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The programming team have come across and anomaly with the testers...

So We would like those with the best memories to cast their minds back
(to any relevent documentation)

How long do German fortification take to build and become operational?

Now According to Greg in CWIE-1...

** German fortifications can be placed in any hex in continental Europe
(except for in Scandinavia) that is in Major Supply and not in an enemy Zone of
Control. German fortifications do not become active until two cycles after they
are placed. A D1 or D2 in parentheses following the unit description indicates
how many more cycles the fortification has until it is ready. If a
fortification is placed on a West Wall hex, the fortification replaces the
West Wall and becomes active immediately.**

But according to BWIE
[16.52] Placement of Fortification Markers: After a Fortification Marker
is removed from the German Production Spiral; it must immediately be
deployed, facedown, in any Friendly supplied hex. This hex must be
within the Supply Range of a German Supply Center or an operative Rail
hex Supplyhead with an unbroken line of Friendly Rail hexes leading back
to a German Supply Center (the Line of Supply for the hex of placement
may not be traced from Mobile Supply units or Port hexes). At the
beginning of the Strategic Cycle following the Cycle in which the
Fortification unit was deployed, the unit is turned face-up. While
deployed facedown on the map, the Fortification Marker has no effect on
the play of the game but is destroyed if an Enemy unit physically
occupies the hex containing the Fortification Marker."

This caught Jerry and myself completely by surprise..we are gaming it at
the moment...

It could be that Greg's version has ingrained itself deeply into the
psyche....

But it does look, on the face of it, as though Greg made a significant
shift....

Greg was never known for such 'departures' as a general rule, and had
that been such a case, I do not remember anyone particularly having
words over it on the list at the time.

Qn is....

Was my recollection wrong (quite possibly) or was there a real basis for
Greg's shift of interpretation that I am missing?

It would be very useful if others can shed some illumination on this...

-|steve|- War in the West [30.52] is the same as BWiE.
----- Original Message -----
From: sgminfo
To: Computer War In Europe
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 1:17 PM
Subject: [WarInEur] German fortifications

The programming team have come across and anomaly with the testers...

So We would like those with the best memories to cast their minds back (to any relevent documentation)

How long do German fortification take to build and become operational?

Now According to Greg in CWIE-1...

German fortifications can be placed in any hex in continental Europe
(except for in Scandinavia) that is in Major Supply and not in an enemy Zone of
Control. German fortifications do not become active until two cycles after they
are placed. A D1 or D2 in parentheses following the unit description indicates
how many more cycles the fortification has until it is ready. If a
fortification is placed on a West Wall hex, the fortification replaces the
West Wall and becomes active immediately.But according to BWIE
[16.52] Placement of Fortification Markers: After a Fortification Marker is removed from the German Production Spiral; it must immediately be deployed, facedown, in any Friendly supplied hex. This hex must be within the Supply Range of a German Supply Center or an operative Rail hex Supplyhead with an unbroken line of Friendly Rail hexes leading back to a German Supply Center (the Line of Supply for the hex of placement may not be traced from Mobile Supply units or Port hexes). At the beginning of the Strategic Cycle following the Cycle in which the Fortification unit was deployed, the unit is turned face-up. While deployed facedown on the map, the Fortification Marker has no effect on the play of the game but is destroyed if an Enemy unit physically occupies the hex containing the Fortification Marker."

This caught Jerry and myself completely by surprise..we are gaming it at the moment...

It could be that Greg's version has ingrained itself deeply into the psyche....

But it does look, on the face of it, as though Greg made a significant shift....

Greg was never known for such 'departures' as a general rule, and had that been such a case, I do not remember anyone particularly having words over it on the list at the time.

Qn is....

Was my recollection wrong (quite possibly) or was there a real basis for Greg's shift of interpretation that I am missing?

It would be very useful if others can shed some illumination on this...

-|steve|-

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________

Posted on the WarInEur mailing list. Go to http://mailman.halisp.net/mailman/listinfo/warineur to subscribe. >The programming team have come across and anomaly with the testers...
>
>So We would like those with the best memories to cast their minds back
>(to any relevent documentation)
>
>How long do German fortification take to build and become operational?
>
>Now According to Greg in CWIE-1...
>
>** German fortifications can be placed in any hex in continental Europe
>(except for in Scandinavia) that is in Major Supply and not in an enemy Zone of
>Control. German fortifications do not become active until two cycles after they
>are placed. A D1 or D2 in parentheses following the unit description indicates
>how many more cycles the fortification has until it is ready. If a
>fortification is placed on a West Wall hex, the fortification replaces the
>West Wall and becomes active immediately.**
>
>But according to BWIE
>[16.52]

Which BWIE? BWIE-1 doesn't have a case 16.52.

I can only suggest this, but would it not make sense to always use
"BWIE-1" and "BWIE-2" to make it clear which game you are discussing?

In terms of, as it were, historical authority in the WiE tradition,
the order of priority (higher on the list, greater in authority) would
be:

BWIE-1
CWIE-1
BWIE-2
CWIE-2

So, if the problem is a discrepancy between CWIE-1 and BWIE-2, then
CWIE-1 is more authoritative. IMHO, of course.

If the question was "which makes more sense" or "which is more
coherent" or "which works better", well, that might be a different
story, especially since it is much easier to write rules that are
vague, ambiguous, or missing for a board game than it is to program
such rules in a computer game. As you yourself have, IIRC, noted, one
of the advantages of a computer game is that the game enforces the
rules so that rules disputes are greatly reduced.

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the WarInEur mailing list. Go to http://mailman.halisp.net/mailman/listinfo/warineur to subscribe. First.....in the Board game:

There were no restrictions on the number of the counters
Specificly you COULD put a fort in Messina, and that was critical because
the RR runs there.
You could also put one in Constantinoble

It took time to place the forts except for the west wall

Always there was an understanding that if the German enemies managed to take
the hex in time.....no fort.
Critical for places like Leningrad and Kiev
and Rostov and Sevastopol

The Kansas City people nerfed the forts because the player who played the
Soviets didnt like seeing forts in the USSR
That is the ONLY reason it was changed

So of course I for one ignore that change.

On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 12:04 PM, Paul S. Person <>wrote:

> On Thu, 13 May 2010 17:17:17 +0000, sgminfo <> wrote:
>
> >The programming team have come across and anomaly with the testers...
> >
> >So We would like those with the best memories to cast their minds back
> >(to any relevent documentation)
> >
> >How long do German fortification take to build and become operational?
> >
> >Now According to Greg in CWIE-1...
> >
> >** German fortifications can be placed in any hex in continental Europe
> >(except for in Scandinavia) that is in Major Supply and not in an enemy
> Zone of
> >Control. German fortifications do not become active until two cycles
> after they
> >are placed. A D1 or D2 in parentheses following the unit description
> indicates
> >how many more cycles the fortification has until it is ready. If a
> >fortification is placed on a West Wall hex, the fortification replaces the
> >West Wall and becomes active immediately.**
> >
> >But according to BWIE
> >[16.52]
>
>
>
> Which BWIE? BWIE-1 doesn't have a case 16.52.
>
> I can only suggest this, but would it not make sense to always use
> "BWIE-1" and "BWIE-2" to make it clear which game you are discussing?
>
> In terms of, as it were, historical authority in the WiE tradition,
> the order of priority (higher on the list, greater in authority) would
> be:
>
> BWIE-1
> CWIE-1
> BWIE-2
> CWIE-2
>
> So, if the problem is a discrepancy between CWIE-1 and BWIE-2, then
> CWIE-1 is more authoritative. IMHO, of course.
>
> If the question was "which makes more sense" or "which is more
> coherent" or "which works better", well, that might be a different
> story, especially since it is much easier to write rules that are
> vague, ambiguous, or missing for a board game than it is to program
> such rules in a computer game. As you yourself have, IIRC, noted, one
> of the advantages of a computer game is that the game enforces the
> rules so that rules disputes are greatly reduced.
>
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the WarInEur mailing list. Go to http://mailman.halisp.net/mailman/listinfo/warineur to subscribe. The time required to make a fortification is dependent on where it is placed. If it is going to be placed to any hexes besides a West Wall hex it requires 4 production cycles and then four turns to become operational. (Remove from production cycle and place face down on map. Wait four turns and then flip face up during next production cycle. It is then operational on the fifth turn after deployment).

When placed in a West Wall hex, the four cycle production time is down away with and the fort is immediately deployed face down on the map.)

Greg's rule for WiE-dos quoted below is in disagreement with the BWIE rules in two areas.

"German fortifications can be placed in any hex in continental Europe (except for in Scandinavia) that is in Major Supply and not in an enemy Zone of Control. German fortifications do not become active until two cycles after they are placed. A D1 or D2 in parentheses following the unit description indicates
how many more cycles the fortification has until it is ready. If a fortification is placed on a West Wall hex, the fortification replaces the West Wall and becomes active immediately."

First, a fortification in a non-West Wall hex does not take two cycles to deploy. It is flipped face up during the second cycle not the third so only four map turns are required.

Second, a fortification placed West Wall hex skips the four production cycles but does not skip the four map turns.

While Mike (aka Henry) wants to blame the KC/LA errata groups for changing the fortification markers from "markers" to "counters" for the purpose of determining counter limits. He is in error. I have written documentation from SPI that I sent in to them when War in the West was issued but before the War in Europe box set was released combining WitE and WitW. They specifically wrote back that the 36 counters were all the fortification the Axis was allowed to build.

(Do the math. One fortification and one 6-5 has a defense strength of 18 but only costs 9 production points. Three 6-5's with a defense strength of 18 would cost 18 production points. So basically SPI had to reduce the number of possible fortifications or see the Germans building one 6-5, one fort and three IRP for the same production costs and building elaborate defenses which would make the war into a simple WWI slug fest). Stepping aside from what the BWIE rules say...
And looking at the effects on gameplay... i.e the wider issues...

I have always been happy with the construction times underCWIE-1...

When you've come face to face with the type of construction that you see
on the Atlantik wall 2 cycles is a very reasonable time span for such a
construction project to bear fruition....if the fortification markers
are to be accepted as representational of the type.

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/gaz/bt.html

Shrinking the timespan inside the cycle loop takes them from the
strategic, into the tactical area of fortification work.

IF they are of a tactical nature...then they overlap and encroach upon
the all inclusive nature og the 6-5, which was taken as being an all
round combat ability unit including in its strength the generation of
field works and tactical fortification.

If the fortification marker/counter/unit is brought within this
tactical/operational remit, many of the considerations of the Eastern
front may be compromised.

It is a feature of many narratives of the eastern front in 43-44 that
Axis formations repeatedly failed to prepare fortifications in a timely
manner to bolster their defences, positions being lost and lines
compromised before such positions could be completed and turned to
useful military value.

In Italy, similar considerations arise, whereby german units defended
further forward in order to 'buy time' for lines of defences to come to
fruition before they could pull back and avail themselves of them.

When you consider resources and technology, settingyourself the task of
completing the work of surveying, laying out, excavating , and
completing such works...which involve the pouring and curing of large
volumes of concrete, 4 weeks looks a daunting timespan for anyone to manage.

From a design point of view...

Looking at concrete and fortifications...the discontinuity isn't just
the timespan...its the capability and capacity of the industry to create
and deploy such volumes of concrete...

I might venture that a better simulation of the realities might be
achieved by placing a limit on the capacity to deploy fortifications
representing that sort of level of military constructional effort...

For example, a cap limit on deployment of between 1 and two
fortification markers per cycle.

We could accept the quicker constructional rate, if the device of
capping neatly prevented the temptations of the 'ostwall' situation...

Indeed the limitations of such fortifications in terms of counter levels
etc might become superfluous in such circumstances when the deployment
of major fortifications was of such a nature as to preclude massive and
timely intervention on the operational battlefield.

Abother 'device' that might provide similar useful restrictions perhaps
is to forbid the placement of such fortifications in any hex other than
one in major supply, or in mud, or winter in severe weather areas
(excepting westwall conversions).

All in all a deployment or build cap of 2 x fortification counters per
cycle might address nicely such concerns.

Rommel's energy in 43-44 on the Atlantic defences can be seen also in
the ingenuity of the steps he took to circumvent the bottlenecks of the
big prestige projects in the Atlantic wall, hence the alternative
methods of fortification with iron and steel in the beach defences to
transcend possible limitations in construction projects...

-|steve|-

Kent & Sue Haunschild wrote:
> The time required to make a fortification is dependent on where it is
> placed. If it is going to be placed to any hexes besides a West Wall
> hex it requires 4 production cycles and then four turns to become
> operational. (Remove from production cycle and place face down on map.
> Wait four turns and then flip face up during next production cycle. It
> is then operational on the fifth turn after deployment).
>
> When placed in a West Wall hex, the four cycle production time is down
> away with and the fort is immediately deployed face down on the map.)
>
> Greg's rule for WiE-dos quoted below is in disagreement with the BWIE
> rules in two areas.
>
> "German fortifications can be placed in any hex in continental Europe
> (except for in Scandinavia) that is in Major Supply and not in an
> enemy Zone of Control. German fortifications do not become active
> until two cycles after they are placed. A D1 or D2 in parentheses
> following the unit description indicates
> how many more cycles the fortification has until it is ready. If a
> fortification is placed on a West Wall hex, the fortification replaces
> the West Wall and becomes active immediately."
>
> First, a fortification in a non-West Wall hex does not take two cycles
> to deploy. It is flipped face up during the second cycle not the
> third so only four map turns are required.
>
> Second, a fortification placed West Wall hex skips the four production
> cycles but does not skip the four map turns.
>
> While Mike (aka Henry) wants to blame the KC/LA errata groups for
> changing the fortification markers from "markers" to "counters" for
> the purpose of determining counter limits. He is in error. I have
> written documentation from SPI that I sent in to them when War in the
> West was issued but before the War in Europe box set was released
> combining WitE and WitW. They specifically wrote back that the 36
> counters were all the fortification the Axis was allowed to build.
>
> (Do the math. One fortification and one 6-5 has a defense strength of
> 18 but only costs 9 production points. Three 6-5's with a defense
> strength of 18 would cost 18 production points. So basically SPI had
> to reduce the number of possible fortifications or see the Germans
> building one 6-5, one fort and three IRP for the same production costs
> and building elaborate defenses which would make the war into a simple
> WWI slug fest).
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________

Posted on the WarInEur mailing list. Go to http://mailman.halisp.net/mailman/listinfo/warineur to subscribe. Oddly enough I too contacted SPI on that issue among several others such as
is there a limit to the number of IR you can crank out(only limited number
of centers and all)
I got a different answer than Kent did. I guess it depends on who you talked
to. In any case. I ignore the limits, because they dont make sense.
Logic dictates that you MUST build a fort in each Atlantic port or see the
Allies capture it easily. After all that fort building and the West
Wall.....you will have I think like 4 counters left
for the Ost Front. That is absurd.

On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 12:00 AM, Kent & Sue Haunschild <>wrote:

> The time required to make a fortification is dependent on where it is
> placed. If it is going to be placed to any hexes besides a West Wall hex it
> requires 4 production cycles and then four turns to become operational.
> (Remove from production cycle and place face down on map. Wait four turns
> and then flip face up during next production cycle. It is then operational
> on the fifth turn after deployment).
>
> When placed in a West Wall hex, the four cycle production time is down away
> with and the fort is immediately deployed face down on the map.)
>
> Greg's rule for WiE-dos quoted below is in disagreement with the BWIE rules
> in two areas.
>
> "German fortifications can be placed in any hex in continental Europe
> (except for in Scandinavia) that is in Major Supply and not in an enemy Zone
> of Control. German fortifications do not become active until two cycles
> after they are placed. A D1 or D2 in parentheses following the unit
> description indicates
> how many more cycles the fortification has until it is ready. If a
> fortification is placed on a West Wall hex, the fortification replaces the
> West Wall and becomes active immediately."
>
> First, a fortification in a non-West Wall hex does not take two cycles to
> deploy. It is flipped face up during the second cycle not the third so only
> four map turns are required.
>
> Second, a fortification placed West Wall hex skips the four production
> cycles but does not skip the four map turns.
>
> While Mike (aka Henry) wants to blame the KC/LA errata groups for
> changing the fortification markers from "markers" to "counters" for the
> purpose of determining counter limits. He is in error. I have written
> documentation from SPI that I sent in to them when War in the West was
> issued but before the War in Europe box set was released combining WitE and
> WitW. They specifically wrote back that the 36 counters were all the
> fortification the Axis was allowed to build.
>
> (Do the math. One fortification and one 6-5 has a defense strength of 18
> but only costs 9 production points. Three 6-5's with a defense strength of
> 18 would cost 18 production points. So basically SPI had to reduce the
> number of possible fortifications or see the Germans building one 6-5, one
> fort and three IRP for the same production costs and building elaborate
> defenses which would make the war into a simple WWI slug fest).
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the WarInEur mailing list. Go to http://mailman.halisp.net/mailman/listinfo/warineur to subscribe. Kent & Sue Haunschild wrote:
> One of the perceived problems with German fortifications is that they
> can be built too quickly. (Subject of Steve's previous post). This
> view overlooks the production time required to prepare the
> fortification for deployment. When this time is factored in you are
> looking at five cycles before the Fort is ready for combat.
>
> The real problem (In my opinion) is that the Axis player can avoid
> committing where the fort is going to be placed for the first four cycles.
>

Yes indeed...the 'problem' is somewhat reminiscent of the Cab-rank
system with airborne forces...
Significant lead times,
but tactically insufficient deployment times...

I.E. The strategic nature of the instrument becomes the epitome of the
tactical exploit, a kind of flying artillery to force the outcome of a
tactically defined assault.

Which is where the problem can tend to surface...and is where the
placement of buttresses on the eastern front start to influence the
mobile front line... One of the perceived problems with German fortifications is that they can be built too quickly. (Subject of Steve's previous post). This view overlooks the production time required to prepare the fortification for deployment. When this time is factored in you are looking at five cycles before the Fort is ready for combat.

The real problem (In my opinion) is that the Axis player can avoid committing where the fort is going to be placed for the first four cycles.

A possible way to ease the programming load in reguard to West Wall vs non-West Wall hex deployment is to change the way we view the fortification. Instead of the current four cycles in production followed by four turns on the map or just four turns on the map in the case of a West Wall hex, how about we make all fortifications available for immediate deployment with a D5 rating to indicate that it will be five cycles before the fortification is operational. Fortifications placed in a West Wall hex would have D4 subtracted upon placement.

This would unify the code for both types of placement hexes while at the same time answering critisims that the forts become operational too quickly once placed on the map. I've always considered the quick fortifications in the West Wall hexes to be somewhat of a design kludge. The German home army is missing from the game and to a certain extent the West Wall/Fortifications markers represent a stiffening of resistance as the Allies approach Germany rather than any specific constructions.

Also many of the Atlantic Wall artillery considered of captured Polish, French, Belgian, Dutch, Yugoslavian, Russian artillery etc. (asically, anything that was functional but was not worth using in the field army due to low numbers of tubes or ammunition). However, so long as they had a functional weapon and two or three units of fire (basically the duration of the invasion assault phase) it was emplaced. The sole function of the Atlantic Wall was to delay the invasion long enough for the reserve forces to move to the area and counterattack. It was never anticipated that the Atlantic Wall would have sufficient defenses to stop an invasion.

----- Original Message -----
From: sgminfo
Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2010 12:42 PM
Subject: Re: [WarInEur] German fortifications

Actually...whilst looking at this through these paragraphs ,
it has also set me to wondering...

Yes the Westwall supplied a lot of artillery for the Atlantik Wall ...

No concrete, no armour plate etc...

But we now have a gutted westwall...

'44 and the breaching of the Atlantik wall...

What are we going to do about the Westwall (now gutted?)

We start frantically refurbishing it...
..or do we???
...and with what exactly.

The artillery for it is gone (captured/overrun/destroyed on the Coast)

The artillery we are manufacturing now is very different in capabilities to the stuff of 1936-38)
The art of defensive architecture has improved out of all recognition...

Our fire control systems are now more sophisticated, ranges have opened out, and the standard designs are radically improved stemming from the design and build of the Atlantik Wall...artillery interlocking fields are larger and at greater ranges etc etc.

Simply refitting the westwall is not the doable task we are being told we are looking at in the game...

A turret for Skoda field piece of 1934-36 isn't going to be a suitable mount for a 'current' , 'modern piece of 1943-44 design. The bunkers will have to be substantially altered, and the mounts completely remanufactured. Much of the westwall would need to be resurveyed to be refitted with current technology to enable a functional defensive network.

About the only parts that are directly reusable are the basic infantry resistance nest and the accommodation bunkers. Even the armoured cupolas are no longer up to the modern hollow charge, and capped ballistic shot.

Tactical sitings are also out of date and effect when faced by the more refined techniques and equipment of 1944, honed for the breaching of the Atlantik wall.

So I might also question the realities of the kludge that turns a +2 fortification into something that amounts to the x3 standard German fortification...in a matter of days and weeks.

The reality might be closer to a +3 or a +4 defensive work...

Just some additional thoughts...

-|steve|-

I have buried someplace the original rules and could look them up, but I have some other thoughts on this. If I remember correctly in the real campaign, the German border fortifications were striped to help build the West Wall. My suggestion is to allow a faster build at the expense of a hex in the border fortification and a slower and more expensive build if there is no stripping.

The programming team have come across and anomaly with the testers...

So We would like those with the best memories to cast their minds back (to any relevent documentation)

How long do German fortification take to build and become operational?

Now According to Greg in CWIE-1...

German fortifications can be placed in any hex in continental Europe
(except for in Scandinavia) that is in Major Supply and not in an enemy Zone of
Control. German fortifications do not become active until two cycles after they
are placed. A D1 or D2 in parentheses following the unit description indicates
how many more cycles the fortification has until it is ready. If a
fortification is placed on a West Wall hex, the fortification replaces the
West Wall and becomes active immediately.But according to BWIE
[16.52] Placement of Fortification Markers: After a Fortification Marker is removed from the German Production Spiral; it must immediately be deployed, facedown, in any Friendly supplied hex. This hex must be within the Supply Range of a German Supply Center or an operative Rail hex Supplyhead with an unbroken line of Friendly Rail hexes leading back to a German Supply Center (the Line of Supply for the hex of placement may not be traced from Mobile Supply units or Port hexes). At the beginning of the Strategic Cycle following the Cycle in which the Fortification unit was deployed, the unit is turned face-up. While deployed facedown on the map, the Fortification Marker has no effect on the play of the game but is destroyed if an Enemy unit physically occupies the hex containing the Fortification Marker."

This caught Jerry and myself completely by surprise..we are gaming it at the moment...

It could be that Greg's version has ingrained itself deeply into the psyche....

But it does look, on the face of it, as though Greg made a significant shift....

Greg was never known for such 'departures' as a general rule, and had that been such a case, I do not remember anyone particularly having words over it on the list at the time.

Qn is....

Was my recollection wrong (quite possibly) or was there a real basis for Greg's shift of interpretation that I am missing?

It would be very useful if others can shed some illumination on this...

-|steve|-

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the WarInEur mailing list. Go to http://mailman.halisp.net/mailman/listinfo/warineur to subscribe. An interesting series of comments are scattered through the text of the
difficulties that the Germans had in maintaining construction rates due
to the limitations of manpower and materials...indeed that the bombing
interfered intentionally with the rate of contruction , with denial of
supplies at the rates demanded by the construction project.

http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/rommel_atl_wall.htm

Also of interest is the date upon which construction was ordered to be
initiated, and the resulting time it took to create and firm up the
defenses.

-|steve|-

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the WarInEur mailing list. Go to http://mailman.halisp.net/mailman/listinfo/warineur to subscribe. John Pace wrote:
> I can image there would be a delay. If nothing else, time to mix,
> pore and dry the concrete.
>

I was surprised when I learned how much time it takes for concrete to
achieve its designed strength...

The skills come in the shuttering,
producing the wooden mould/framework which dictates the final shape of
the poured concrete.

and the pour...

an art in itself...continuous to avoid joints and weaknesses...

Then maintaining the correct moisture content and temperatures during
the curing, to ensure a consistent strength...

the Hoover dam probably provides the best known example of dealing with
a concrete pour on a large structure....

The thicknesses of concrete used in the Atlantik wall approach the
complexities that were met in that dam, making it a good study...

The modern equivalent constructional issues are well illustrated in the
laying of a concrete runway for large commercial jets.

The time required to enable a naturally curing pour to achieve full
strength illustrate these problems nicely...

Indeed, temperature limitations for concrete handling raise an obvious
question...

Should forts be placable during winter in severe areas???

Getting concrete to location in quantity and continuously also raises
the question of whether it should be permitted to place forts in mud

-|steve|- One small matter to consider would be limited intel as to defenses, wouldn't the initial placement delay really equate to the delay the allies had figuring out this work was being done as opposed to actual production?

________________________________
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Posted on the WarInEur mailing list. Go to http://mailman.halisp.net/mailman/listinfo/warineur to subscribe. I can image there would be a delay. If nothing else, time to mix, pore and dry the concrete.
John

Subject: RE: [WarInEur] German fortifications
Received: Monday, May 17, 2010, 11:14 AM

One small matter to consider would be limited intel as to defenses, wouldn’t the initial placement delay really equate to the delay the allies had figuring out this work was being done as opposed to actual production?

Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2010 5:38 PM
Subject: Re: [WarInEur] German fortifications

One of the perceived problems with German fortifications is that they can be built too quickly. (Subject of Steve's previous post). This view overlooks the production time required to prepare the fortification for deployment. When this time is factored in you are looking at five cycles before the Fort is ready for combat.

The real problem (In my opinion) is that the Axis player can avoid committing where the fort is going to be placed for the first four cycles.

A possible way to ease the programming load in reguard to West Wall vs non-West Wall hex deployment is to change the way we view the fortification. Instead of the current four cycles in production followed by four turns on the map or just four turns on the map in the case of a West Wall hex, how about we make all fortifications available for immediate deployment with a D5 rating to indicate that it will be five cycles before the fortification is operational. Fortifications placed in a West Wall hex would have D4 subtracted upon placement.

This would unify the code for both types of placement hexes while at the same time answering critisims that the forts become operational too quickly once placed on the map.

Absolutely correct.
The Hoover dam won't be fully cured for another 400 years, and required
a network of water tubes to remove the excess heat created during curing
so that the concrete itself wouldn't crack.

On 5/17/2010 8:36 AM, sgminfo wrote:
> John Pace wrote:
>> I can image there would be a delay. If nothing else, time to mix,
>> pore and dry the concrete.
>>
>
> I was surprised when I learned how much time it takes for concrete to
> achieve its designed strength...
>
> The skills come in the shuttering,
> producing the wooden mould/framework which dictates the final shape of
> the poured concrete.
>
> and the pour...
>
> an art in itself...continuous to avoid joints and weaknesses...
>
>
> Then maintaining the correct moisture content and temperatures during
> the curing, to ensure a consistent strength...
>
>
> the Hoover dam probably provides the best known example of dealing
> with a concrete pour on a large structure....
>
> The thicknesses of concrete used in the Atlantik wall approach the
> complexities that were met in that dam, making it a good study...
>
>
> The modern equivalent constructional issues are well illustrated in
> the laying of a concrete runway for large commercial jets.
>
> The time required to enable a naturally curing pour to achieve full
> strength illustrate these problems nicely...
>
>
> Indeed, temperature limitations for concrete handling raise an obvious
> question...
>
> Should forts be placable during winter in severe areas???
>
> Getting concrete to location in quantity and continuously also raises
> the question of whether it should be permitted to place forts in mud
>
>
> -|steve|-
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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