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Chuck's right -- if it MUST have an F-attachment, then King instruments are about the toughest out there. The old "Cleveland" horns were great!

Earl

KD5XB -- Earl Needham http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cw_bugs Quoting from the Coast Guard: ZUT Posted via Blackberry

-----Original Message-----
From: Charles DePaolo <>
Sender: trombone-l-
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 12:17:39
To:
Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] F Attachments for beginners?

George,

>From someone who deals with school music programs: Regardless of the
wisdom of this list (which is considerable), the band director's wish
trumps all. If he wants F attachments, he gets F attachments. We may
try to dissuade them but ultimately their word is law. As to a good F
trigger horn for a beginner - think about the King 607/608 sisters.
These are 525 bore horns with excellent slides. There are lots of
imported junk horns that cost much less, but they either have inferior
slides, crappy intonation, weigh a ton, have poor valves, or all of the
above. None of these "features" will help your kid succeed. Those Olds
Ambassadors and Conn Directors from back in the day, though not perfect
by any measure, were better IMO than most cheap junk available in eBay
these days.

--Chuck

-----Original Message-----
From: trombone-l-
[mailto:trombone-l-] On Behalf Of
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 11:42 AM
To: trombone-
Subject: [Trombone-l] F Attachments for beginners?

Hi everyone...Just learned that my 12 yr old grandson is going into
beginning band this fall...I encouraged this, letting him try my Bach 16
a few times while they were visiting us a few days back.

Here is the kicker...His band teacher seems to be mandating an F
attachment, and I know very little about them...While I understand the
concept of needing this for more difficult passages as he becomes more
proficient, it seems strange that this would be a requisite for a
beginner.

Would welcome and appreciate any comments from the list, along with
recommendations for an inexpensive (if possible), but dependable F
Attachment starter horn.

Finally, considering the expense of a new instrument, should they
consider a rental for the first year or so to see how he progresses?

Many thanks!

George Eiche
The Villages, FL

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KD5XB -- Earl Needham http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cw_bugs Quoting from the Coast Guard: ZUT Posted via Blackberry

-----Original Message-----
From: Alex Rodriguez <>
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 11:50:31
To: <>
Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] F Attachments for beginners?

agreed -- plus, it's just more tubing that can break!

On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 11:47 AM, Earl Needham <> wrote:
> Should start with a straight horn so the F-attachment doesn't become a "6th position" button. �Starting with an f-attachment will probably stunt the growth of slide technique.
>
> Earl
>
> KD5XB -- Earl Needham http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cw_bugs Quoting from the Coast Guard: ZUT Posted via Blackberry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: <>
> Sender: trombone-l-
> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 11:42:16
> To:
> Subject: [Trombone-l] F Attachments for beginners?
>
> Hi everyone...Just learned that my 12 yr old grandson is going into
> beginning band this fall...I encouraged this, letting him try my Bach 16 a few
> times while they were visiting us a few days back.
>
> Here is the kicker...His band teacher seems to be mandating an F
> attachment, and I know very little about them...While I understand the �concept of
> needing this for more difficult passages as he becomes more �proficient, it
> seems strange that this would be a requisite for a �beginner.
>
> Would welcome and appreciate any comments from the list, along with
> recommendations for an inexpensive (if possible), but dependable F Attachment
> starter horn.
>
> Finally, considering the expense of a new instrument, should they consider
> a rental for the first year or so to see how he progresses?
>
> Many thanks!
>
> George Eiche
> The Villages, FL
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
> Trombone-l mailing list
> Trombone-
> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l
>
>_______________________________________________
> Trombone-l mailing list
> Trombone-
> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l
>

--
Alex W. Rodriguez
MA Candidate in Ethnomusicology
University of California, Los Angeles
http://lubricity.wordpress.com

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)
The only smaller bore F-attachment I have ever played is the King 3B. The
3B on its own has resistance and the additional tubing adds weight and some
stuffiness.

I think .525 born is too big to start on but hey, what do I know?

On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 8:47 AM, Earl Needham <> wrote:

> Should start with a straight horn so the F-attachment doesn't become a "6th
> position" button. Starting with an f-attachment will probably stunt the
> growth of slide technique.
>
> Earl
>
> KD5XB -- Earl Needham http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cw_bugs Quoting from
> the Coast Guard: ZUT Posted via Blackberry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: <>
> Sender: trombone-l-
> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 11:42:16
> To:
> Subject: [Trombone-l] F Attachments for beginners?
>
> Hi everyone...Just learned that my 12 yr old grandson is going into
> beginning band this fall...I encouraged this, letting him try my Bach 16 a
> few
> times while they were visiting us a few days back.
>
> Here is the kicker...His band teacher seems to be mandating an F
> attachment, and I know very little about them...While I understand the
> concept of
> needing this for more difficult passages as he becomes more proficient, it
> seems strange that this would be a requisite for a beginner.
>
> Would welcome and appreciate any comments from the list, along with
> recommendations for an inexpensive (if possible), but dependable F
> Attachment
> starter horn.
>
> Finally, considering the expense of a new instrument, should they consider
> a rental for the first year or so to see how he progresses?
>
> Many thanks!
>
> George Eiche
> The Villages, FL
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Trombone-l mailing list
> Trombone-
> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Trombone-l mailing list
> Trombone-
> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l
>
_______________________________________________
Trombone-l mailing list
Trombone-
http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l
)
How long, I wonder, before this becomes the universal starter trombone?
http://www.pbone.co.uk/

I've got one. It's far from being a joke instrument. The slide is a little
scratchy, but WAY better than the typical student model once it's picked up
a few bruises. It's virtually indestructible. And look at the price!

_______________________________________________
Trombone-l mailing list
Trombone-
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)
Another view on the F attachment. My 12 year old has been playing for three
years with the Yamaha horn that has a C attachment, i.e., it raises the
pitch a whole tone. As she couldn't reach 6th until this year, and now only
reaches 6th with a real stretch, the ability to play C on the staff in first
with the valve was crucial. She has terrific slide technique, uses the
valve for Bb in 3rd (a little in from an F attachment third) and a few other
positions. When she moves to a bigger horn, I don't think this Yamaha will
prove to have held her back at all. It is a little heavy with the C
attachment, so we use an ergobone.

Barry

On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 1:00 PM, wrote:

> Send Trombone-l mailing list submissions to
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> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Trombone-l digest..."
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: New Rochut Book (Heather Nielsen)
> 2. New Music for Summer Brass Quintet Concerts (Ed Hirschman)
> 3. Amazing duo- Daniel Schnyder and David Taylor (eanogmus)
> 4. Re: Mulcahy plays... (Steve Gamble)
> 5. F Attachments for beginners? ()
> 6. Re: F Attachments for beginners? (Earl Needham)
> 7. Re: F Attachments for beginners? (Dennis Clason)
> 8. Re: F Attachments for beginners? ()
> 9. Re: F Attachments for beginners? (Charles DePaolo)
> 10. Re: F Attachments for beginners? (Lawrence Franklin)
> 11. Re: F Attachments for beginners? (Earl Needham)
> 12. Fw: F Attachments for beginners? (Earl Needham)
> 13. Re: F Attachments for beginners? (Price Taylor)
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Heather Nielsen <>
> To:
> Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 13:44:10 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] New Rochut Book
> Wow very cool, though of course after I paid to have my spiral bound. I
> actually have some of the accompaniment from collage. I would love to hear
> more about it. I unfortunately won't make it to ITF (even though it is in
> driving distance) since we are having a family vacation to Vegas.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Attached Message
>
>
>
> From:
>
> Charles DePaolo <>
>
>
>
> To:
>
> trombone-
>
>
>
> Subject:
>
> [Trombone-l] New Rochut Book
>
>
>
> Date:
>
> Mon, 13 Jun 2011 13:25:17 -0400
>
>
>
>
> To My Friends & Colleagues on the Trombone-L:
>
> FYI - Last week, Carl Fischer released a new edition of the popular
> Rochut Melodious Etudes, volume 1. It replaces the old edition, which
> once sold out, will not be available. This is the first major revision
> of the book in its 83 year history. The new edition is completely
> re-engraved, fixes the errors of the first edition and adds back in any
> missing measures. But the big news is that it now includes a CD of the
> piano accompaniments to all 60 etudes (yes, even number 1, which is
> newly composed by the editor, Alan Raph). The accompaniments come in the
> form of both MP3 files for audio playback, as well as PDF files for
> printing out at home. The performances are live recordings done by Rae
> Moses. The PDFs are also newly engraved and match up correctly with the
> solo parts.
>
> We'll be at ITF next week in Nashville. If you're at the show, stop by
> and have a look.
> You can also learn more at our website:
>
> http://www.hickeys.com/pages/sku86846.htm
>
> (please quote this message if you reply)
>
> In Music,
> ---Charles De Paolo, owner
>
> Hickey's Music Center
> 104 Adams Street
> Ithaca, NY 14850
>
> 607.272.8262 (Phone)
> 607.272.2203 (Fax)
> (E-Mail)
> www.hickeys.com (Website)
> Never Forget: www.worldtradetribute.com
>
>
> "the best form of learning is doing something,
> the next is observing it, the least effective is
> hearing about it." -David Unland, from Tuba
> Performance & Pedagogy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Ed Hirschman <>
> To:
> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 01:39:00 -0400
> Subject: [Trombone-l] New Music for Summer Brass Quintet Concerts
> We're pleased to announce a brand new collection of 25 arrangements perfect
> for summer concerts where Patriotic, March and Americana-type music are
> needed. Each and every arrangement in the Library features five (5)
> independent voices (these aren't brass quartets with the bass line
> doubled!)
>
>
>
> The collection and every piece within it can be seen, heard and purchased
> with immediate download at
> http://artofsoundmusic.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=694
>
>
>
> To see and hear a sample, "Yankee Doodle Boy (I�m a Yankee Doodle Dandy)�,
> follow this link: http://bit.ly/k9sO7Y
>
>
>
> To see and hear "Battle Hymn of The Republic", follow this link:
> http://bit.ly/iLigkZ
>
>
>
> The entire list of pieces included are
>
>
> The Corcoran Cadets
>
> America The Beautiful
>
> American Hymn
>
> Anchors Aweigh
>
> Battle Hymn of the Republic
>
> The Bride Elect
>
> Eternal Father, Strong to Save
>
> Joyce's 71st N.Y. Regiment March
>
> Hail to the Chief
>
> Little Brown Jug
>
> The Gladiator
>
> Over There
>
> Semper Fidelis
>
> Shenandoah
>
> The Star Spangled Banner
>
> The Stars and Stripes Forever
>
> Accompaniment version: The Star Spangled Banner
>
> America
>
> Marines' Hymn
>
> The Thunderer
>
> Dixie
>
> When Johnny Comes Marching Home
>
> My Old Kentucky Home
>
> Yankee Doodle Boy
>
> You're a Grand Old Flag
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Ed Hirschman
>
> www.artofsoundmusic.com
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: eanogmus <>
> To:
> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 10:46:43 +0300
> Subject: [Trombone-l] Amazing duo- Daniel Schnyder and David Taylor
>
>
> Amazing duo- Daniel Schnyder and David Taylor
>
> David Taylor, Bass Trombone and Daniel Schnyder, Saxophone, Play Shumacher
> March
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LKN_Q6hl0w
>
> David Taylor, and Daniel Schnyder, Saxophone, Play Around the World Part
> III
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRLYGLRCo7o&NR=1
>
> David Taylor, and Daniel Schnyder, Saxophone, Play Tales of Another Time
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8d_HhbUFqg&feature=related
>
> Daniel Schnyder and David Taylor - Trio as Duo
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn23T_0NCpY&feature=related
>
> Eliezer Aharoni
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Steve Gamble <>
> To: Trombone List
> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 06:39:29 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Mulcahy plays...
> Who is J.L. Hubbard?
>
> Steve Gamble, Librarian
> Tucson Symphony Orchestra
> 2175 N. 6th Ave.
> Tucson, AZ 85705
> 520-792-9155 x118 office
> 520-792-9314 fax
> 520-991-7056 cell
>
> www.tucsonsymphony.org
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: trombone-l-
> [mailto:trombone-l-] On Behalf Of Eric Swanson
> Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 7:54 AM
> To: Trombone List
> Subject: [Trombone-l] Mulcahy plays...
>
> Found these by accident on youtube while looking at another video.
> Some unbelievable trombone playing:
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpI0NDwV94Y&feature=fvwrel
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad9yXIgFHr4&feature=related
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYQgIcFmr7A&feature=related
> _______________________________________________
> Trombone-l mailing list
> Trombone-
> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: <>
> To:
> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 11:42:16 -0400
> Subject: [Trombone-l] F Attachments for beginners?
> Hi everyone...Just learned that my 12 yr old grandson is going into
> beginning band this fall...I encouraged this, letting him try my Bach 16 a
> few
> times while they were visiting us a few days back.
>
> Here is the kicker...His band teacher seems to be mandating an F
> attachment, and I know very little about them...While I understand the
> concept of
> needing this for more difficult passages as he becomes more proficient, it
> seems strange that this would be a requisite for a beginner.
>
> Would welcome and appreciate any comments from the list, along with
> recommendations for an inexpensive (if possible), but dependable F
> Attachment
> starter horn.
>
> Finally, considering the expense of a new instrument, should they consider
> a rental for the first year or so to see how he progresses?
>
> Many thanks!
>
> George Eiche
> The Villages, FL
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Earl Needham <>
> To: Trombone-L List
> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 15:47:47 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] F Attachments for beginners?
> Should start with a straight horn so the F-attachment doesn't become a "6th
> position" button. Starting with an f-attachment will probably stunt the
> growth of slide technique.
>
> Earl
>
> KD5XB -- Earl Needham http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cw_bugs Quoting from
> the Coast Guard: ZUT Posted via Blackberry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: <>
> Sender: trombone-l-
> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 11:42:16
> To:
> Subject: [Trombone-l] F Attachments for beginners?
>
> Hi everyone...Just learned that my 12 yr old grandson is going into
> beginning band this fall...I encouraged this, letting him try my Bach 16 a
> few
> times while they were visiting us a few days back.
>
> Here is the kicker...His band teacher seems to be mandating an F
> attachment, and I know very little about them...While I understand the
> concept of
> needing this for more difficult passages as he becomes more proficient, it
> seems strange that this would be a requisite for a beginner.
>
> Would welcome and appreciate any comments from the list, along with
> recommendations for an inexpensive (if possible), but dependable F
> Attachment
> starter horn.
>
> Finally, considering the expense of a new instrument, should they consider
> a rental for the first year or so to see how he progresses?
>
> Many thanks!
>
> George Eiche
> The Villages, FL
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Trombone-l mailing list
> Trombone-
> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Dennis Clason <>
> To:
> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 10:06:41 -0600
> Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] F Attachments for beginners?
> What Earl said. Beginners don't need F-sides. They do need well-designed
> straight instruments in good repair. I'll bet almost all of us over age 45
> or so started on Conn Directors or Olds Ambassadors or Bundys. We seemed to
> come out okay.
>
> On 2011-06-15 9:47 AM, Earl Needham wrote:
>
>> Should start with a straight horn so the F-attachment doesn't become a
>> "6th position" button. Starting with an f-attachment will probably stunt
>> the growth of slide technique.
>>
>> Earl
>>
>> KD5XB -- Earl Needham http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cw_bugs Quoting from
>> the Coast Guard: ZUT Posted via Blackberry
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:<>
>> Sender: trombone-l-
>> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 11:42:16
>> To:
>> Subject: [Trombone-l] F Attachments for beginners?
>>
>> Hi everyone...Just learned that my 12 yr old grandson is going into
>> beginning band this fall...I encouraged this, letting him try my Bach 16 a
>> few
>> times while they were visiting us a few days back.
>>
>> Here is the kicker...His band teacher seems to be mandating an F
>> attachment, and I know very little about them...While I understand the
>> concept of
>> needing this for more difficult passages as he becomes more proficient,
>> it
>> seems strange that this would be a requisite for a beginner.
>>
>> Would welcome and appreciate any comments from the list, along with
>> recommendations for an inexpensive (if possible), but dependable F
>> Attachment
>> starter horn.
>>
>> Finally, considering the expense of a new instrument, should they consider
>> a rental for the first year or so to see how he progresses?
>>
>> Many thanks!
>>
>> George Eiche
>> The Villages, FL
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Trombone-l mailing list
>> Trombone-
>> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Trombone-l mailing list
>> Trombone-
>> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l
>>
>
>
> --
> --
> Dennis L. Clason
> Department of Economics, Applied Statistics and Int'l Business
> New Mexico State University
> Las Cruces, New Mexico
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: <>
> To: <>
> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 12:17:09 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] F Attachments for beginners?
> I agree that the F-attachment is going to be a distraction for beginners.
> However, with proper instruction it is not out of the question. If you
> can find an older King 3B (.508) or Bach 36 (.525) with the F-attachment,
> they are small enough as to be more manageable for youngsters and could
> easily last through high school.
>
> John
>
>
>
> From:
> <>
> To:
>
> Date:
> 06/15/2011 11:42 AM
> Subject:
> [Trombone-l] F Attachments for beginners?
> Sent by:
> trombone-l-
>
>
>
> Hi everyone...Just learned that my 12 yr old grandson is going into
> beginning band this fall...I encouraged this, letting him try my Bach 16 a
> few
> times while they were visiting us a few days back.
>
> Here is the kicker...His band teacher seems to be mandating an F
> attachment, and I know very little about them...While I understand the
> concept of
> needing this for more difficult passages as he becomes more proficient,
> it
> seems strange that this would be a requisite for a beginner.
>
> Would welcome and appreciate any comments from the list, along with
> recommendations for an inexpensive (if possible), but dependable F
> Attachment
> starter horn.
>
> Finally, considering the expense of a new instrument, should they consider
>
> a rental for the first year or so to see how he progresses?
>
> Many thanks!
>
> George Eiche
> The Villages, FL
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Trombone-l mailing list
> Trombone-
> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Charles DePaolo <>
> To:
> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 12:17:39 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] F Attachments for beginners?
> George,
>
> >From someone who deals with school music programs: Regardless of the
> wisdom of this list (which is considerable), the band director's wish
> trumps all. If he wants F attachments, he gets F attachments. We may
> try to dissuade them but ultimately their word is law. As to a good F
> trigger horn for a beginner - think about the King 607/608 sisters.
> These are 525 bore horns with excellent slides. There are lots of
> imported junk horns that cost much less, but they either have inferior
> slides, crappy intonation, weigh a ton, have poor valves, or all of the
> above. None of these "features" will help your kid succeed. Those Olds
> Ambassadors and Conn Directors from back in the day, though not perfect
> by any measure, were better IMO than most cheap junk available in eBay
> these days.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: trombone-l-
> [mailto:trombone-l-] On Behalf Of
> Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 11:42 AM
> To: trombone-
> Subject: [Trombone-l] F Attachments for beginners?
>
> Hi everyone...Just learned that my 12 yr old grandson is going into
> beginning band this fall...I encouraged this, letting him try my Bach 16
> a few times while they were visiting us a few days back.
>
> Here is the kicker...His band teacher seems to be mandating an F
> attachment, and I know very little about them...While I understand the
> concept of needing this for more difficult passages as he becomes more
> proficient, it seems strange that this would be a requisite for a
> beginner.
>
> Would welcome and appreciate any comments from the list, along with
> recommendations for an inexpensive (if possible), but dependable F
> Attachment starter horn.
>
> Finally, considering the expense of a new instrument, should they
> consider a rental for the first year or so to see how he progresses?
>
> Many thanks!
>
> George Eiche
> The Villages, FL
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Trombone-l mailing list
> Trombone-
> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Lawrence Franklin <>
> To: Dennis Clason <>,
> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 17:28:12 +0100
> Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] F Attachments for beginners?
> Sir Hi I have been playing tenor trom since I was 17yrs old I am now 81 and
> still a Pro Earl is right and I say BEWARE of the semi professional Jasper
> UK
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Clason" <>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 5:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] F Attachments for beginners?
>
>
> What Earl said. Beginners don't need F-sides. They do need
>> well-designed straight instruments in good repair. I'll bet almost all
>> of us over age 45 or so started on Conn Directors or Olds Ambassadors or
>> Bundys. We seemed to come out okay.
>>
>> On 2011-06-15 9:47 AM, Earl Needham wrote:
>>
>>> Should start with a straight horn so the F-attachment doesn't become a
>>> "6th position" button. Starting with an f-attachment will probably stunt
>>> the growth of slide technique.
>>>
>>> Earl
>>>
>>> KD5XB -- Earl Needham http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cw_bugs Quoting from
>>> the Coast Guard: ZUT Posted via Blackberry
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From:<>
>>> Sender: trombone-l-
>>> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 11:42:16
>>> To:
>>> Subject: [Trombone-l] F Attachments for beginners?
>>>
>>> Hi everyone...Just learned that my 12 yr old grandson is going into
>>> beginning band this fall...I encouraged this, letting him try my Bach 16
>>> a few
>>> times while they were visiting us a few days back.
>>>
>>> Here is the kicker...His band teacher seems to be mandating an F
>>> attachment, and I know very little about them...While I understand the
>>> concept of
>>> needing this for more difficult passages as he becomes more proficient,
>>> it
>>> seems strange that this would be a requisite for a beginner.
>>>
>>> Would welcome and appreciate any comments from the list, along with
>>> recommendations for an inexpensive (if possible), but dependable F
>>> Attachment
>>> starter horn.
>>>
>>> Finally, considering the expense of a new instrument, should they
>>> consider
>>> a rental for the first year or so to see how he progresses?
>>>
>>> Many thanks!
>>>
>>> George Eiche
>>> The Villages, FL
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Trombone-l mailing list
>>> Trombone-
>>> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Trombone-l mailing list
>>> Trombone-
>>> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> --
>> Dennis L. Clason
>> Department of Economics, Applied Statistics and Int'l Business
>> New Mexico State University
>> Las Cruces, New Mexico
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Trombone-l mailing list
>> Trombone-
>> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l
>>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Earl Needham <>
> To: Trombone-L List
> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 16:30:24 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] F Attachments for beginners?
> Chuck's right -- if it MUST have an F-attachment, then King instruments are
> about the toughest out there. The old "Cleveland" horns were great!
>
> Earl
>
> KD5XB -- Earl Needham http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cw_bugs Quoting from
> the Coast Guard: ZUT Posted via Blackberry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles DePaolo <>
> Sender: trombone-l-
> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 12:17:39
> To:
> Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] F Attachments for beginners?
>
> George,
>
> >From someone who deals with school music programs: Regardless of the
> wisdom of this list (which is considerable), the band director's wish
> trumps all. If he wants F attachments, he gets F attachments. We may
> try to dissuade them but ultimately their word is law. As to a good F
> trigger horn for a beginner - think about the King 607/608 sisters.
> These are 525 bore horns with excellent slides. There are lots of
> imported junk horns that cost much less, but they either have inferior
> slides, crappy intonation, weigh a ton, have poor valves, or all of the
> above. None of these "features" will help your kid succeed. Those Olds
> Ambassadors and Conn Directors from back in the day, though not perfect
> by any measure, were better IMO than most cheap junk available in eBay
> these days.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: trombone-l-
> [mailto:trombone-l-] On Behalf Of
> Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 11:42 AM
> To: trombone-
> Subject: [Trombone-l] F Attachments for beginners?
>
> Hi everyone...Just learned that my 12 yr old grandson is going into
> beginning band this fall...I encouraged this, letting him try my Bach 16
> a few times while they were visiting us a few days back.
>
> Here is the kicker...His band teacher seems to be mandating an F
> attachment, and I know very little about them...While I understand the
> concept of needing this for more difficult passages as he becomes more
> proficient, it seems strange that this would be a requisite for a
> beginner.
>
> Would welcome and appreciate any comments from the list, along with
> recommendations for an inexpensive (if possible), but dependable F
> Attachment starter horn.
>
> Finally, considering the expense of a new instrument, should they
> consider a rental for the first year or so to see how he progresses?
>
> Many thanks!
>
> George Eiche
> The Villages, FL
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Trombone-l mailing list
> Trombone-
> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Trombone-l mailing list
> Trombone-
> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Earl Needham <>
> To: Trombone-L List
> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 16:30:46 +0000
> Subject: [Trombone-l] Fw: F Attachments for beginners?
>
> KD5XB -- Earl Needham http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cw_bugs Quoting from
> the Coast Guard: ZUT Posted via Blackberry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alex Rodriguez <>
> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 11:50:31
> To: <>
> Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] F Attachments for beginners?
>
> agreed -- plus, it's just more tubing that can break!
>
> On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 11:47 AM, Earl Needham <>
> wrote:
> > Should start with a straight horn so the F-attachment doesn't become a
> "6th position" button. Starting with an f-attachment will probably stunt
> the growth of slide technique.
> >
> > Earl
> >
> > KD5XB -- Earl Needham http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cw_bugs Quoting from
> the Coast Guard: ZUT Posted via Blackberry
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: <>
> > Sender: trombone-l-
> > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 11:42:16
> > To:
> > Subject: [Trombone-l] F Attachments for beginners?
> >
> > Hi everyone...Just learned that my 12 yr old grandson is going into
> > beginning band this fall...I encouraged this, letting him try my Bach 16
> a few
> > times while they were visiting us a few days back.
> >
> > Here is the kicker...His band teacher seems to be mandating an F
> > attachment, and I know very little about them...While I understand the
> concept of
> > needing this for more difficult passages as he becomes more proficient,
> it
> > seems strange that this would be a requisite for a beginner.
> >
> > Would welcome and appreciate any comments from the list, along with
> > recommendations for an inexpensive (if possible), but dependable F
> Attachment
> > starter horn.
> >
> > Finally, considering the expense of a new instrument, should they
> consider
> > a rental for the first year or so to see how he progresses?
> >
> > Many thanks!
> >
> > George Eiche
> > The Villages, FL
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> > Trombone-l mailing list
> > Trombone-
> > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> > Trombone-l mailing list
> > Trombone-
> > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Alex W. Rodriguez
> MA Candidate in Ethnomusicology
> University of California, Los Angeles
> http://lubricity.wordpress.com
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Price Taylor <>
> To: <>
> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 09:52:42 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] F Attachments for beginners?
> The only smaller bore F-attachment I have ever played is the King 3B. The
> 3B on its own has resistance and the additional tubing adds weight and some
> stuffiness.
>
> I think .525 born is too big to start on but hey, what do I know?
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 8:47 AM, Earl Needham <>
> wrote:
>
> > Should start with a straight horn so the F-attachment doesn't become a
> "6th
> > position" button. Starting with an f-attachment will probably stunt the
> > growth of slide technique.
> >
> > Earl
> >
> > KD5XB -- Earl Needham http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cw_bugs Quoting from
> > the Coast Guard: ZUT Posted via Blackberry
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: <>
> > Sender: trombone-l-
> > Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 11:42:16
> > To:
> > Subject: [Trombone-l] F Attachments for beginners?
> >
> > Hi everyone...Just learned that my 12 yr old grandson is going into
> > beginning band this fall...I encouraged this, letting him try my Bach 16
> a
> > few
> > times while they were visiting us a few days back.
> >
> > Here is the kicker...His band teacher seems to be mandating an F
> > attachment, and I know very little about them...While I understand the
> > concept of
> > needing this for more difficult passages as he becomes more proficient,
> it
> > seems strange that this would be a requisite for a beginner.
> >
> > Would welcome and appreciate any comments from the list, along with
> > recommendations for an inexpensive (if possible), but dependable F
> > Attachment
> > starter horn.
> >
> > Finally, considering the expense of a new instrument, should they
> consider
> > a rental for the first year or so to see how he progresses?
> >
> > Many thanks!
> >
> > George Eiche
> > The Villages, FL
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Trombone-l mailing list
> > Trombone-
> > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Trombone-l mailing list
> > Trombone-
> > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Trombone-l mailing list
> Trombone-
> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l
>
>
_______________________________________________
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Trombone-
http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l
)
How does it sound?

KD5XB -- Earl Needham http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cw_bugs Quoting from the Coast Guard: ZUT Posted via Blackberry

-----Original Message-----
From: Laurence Payne <>
Sender: trombone-l-
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:29:04
To:
Reply-To:
Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] F Attachments for beginners?

How long, I wonder, before this becomes the universal starter trombone?
http://www.pbone.co.uk/

I've got one. It's far from being a joke instrument. The slide is a little
scratchy, but WAY better than the typical student model once it's picked up
a few bruises. It's virtually indestructible. And look at the price!

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_______________________________________________
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http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l
)

How does it sound?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

A bit dark. But hear for yourself!

http://youtu.be/HTmDiqllIRo

http://youtu.be/eDU9Hj_3eSY

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)

quite a few posts on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=pbone

quite a bit of comments about the pbone here:
http://www.themouthpiece.com/vb/showthread.php?t=43146
for ~$80.00US I think i'd pick one up to try it out once they have them in stock again.

One post I found particularly insightful.
quoting post:
==================
I am the proud owner of a pbone! Some observations;

1. It doesnt have the same sound as a traditionally built instrument, but it isnt a million miles away - it still sounds like a trombone!
2. The slide was a nightmare to 'fix'. The outer slide is made of carbon fibre, as is the inner stocking. The inner stocking has metal ends (this and the counterbalance weight are the only parts of the instrument that are metal as far as I can see) and the friction noise was unbearable at first. However after cleaning it 6 or 7 times with cleaning rods et al, it is now perfectly usable with the friction noise almost eliminated. (soap and water didnt clean it!). I don't know if the carbon fibre residue in the manufacturing process was the problem, but a lot of muck did come out the instrument.
3. It plays remarkably well, and is very well in tune through all registers.
4. It is an easy blow, and moving between the partials is astonishingly good.
5. It is very light - much lighter than the manufacturers claim. I think my standard VB metal mouthpiece is heavier than the fully assembled pbone!
6. My guess is that the bell section is almost indestructable, as it is a big chunk of 'plastic'. Not so sure about the carbon fibre slide, but I tried a few 'experimental drops' and my guess is it will cope with even the roughest treatment.
7. It came with a red plastic mouthpiece and a polybone gig bag.
8. It is a medium bore instrument and takes 'normal' mouthpieces as well as mutes.

In summary, I think it is a work of genius! I'm no teacher, but I think kids would love it because it has the features of a real instrument, but is really light in weight and looks really cool. For the money I think it is great value. I bought it with the intention of using it on the many Christmas caroling jobs on the horizon. Great for cold weather I hope!
==================

> From:
> To: ; trombone-
> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:49:03 +0100
> Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] F Attachments for beginners?
>
>
> How does it sound?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> A bit dark. But hear for yourself!
>
> http://youtu.be/HTmDiqllIRo
>
> http://youtu.be/eDU9Hj_3eSY
>
> _______________________________________________
> Trombone-l mailing list
> Trombone-
> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l

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)
George -

If your wallet will stand it, an f-attachment trombone is a great beginner's
horn. Consider the previously mentioned Kings and also a Conn 50H, if you
can find it. .525 is not too big for beginners, and 12 year olds can handle
the weight. It is better, as others have mentioned, for them to be able to
play and hear the 6th position C IN TUNE so that they are not constantly
sharp. This will happen if tey can play it in 1st with the valve. If they
always play the note sharp, they will begin to hear that as correct. The f
attachment will cure that.

I wouldn't get too enthusiastic about getting a great horn like the Bach 36,
or anything similar, as a first horn. Young kids can be unbelievably tough
on a horn. Not intentionally, but damage to a great horn like a 36 is
harder to take than on an intermediate alternative w/f attachment. If there
is interest, a better horn can be had at a later date. The advantages of an
f outweigh the added cost IMO.

Bob Kalwas

----- Original Message -----
From: <>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 11:42 AM
Subject: [Trombone-l] F Attachments for beginners?

> Hi everyone...Just learned that my 12 yr old grandson is going into
> beginning band this fall...I encouraged this, letting him try my Bach 16 a
> few
> times while they were visiting us a few days back.
>
> Here is the kicker...His band teacher seems to be mandating an F
> attachment, and I know very little about them...While I understand the
> concept of
> needing this for more difficult passages as he becomes more proficient,
> it
> seems strange that this would be a requisite for a beginner.
>
> Would welcome and appreciate any comments from the list, along with
> recommendations for an inexpensive (if possible), but dependable F
> Attachment
> starter horn.
>
> Finally, considering the expense of a new instrument, should they consider
> a rental for the first year or so to see how he progresses?
>
> Many thanks!
>
> George Eiche
> The Villages, FL
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Trombone-l mailing list
> Trombone-
> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l
>

_______________________________________________
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Trombone-
http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l
)
On 2011-06-15 10:52 AM, Price Taylor wrote:
> The only smaller bore F-attachment I have ever played is the King 3B. The
> 3B on its own has resistance and the additional tubing adds weight and some
> stuffiness.
>
> I think .525 born is too big to start on but hey, what do I know?
>
Tuba players start on much larger bores/mouthpieces, and they seem to do
okay.

--
--
Dennis L. Clason
Department of Economics, Applied Statistics and Int'l Business
New Mexico State University
Las Cruces, New Mexico

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)
At 01:35 PM 6/15/2011, Jay Sheridan wrote:

>Instead of the thought that it will become a "6th position button,"
>think of it as an easier throw for an 11 year old that can't reach
>6th well. As most beginning books (Standard of Excellence, Essential
>Elements, etc) begin with Bb, C, D, students get discouraged from
>trombone due to either having too short of arms or just having to
>work more. Plus, if a Bach 36 (or insert your instrument) will
>easily get them through high school, then why not go ahead and start
>on that horn? Why go back later, ask them to buy another horn, and
>then figure out this odd thing at their thumb? If the band director
>wants to start, then he most likely has a plan as to how to teach
>with the attachment. Most non-trombone teachers (beginning band)
>teachers are clueless as to proper uses of the F valve anyways. If
>he can teach it right, and from the beginning when the kids do not
>know that there is a weight difference, then let him teach it. I
>would love to be able to require F attachements, but we can't do that here.

I'm with Jay on this one, and think the F attachment should be
requried. I started trombone at 8 yers old and could barely reach
5th position. Playing "close enough" C in 6th wrecked my intonation for years.

Learning to use the F attachment CORRECTLY from the beginning also
reduces the possibility of, when the student eventually gets one
later, only using it for playing C and B-natural at the short end of
the slide. I meet very, very few (tenor) trombonists who actually
know how to use the thing. You can play B-flat in third???

Steve Troy
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)

From out of the past... Pan American....Straight tenor... must have been about .45 bore. Used it until 1990. Bought it in 1947. Never needed and F attachment.

Now using a Conn Director and it is less quality than the Pan Am, but unless you are playing the Blue Note... why do you need the F attachment. Used the Pan Am for six years on road and TV and Radio.

beldon wade
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis Clason" <>
To: trombone-
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 12:06:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] F Attachments for beginners?

What Earl said. Beginners don't need F-sides. They do need
well-designed straight instruments in good repair. I'll bet almost all
of us over age 45 or so started on Conn Directors or Olds Ambassadors or
Bundys. We seemed to come out okay.

On 2011-06-15 9:47 AM, Earl Needham wrote:
> Should start with a straight horn so the F-attachment doesn't become a "6th position" button. Starting with an f-attachment will probably stunt the growth of slide technique.
>
> Earl
>
> KD5XB -- Earl Needham http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cw_bugs Quoting from the Coast Guard: ZUT Posted via Blackberry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:<>
> Sender: trombone-l-
> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 11:42:16
> To:
> Subject: [Trombone-l] F Attachments for beginners?
>
> Hi everyone...Just learned that my 12 yr old grandson is going into
> beginning band this fall...I encouraged this, letting him try my Bach 16 a few
> times while they were visiting us a few days back.
>
> Here is the kicker...His band teacher seems to be mandating an F
> attachment, and I know very little about them...While I understand the concept of
> needing this for more difficult passages as he becomes more proficient, it
> seems strange that this would be a requisite for a beginner.
>
> Would welcome and appreciate any comments from the list, along with
> recommendations for an inexpensive (if possible), but dependable F Attachment
> starter horn.
>
> Finally, considering the expense of a new instrument, should they consider
> a rental for the first year or so to see how he progresses?
>
> Many thanks!
>
> George Eiche
> The Villages, FL
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Trombone-l mailing list
> Trombone-
> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> Trombone-l mailing list
> Trombone-
> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l

--
--
Dennis L. Clason
Department of Economics, Applied Statistics and Int'l Business
New Mexico State University
Las Cruces, New Mexico

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