeve and the deeper hip insertion make
> that possible. In actual competition, the sleeve pull is mostly parallel
> to
> the ground, and not way above the shoulder.
>
> I find that it's easier for a larger segment of players to learn leg uchi
> mata (and its ken-ken variation) before they attempt the hip version. The
> ken-ken skill is also easily transferable to other throws, i.e. O uchi, O
> soto... Perhaps players have already learned to do ken-ken with O uchi and
> O soto, so when they get to Uchi mata, it's easier to learn the leg
> version.
> _____________________________
> Gerald Lafon
> USMC, RVN 70-71
> Director, Judo America San Diego
> www.judoamerica.com
> www.betterjudo.com
> 858 578-7748
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> JudoList mailing list
>
> http://chas-ma.com/mailman/listinfo/judolist_chas-ma.com
> _______________________________________________
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>
> http://chas-ma.com/mailman/listinfo/judolist_chas-ma.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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>



--
Craig Engel

***
It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart
you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong. ~Richard P.
Feynman
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Well, isn't uchi-mata-sukashi basically the counter you describe? Although
it's not really necessary to position yourself in front -- you just use his
existing angular momentum. I personally wonder why they gave it a separate
name of its own (uchi-mata-sukashi). Looks like a standing uki-otoshi to
me.

As for your suggested renraku-waza (or really renzoku-waza), I think it
would be difficult because you're in his way. Or did you mean he avoids
your right-side uchi-mata by stepping to his right so your sweeping leg
misses on his left side? That's quite a step for him to make, but I suppose
it's possible.

-- Carl
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "flugenblar" <>
To: "Discussion of All Aspects of Traditional and Modern Judo"
<>
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 8:29 PM
Subject: Re: [JudoList] Uchi Mata Hand Pulls


> OK Carl, you opened the door to my next question! I've often wondered if
> Uki Otoshi could be linked to leg-style Uchi Mata...
>
> ~either as a counter: side step the reap, position yourself in front of
> attacker, then pull him into Uki Otoshi...
> ...OR...
> ~as a continuation: attack Uchi Mata, your reap is side-stepped, position
> yourself in front of the attacker, then pull him into Uki Otoshi
>
> I find both of these ideas a little intriguing, but I imagine they
> probably
> both require a level of speed and extra movement that may not make them
> appropriate for competition - just something interesting to watch.
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 5:20 PM, Carl Hayes
> <>wrote:
>
>> I concur completely with Gerald's analysis. Yoshida is teaching a modern
>> hip-throw uchi-mata, while Yamashita is teaching a classical version that
>> really resembles uki-otoshi with added boost from a leg. I like
>> Yamashita's version better technically, though Yoshida's version is
>> perhaps
>> more frequently seen in shiai. They really are as different, each from
>> the
>> other, as uki-otoshi and seoi-nage.
>>
>> Yoshida's uchi-mata doesn't need much comment, I think; but remember when
>> we were discussing sumi-otoshi, uki-otoshi, and similar throws that pin
>> uke
>> on a leg and rotate his body over the corresponding hip? It seems to me
>> that Yamashita's uchi-mata is basically of that kind, and that's why he
>> uses his hands the way he does.
>>
>> Have I got that right, Gerald?
>>
>> -- Carl
>> .
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Lafon"
>> <>
>> To: "Discussion of All Aspects of Traditional and Modern Judo" <
>> >
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 7:23 PM
>> Subject: Re: [JudoList] Uchi Mata Hand Pulls
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Dec 7, 2011, at 2:38 PM, flugenblar wrote:
>>>
>>> We've been practicing Uchi Mata in our club recently, and as my
>>> curiosity
>>>> about small details regarding technique inevitably lead me to YouTube,
>>>> I'd
>>>> like to pose a couple comments.
>>>>
>>>> In the Yamashita video below, and I admit the sound quality interferes
>>>> with
>>>> the lesson, I get the sense that sensei is telling his audience to pull
>>>> down, as if to pin uke's weight on one foot and make it harder for uke
>>>> to
>>>> resist. At least I think that's what's being said.
>>>>
>>>> The two demos below seem to be somewhat conflicting, although I think
>>>> the
>>>> differences can be partially explained as being two different styles of
>>>> uchi mata: Yamashita's being a leg/side uchi mata, while Yoshida's is
>>>> more
>>>> of a hip/centered style.
>>>>
>>>> Do any of you coach or practice Yamashita's pull down kuzushi? Am I
>>>> misunderstanding the video (probably).
>>>>
>>>
>>> The biomechanical differences, as you correctly guessed, are based on
>>> the
>>> fact that these throws are different throws even though they look alike
>>> and
>>> have the same name.
>>>
>>> Yamashita wants to put uke on one supporting leg and throw him over that
>>> leg by pulling down on uke's arm and lifting uke's non-supporting leg
>>> with
>>> his (Yamashita) attacking leg.
>>>
>>> Conversely, Yoshida wants to pick uke up on his hip in order to throw
>>> him. The exaggerated high pull on the sleeve and the deeper hip
>>> insertion
>>> make that possible. In actual competition, the sleeve pull is mostly
>>> parallel to the ground, and not way above the shoulder.
>>>
>>> I find that it's easier for a larger segment of players to learn leg
>>> uchi
>>> mata (and its ken-ken variation) before they attempt the hip version.
>>> The
>>> ken-ken skill is also easily transferable to other throws, i.e. O uchi,
>>> O
>>> soto... Perhaps players have already learned to do ken-ken with O uchi
>>> and
>>> O soto, so when they get to Uchi mata, it's easier to learn the leg
>>> version.
>>> _____________________________
>>> Gerald Lafon
>>> USMC, RVN 70-71
>>> Director, Judo America San Diego
>>> www.judoamerica.com
>>> www.betterjudo.com
>>> 858 578-7748
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>> JudoList mailing list
>>>
>>> http://chas-ma.com/mailman/**listinfo/judolist_chas-ma.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> JudoList mailing list
>>
>> http://chas-ma.com/mailman/**listinfo/judolist_chas-ma.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Craig Engel
>
> ***
> It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how
> smart
> you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong. ~Richard P.
> Feynman
> _______________________________________________
> JudoList mailing list
>
> http://chas-ma.com/mailman/listinfo/judolist_chas-ma.com
>


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