This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)

This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
>> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed Marvel Mystery
Oil,
micron filter size, or twin vs. single engine ad nauseum, thus allowing us to
do it all over again.

-- Jim
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)

This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
>> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed Marvel Mystery
Oil,
micron filter size, or twin vs. single engine ad nauseum, thus allowing us to
do it all over again.

-- Jim
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
I'd like the forum format too. Here's the one Georgs established two
years ago. Hasn't had a lot of traffic lately, unfortunately.

http://trawlercrawler.net/

Richard Cook
New Moon (Bounty 257)



On 4/27/2011 1:39 PM, Peter Hayden wrote:
> This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
> only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
> for a number of reasons. They are:
>
> 1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
> 2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
> 3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
> email only.
>
> The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
> set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
> they so choose.
>
> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)

This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
>> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed Marvel Mystery
Oil,
micron filter size, or twin vs. single engine ad nauseum, thus allowing us to
do it all over again.

-- Jim
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
I'd like the forum format too. Here's the one Georgs established two
years ago. Hasn't had a lot of traffic lately, unfortunately.

http://trawlercrawler.net/

Richard Cook
New Moon (Bounty 257)



On 4/27/2011 1:39 PM, Peter Hayden wrote:
> This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
> only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
> for a number of reasons. They are:
>
> 1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
> 2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
> 3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
> email only.
>
> The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
> set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
> they so choose.
>
> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
Viaduct, vi not a chicken???

-----Original Message-----
From: trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+al=
[mailto:trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+al=] On
Behalf Of Peter Hayden
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 15:40
To: trawlers-and- List
Subject: T&T: Why a list and not a forum?

This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email
address, etc) go to:
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World Productions.
Unauthorized use is prohibited.
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)

This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
>> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed Marvel Mystery
Oil,
micron filter size, or twin vs. single engine ad nauseum, thus allowing us to
do it all over again.

-- Jim
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
I'd like the forum format too. Here's the one Georgs established two
years ago. Hasn't had a lot of traffic lately, unfortunately.

http://trawlercrawler.net/

Richard Cook
New Moon (Bounty 257)



On 4/27/2011 1:39 PM, Peter Hayden wrote:
> This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
> only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
> for a number of reasons. They are:
>
> 1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
> 2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
> 3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
> email only.
>
> The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
> set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
> they so choose.
>
> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
Viaduct, vi not a chicken???

-----Original Message-----
From: trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+al=
[mailto:trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+al=] On
Behalf Of Peter Hayden
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 15:40
To: trawlers-and- List
Subject: T&T: Why a list and not a forum?

This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email
address, etc) go to:
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World Productions.
Unauthorized use is prohibited.
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Peter Hayden <> wrote:

> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
>
>
Peter, Peter, many of us are not so young...and change........it is
not so good.

Thanks,
Bob
______________________
Robert Calhoun Smith Jr
*Yacht MARY KATHRYN*
1977 Hatteras 58 LRC
Lying South River
Annapolis, Maryland
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)

This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
>> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed Marvel Mystery
Oil,
micron filter size, or twin vs. single engine ad nauseum, thus allowing us to
do it all over again.

-- Jim
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
I'd like the forum format too. Here's the one Georgs established two
years ago. Hasn't had a lot of traffic lately, unfortunately.

http://trawlercrawler.net/

Richard Cook
New Moon (Bounty 257)



On 4/27/2011 1:39 PM, Peter Hayden wrote:
> This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
> only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
> for a number of reasons. They are:
>
> 1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
> 2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
> 3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
> email only.
>
> The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
> set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
> they so choose.
>
> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
Viaduct, vi not a chicken???

-----Original Message-----
From: trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+al=
[mailto:trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+al=] On
Behalf Of Peter Hayden
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 15:40
To: trawlers-and- List
Subject: T&T: Why a list and not a forum?

This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email
address, etc) go to:
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World Productions.
Unauthorized use is prohibited.
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Peter Hayden <> wrote:

> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
>
>
Peter, Peter, many of us are not so young...and change........it is
not so good.

Thanks,
Bob
______________________
Robert Calhoun Smith Jr
*Yacht MARY KATHRYN*
1977 Hatteras 58 LRC
Lying South River
Annapolis, Maryland
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
>With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed Marvel Mystery
Oil, micron filter size, or twin vs. single engine ad nauseum, thus allowing
us to do it all over again.

I participate or have participated in a number of boating forums over the
years. Trust me, the same subjects are discussed every bit as repetitively on
them as on T&T. In fact it's one reason I no longer participate in some of
these forums--- it's only possible to say the same thing so many ways so many
times.

One of the big advantages in my opinion of a forum format is the ability to
include photos in a post. However I would imagine that a forum format and
photos require a lot more server storage space so perhaps they are
considerably more expensive to host than a mailing list.

Another aspect of forums that some people like and some don't is that they
tend to turn into social sites. There are exceptions--- the Grand Banks
Owners forum being one--- but I find most of the boating forums I have
participated in or perused have over time become fairly trite in overall
content as opposed to something like T&T which is more heavily moderated to
keep things on topic. I know some people don't like this degree of moderation
but after seeing what can happen on an unmoderated boating site I think I
prefer the higher level of moderation as practiced on T&T.. Many of the
discussions on some of the forums I'm familiar with are quick to descend into
"I'm right, you're wrong" arguments with little actual merit.

There is a happy medium between a rigidly moderated site and a totally
unmoderated one, but so far I've not seen a forum effectively achieve this
with the exception (in my opinion) of the Grand Banks Owners site (the
IAGBO).

______________________________
C. Marin Faure
GB36-403 (grp) "La Perouse"
Bellingham, Washington
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)

This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
>> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed Marvel Mystery
Oil,
micron filter size, or twin vs. single engine ad nauseum, thus allowing us to
do it all over again.

-- Jim
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
I'd like the forum format too. Here's the one Georgs established two
years ago. Hasn't had a lot of traffic lately, unfortunately.

http://trawlercrawler.net/

Richard Cook
New Moon (Bounty 257)



On 4/27/2011 1:39 PM, Peter Hayden wrote:
> This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
> only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
> for a number of reasons. They are:
>
> 1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
> 2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
> 3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
> email only.
>
> The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
> set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
> they so choose.
>
> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
Viaduct, vi not a chicken???

-----Original Message-----
From: trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+al=
[mailto:trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+al=] On
Behalf Of Peter Hayden
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 15:40
To: trawlers-and- List
Subject: T&T: Why a list and not a forum?

This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email
address, etc) go to:
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World Productions.
Unauthorized use is prohibited.
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Peter Hayden <> wrote:

> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
>
>
Peter, Peter, many of us are not so young...and change........it is
not so good.

Thanks,
Bob
______________________
Robert Calhoun Smith Jr
*Yacht MARY KATHRYN*
1977 Hatteras 58 LRC
Lying South River
Annapolis, Maryland
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
>With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed Marvel Mystery
Oil, micron filter size, or twin vs. single engine ad nauseum, thus allowing
us to do it all over again.

I participate or have participated in a number of boating forums over the
years. Trust me, the same subjects are discussed every bit as repetitively on
them as on T&T. In fact it's one reason I no longer participate in some of
these forums--- it's only possible to say the same thing so many ways so many
times.

One of the big advantages in my opinion of a forum format is the ability to
include photos in a post. However I would imagine that a forum format and
photos require a lot more server storage space so perhaps they are
considerably more expensive to host than a mailing list.

Another aspect of forums that some people like and some don't is that they
tend to turn into social sites. There are exceptions--- the Grand Banks
Owners forum being one--- but I find most of the boating forums I have
participated in or perused have over time become fairly trite in overall
content as opposed to something like T&T which is more heavily moderated to
keep things on topic. I know some people don't like this degree of moderation
but after seeing what can happen on an unmoderated boating site I think I
prefer the higher level of moderation as practiced on T&T.. Many of the
discussions on some of the forums I'm familiar with are quick to descend into
"I'm right, you're wrong" arguments with little actual merit.

There is a happy medium between a rigidly moderated site and a totally
unmoderated one, but so far I've not seen a forum effectively achieve this
with the exception (in my opinion) of the Grand Banks Owners site (the
IAGBO).

______________________________
C. Marin Faure
GB36-403 (grp) "La Perouse"
Bellingham, Washington
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
Just once, I wished a newbie would just come onboard, read the archives, and
realize the forum is like it is because that is the way the owner of the forum
and the members of the forum want it to be.

Remember when it all started and new members would actually inroduce
themselves?

Larry Gregory
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)

This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
>> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed Marvel Mystery
Oil,
micron filter size, or twin vs. single engine ad nauseum, thus allowing us to
do it all over again.

-- Jim
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
I'd like the forum format too. Here's the one Georgs established two
years ago. Hasn't had a lot of traffic lately, unfortunately.

http://trawlercrawler.net/

Richard Cook
New Moon (Bounty 257)



On 4/27/2011 1:39 PM, Peter Hayden wrote:
> This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
> only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
> for a number of reasons. They are:
>
> 1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
> 2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
> 3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
> email only.
>
> The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
> set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
> they so choose.
>
> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
Viaduct, vi not a chicken???

-----Original Message-----
From: trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+al=
[mailto:trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+al=] On
Behalf Of Peter Hayden
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 15:40
To: trawlers-and- List
Subject: T&T: Why a list and not a forum?

This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email
address, etc) go to:
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World Productions.
Unauthorized use is prohibited.
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Peter Hayden <> wrote:

> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
>
>
Peter, Peter, many of us are not so young...and change........it is
not so good.

Thanks,
Bob
______________________
Robert Calhoun Smith Jr
*Yacht MARY KATHRYN*
1977 Hatteras 58 LRC
Lying South River
Annapolis, Maryland
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
>With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed Marvel Mystery
Oil, micron filter size, or twin vs. single engine ad nauseum, thus allowing
us to do it all over again.

I participate or have participated in a number of boating forums over the
years. Trust me, the same subjects are discussed every bit as repetitively on
them as on T&T. In fact it's one reason I no longer participate in some of
these forums--- it's only possible to say the same thing so many ways so many
times.

One of the big advantages in my opinion of a forum format is the ability to
include photos in a post. However I would imagine that a forum format and
photos require a lot more server storage space so perhaps they are
considerably more expensive to host than a mailing list.

Another aspect of forums that some people like and some don't is that they
tend to turn into social sites. There are exceptions--- the Grand Banks
Owners forum being one--- but I find most of the boating forums I have
participated in or perused have over time become fairly trite in overall
content as opposed to something like T&T which is more heavily moderated to
keep things on topic. I know some people don't like this degree of moderation
but after seeing what can happen on an unmoderated boating site I think I
prefer the higher level of moderation as practiced on T&T.. Many of the
discussions on some of the forums I'm familiar with are quick to descend into
"I'm right, you're wrong" arguments with little actual merit.

There is a happy medium between a rigidly moderated site and a totally
unmoderated one, but so far I've not seen a forum effectively achieve this
with the exception (in my opinion) of the Grand Banks Owners site (the
IAGBO).

______________________________
C. Marin Faure
GB36-403 (grp) "La Perouse"
Bellingham, Washington
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
Just once, I wished a newbie would just come onboard, read the archives, and
realize the forum is like it is because that is the way the owner of the forum
and the members of the forum want it to be.

Remember when it all started and new members would actually inroduce
themselves?

Larry Gregory
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
You can find a good and active one (I can't keep up anymore) at
www.trawlerforum.com

Keith

With every passing hour our solar system comes forty-three thousand miles
closer to globular cluster M13 in the constellation Hercules, and still
there are some misfits who continue to insist that there is no such thing as
progress. -- Ransom K. Ferm
___________________
-----Original Message-----


I'd like the forum format too. Here's the one Georgs established two years
ago. Hasn't had a lot of traffic lately, unfortunately.

http://trawlercrawler.net/

Richard Cook
New Moon (Bounty 257)
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)

This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
>> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed Marvel Mystery
Oil,
micron filter size, or twin vs. single engine ad nauseum, thus allowing us to
do it all over again.

-- Jim
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
I'd like the forum format too. Here's the one Georgs established two
years ago. Hasn't had a lot of traffic lately, unfortunately.

http://trawlercrawler.net/

Richard Cook
New Moon (Bounty 257)



On 4/27/2011 1:39 PM, Peter Hayden wrote:
> This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
> only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
> for a number of reasons. They are:
>
> 1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
> 2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
> 3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
> email only.
>
> The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
> set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
> they so choose.
>
> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
Viaduct, vi not a chicken???

-----Original Message-----
From: trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+al=
[mailto:trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+al=] On
Behalf Of Peter Hayden
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 15:40
To: trawlers-and- List
Subject: T&T: Why a list and not a forum?

This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email
address, etc) go to:
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World Productions.
Unauthorized use is prohibited.
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Peter Hayden <> wrote:

> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
>
>
Peter, Peter, many of us are not so young...and change........it is
not so good.

Thanks,
Bob
______________________
Robert Calhoun Smith Jr
*Yacht MARY KATHRYN*
1977 Hatteras 58 LRC
Lying South River
Annapolis, Maryland
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
>With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed Marvel Mystery
Oil, micron filter size, or twin vs. single engine ad nauseum, thus allowing
us to do it all over again.

I participate or have participated in a number of boating forums over the
years. Trust me, the same subjects are discussed every bit as repetitively on
them as on T&T. In fact it's one reason I no longer participate in some of
these forums--- it's only possible to say the same thing so many ways so many
times.

One of the big advantages in my opinion of a forum format is the ability to
include photos in a post. However I would imagine that a forum format and
photos require a lot more server storage space so perhaps they are
considerably more expensive to host than a mailing list.

Another aspect of forums that some people like and some don't is that they
tend to turn into social sites. There are exceptions--- the Grand Banks
Owners forum being one--- but I find most of the boating forums I have
participated in or perused have over time become fairly trite in overall
content as opposed to something like T&T which is more heavily moderated to
keep things on topic. I know some people don't like this degree of moderation
but after seeing what can happen on an unmoderated boating site I think I
prefer the higher level of moderation as practiced on T&T.. Many of the
discussions on some of the forums I'm familiar with are quick to descend into
"I'm right, you're wrong" arguments with little actual merit.

There is a happy medium between a rigidly moderated site and a totally
unmoderated one, but so far I've not seen a forum effectively achieve this
with the exception (in my opinion) of the Grand Banks Owners site (the
IAGBO).

______________________________
C. Marin Faure
GB36-403 (grp) "La Perouse"
Bellingham, Washington
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
Just once, I wished a newbie would just come onboard, read the archives, and
realize the forum is like it is because that is the way the owner of the forum
and the members of the forum want it to be.

Remember when it all started and new members would actually inroduce
themselves?

Larry Gregory
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
You can find a good and active one (I can't keep up anymore) at
www.trawlerforum.com

Keith

With every passing hour our solar system comes forty-three thousand miles
closer to globular cluster M13 in the constellation Hercules, and still
there are some misfits who continue to insist that there is no such thing as
progress. -- Ransom K. Ferm
___________________
-----Original Message-----


I'd like the forum format too. Here's the one Georgs established two years
ago. Hasn't had a lot of traffic lately, unfortunately.

http://trawlercrawler.net/

Richard Cook
New Moon (Bounty 257)
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
Why? Because email its fast and easy. I enjoy the email over the many forums I check out - hit & miss.

P.S. learned more here in six months than a few years on the fancy forums.
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)

This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
>> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed Marvel Mystery
Oil,
micron filter size, or twin vs. single engine ad nauseum, thus allowing us to
do it all over again.

-- Jim
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
I'd like the forum format too. Here's the one Georgs established two
years ago. Hasn't had a lot of traffic lately, unfortunately.

http://trawlercrawler.net/

Richard Cook
New Moon (Bounty 257)



On 4/27/2011 1:39 PM, Peter Hayden wrote:
> This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
> only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
> for a number of reasons. They are:
>
> 1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
> 2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
> 3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
> email only.
>
> The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
> set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
> they so choose.
>
> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
Viaduct, vi not a chicken???

-----Original Message-----
From: trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+al=
[mailto:trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+al=] On
Behalf Of Peter Hayden
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 15:40
To: trawlers-and- List
Subject: T&T: Why a list and not a forum?

This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email
address, etc) go to:
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World Productions.
Unauthorized use is prohibited.
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Peter Hayden <> wrote:

> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
>
>
Peter, Peter, many of us are not so young...and change........it is
not so good.

Thanks,
Bob
______________________
Robert Calhoun Smith Jr
*Yacht MARY KATHRYN*
1977 Hatteras 58 LRC
Lying South River
Annapolis, Maryland
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
>With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed Marvel Mystery
Oil, micron filter size, or twin vs. single engine ad nauseum, thus allowing
us to do it all over again.

I participate or have participated in a number of boating forums over the
years. Trust me, the same subjects are discussed every bit as repetitively on
them as on T&T. In fact it's one reason I no longer participate in some of
these forums--- it's only possible to say the same thing so many ways so many
times.

One of the big advantages in my opinion of a forum format is the ability to
include photos in a post. However I would imagine that a forum format and
photos require a lot more server storage space so perhaps they are
considerably more expensive to host than a mailing list.

Another aspect of forums that some people like and some don't is that they
tend to turn into social sites. There are exceptions--- the Grand Banks
Owners forum being one--- but I find most of the boating forums I have
participated in or perused have over time become fairly trite in overall
content as opposed to something like T&T which is more heavily moderated to
keep things on topic. I know some people don't like this degree of moderation
but after seeing what can happen on an unmoderated boating site I think I
prefer the higher level of moderation as practiced on T&T.. Many of the
discussions on some of the forums I'm familiar with are quick to descend into
"I'm right, you're wrong" arguments with little actual merit.

There is a happy medium between a rigidly moderated site and a totally
unmoderated one, but so far I've not seen a forum effectively achieve this
with the exception (in my opinion) of the Grand Banks Owners site (the
IAGBO).

______________________________
C. Marin Faure
GB36-403 (grp) "La Perouse"
Bellingham, Washington
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

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Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
Just once, I wished a newbie would just come onboard, read the archives, and
realize the forum is like it is because that is the way the owner of the forum
and the members of the forum want it to be.

Remember when it all started and new members would actually inroduce
themselves?

Larry Gregory
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
You can find a good and active one (I can't keep up anymore) at
www.trawlerforum.com

Keith

With every passing hour our solar system comes forty-three thousand miles
closer to globular cluster M13 in the constellation Hercules, and still
there are some misfits who continue to insist that there is no such thing as
progress. -- Ransom K. Ferm
___________________
-----Original Message-----


I'd like the forum format too. Here's the one Georgs established two years
ago. Hasn't had a lot of traffic lately, unfortunately.

http://trawlercrawler.net/

Richard Cook
New Moon (Bounty 257)
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
Why? Because email its fast and easy. I enjoy the email over the many forums I check out - hit & miss.

P.S. learned more here in six months than a few years on the fancy forums.
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

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Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
> With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed...
> thus allowing us to do it all over again.

Are you guys kidding me. With a memory like mine, this is the greatest advantage of this list. All of these topics have yet to reach the point where I'm beginning to reatain the information... always something new too, even if you're not new to the list. Personally, I like it this way.

Rudy
Briney Bug, Panama City, Fl
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)

This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
>> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed Marvel Mystery
Oil,
micron filter size, or twin vs. single engine ad nauseum, thus allowing us to
do it all over again.

-- Jim
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
I'd like the forum format too. Here's the one Georgs established two
years ago. Hasn't had a lot of traffic lately, unfortunately.

http://trawlercrawler.net/

Richard Cook
New Moon (Bounty 257)



On 4/27/2011 1:39 PM, Peter Hayden wrote:
> This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
> only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
> for a number of reasons. They are:
>
> 1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
> 2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
> 3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
> email only.
>
> The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
> set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
> they so choose.
>
> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
Viaduct, vi not a chicken???

-----Original Message-----
From: trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+al=
[mailto:trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+al=] On
Behalf Of Peter Hayden
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 15:40
To: trawlers-and- List
Subject: T&T: Why a list and not a forum?

This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email
address, etc) go to:
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World Productions.
Unauthorized use is prohibited.
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Peter Hayden <> wrote:

> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
>
>
Peter, Peter, many of us are not so young...and change........it is
not so good.

Thanks,
Bob
______________________
Robert Calhoun Smith Jr
*Yacht MARY KATHRYN*
1977 Hatteras 58 LRC
Lying South River
Annapolis, Maryland
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
>With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed Marvel Mystery
Oil, micron filter size, or twin vs. single engine ad nauseum, thus allowing
us to do it all over again.

I participate or have participated in a number of boating forums over the
years. Trust me, the same subjects are discussed every bit as repetitively on
them as on T&T. In fact it's one reason I no longer participate in some of
these forums--- it's only possible to say the same thing so many ways so many
times.

One of the big advantages in my opinion of a forum format is the ability to
include photos in a post. However I would imagine that a forum format and
photos require a lot more server storage space so perhaps they are
considerably more expensive to host than a mailing list.

Another aspect of forums that some people like and some don't is that they
tend to turn into social sites. There are exceptions--- the Grand Banks
Owners forum being one--- but I find most of the boating forums I have
participated in or perused have over time become fairly trite in overall
content as opposed to something like T&T which is more heavily moderated to
keep things on topic. I know some people don't like this degree of moderation
but after seeing what can happen on an unmoderated boating site I think I
prefer the higher level of moderation as practiced on T&T.. Many of the
discussions on some of the forums I'm familiar with are quick to descend into
"I'm right, you're wrong" arguments with little actual merit.

There is a happy medium between a rigidly moderated site and a totally
unmoderated one, but so far I've not seen a forum effectively achieve this
with the exception (in my opinion) of the Grand Banks Owners site (the
IAGBO).

______________________________
C. Marin Faure
GB36-403 (grp) "La Perouse"
Bellingham, Washington
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
Just once, I wished a newbie would just come onboard, read the archives, and
realize the forum is like it is because that is the way the owner of the forum
and the members of the forum want it to be.

Remember when it all started and new members would actually inroduce
themselves?

Larry Gregory
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
You can find a good and active one (I can't keep up anymore) at
www.trawlerforum.com

Keith

With every passing hour our solar system comes forty-three thousand miles
closer to globular cluster M13 in the constellation Hercules, and still
there are some misfits who continue to insist that there is no such thing as
progress. -- Ransom K. Ferm
___________________
-----Original Message-----


I'd like the forum format too. Here's the one Georgs established two years
ago. Hasn't had a lot of traffic lately, unfortunately.

http://trawlercrawler.net/

Richard Cook
New Moon (Bounty 257)
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
Why? Because email its fast and easy. I enjoy the email over the many forums I check out - hit & miss.

P.S. learned more here in six months than a few years on the fancy forums.
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
> With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed...
> thus allowing us to do it all over again.

Are you guys kidding me. With a memory like mine, this is the greatest advantage of this list. All of these topics have yet to reach the point where I'm beginning to reatain the information... always something new too, even if you're not new to the list. Personally, I like it this way.

Rudy
Briney Bug, Panama City, Fl
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
OK, thanks. Back to Mystery Oil
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)

This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
>> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed Marvel Mystery
Oil,
micron filter size, or twin vs. single engine ad nauseum, thus allowing us to
do it all over again.

-- Jim
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
I'd like the forum format too. Here's the one Georgs established two
years ago. Hasn't had a lot of traffic lately, unfortunately.

http://trawlercrawler.net/

Richard Cook
New Moon (Bounty 257)



On 4/27/2011 1:39 PM, Peter Hayden wrote:
> This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
> only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
> for a number of reasons. They are:
>
> 1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
> 2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
> 3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
> email only.
>
> The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
> set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
> they so choose.
>
> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
Viaduct, vi not a chicken???

-----Original Message-----
From: trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+al=
[mailto:trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+al=] On
Behalf Of Peter Hayden
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 15:40
To: trawlers-and- List
Subject: T&T: Why a list and not a forum?

This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email
address, etc) go to:
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World Productions.
Unauthorized use is prohibited.
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Peter Hayden <> wrote:

> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
>
>
Peter, Peter, many of us are not so young...and change........it is
not so good.

Thanks,
Bob
______________________
Robert Calhoun Smith Jr
*Yacht MARY KATHRYN*
1977 Hatteras 58 LRC
Lying South River
Annapolis, Maryland
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
>With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed Marvel Mystery
Oil, micron filter size, or twin vs. single engine ad nauseum, thus allowing
us to do it all over again.

I participate or have participated in a number of boating forums over the
years. Trust me, the same subjects are discussed every bit as repetitively on
them as on T&T. In fact it's one reason I no longer participate in some of
these forums--- it's only possible to say the same thing so many ways so many
times.

One of the big advantages in my opinion of a forum format is the ability to
include photos in a post. However I would imagine that a forum format and
photos require a lot more server storage space so perhaps they are
considerably more expensive to host than a mailing list.

Another aspect of forums that some people like and some don't is that they
tend to turn into social sites. There are exceptions--- the Grand Banks
Owners forum being one--- but I find most of the boating forums I have
participated in or perused have over time become fairly trite in overall
content as opposed to something like T&T which is more heavily moderated to
keep things on topic. I know some people don't like this degree of moderation
but after seeing what can happen on an unmoderated boating site I think I
prefer the higher level of moderation as practiced on T&T.. Many of the
discussions on some of the forums I'm familiar with are quick to descend into
"I'm right, you're wrong" arguments with little actual merit.

There is a happy medium between a rigidly moderated site and a totally
unmoderated one, but so far I've not seen a forum effectively achieve this
with the exception (in my opinion) of the Grand Banks Owners site (the
IAGBO).

______________________________
C. Marin Faure
GB36-403 (grp) "La Perouse"
Bellingham, Washington
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
Just once, I wished a newbie would just come onboard, read the archives, and
realize the forum is like it is because that is the way the owner of the forum
and the members of the forum want it to be.

Remember when it all started and new members would actually inroduce
themselves?

Larry Gregory
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
You can find a good and active one (I can't keep up anymore) at
www.trawlerforum.com

Keith

With every passing hour our solar system comes forty-three thousand miles
closer to globular cluster M13 in the constellation Hercules, and still
there are some misfits who continue to insist that there is no such thing as
progress. -- Ransom K. Ferm
___________________
-----Original Message-----


I'd like the forum format too. Here's the one Georgs established two years
ago. Hasn't had a lot of traffic lately, unfortunately.

http://trawlercrawler.net/

Richard Cook
New Moon (Bounty 257)
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
Why? Because email its fast and easy. I enjoy the email over the many forums I check out - hit & miss.

P.S. learned more here in six months than a few years on the fancy forums.
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
> With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed...
> thus allowing us to do it all over again.

Are you guys kidding me. With a memory like mine, this is the greatest advantage of this list. All of these topics have yet to reach the point where I'm beginning to reatain the information... always something new too, even if you're not new to the list. Personally, I like it this way.

Rudy
Briney Bug, Panama City, Fl
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
OK, thanks. Back to Mystery Oil
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
From previous discussions, a number of reasons have favoured the mail list

Security.
reduced bandwidth for those who are out actually cruising.
if it ain't broke don't fix it - I've also got a career orientated mail list
where someone decided we needed a Facebook group - nothing happens there or
has for months.
my e-mail client groups messages by topic.

CHeers

Mike Eedy
North Bay ON

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Hayden" <>
To:
>
> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
>
> Peter
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)

This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
>> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed Marvel Mystery
Oil,
micron filter size, or twin vs. single engine ad nauseum, thus allowing us to
do it all over again.

-- Jim
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
I'd like the forum format too. Here's the one Georgs established two
years ago. Hasn't had a lot of traffic lately, unfortunately.

http://trawlercrawler.net/

Richard Cook
New Moon (Bounty 257)



On 4/27/2011 1:39 PM, Peter Hayden wrote:
> This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
> only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
> for a number of reasons. They are:
>
> 1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
> 2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
> 3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
> email only.
>
> The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
> set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
> they so choose.
>
> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
_______________________________________________
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Viaduct, vi not a chicken???

-----Original Message-----
From: trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+al=
[mailto:trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+al=] On
Behalf Of Peter Hayden
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 15:40
To: trawlers-and- List
Subject: T&T: Why a list and not a forum?

This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
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address, etc) go to:
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)
On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Peter Hayden <> wrote:

> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
>
>
Peter, Peter, many of us are not so young...and change........it is
not so good.

Thanks,
Bob
______________________
Robert Calhoun Smith Jr
*Yacht MARY KATHRYN*
1977 Hatteras 58 LRC
Lying South River
Annapolis, Maryland
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)
>With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed Marvel Mystery
Oil, micron filter size, or twin vs. single engine ad nauseum, thus allowing
us to do it all over again.

I participate or have participated in a number of boating forums over the
years. Trust me, the same subjects are discussed every bit as repetitively on
them as on T&T. In fact it's one reason I no longer participate in some of
these forums--- it's only possible to say the same thing so many ways so many
times.

One of the big advantages in my opinion of a forum format is the ability to
include photos in a post. However I would imagine that a forum format and
photos require a lot more server storage space so perhaps they are
considerably more expensive to host than a mailing list.

Another aspect of forums that some people like and some don't is that they
tend to turn into social sites. There are exceptions--- the Grand Banks
Owners forum being one--- but I find most of the boating forums I have
participated in or perused have over time become fairly trite in overall
content as opposed to something like T&T which is more heavily moderated to
keep things on topic. I know some people don't like this degree of moderation
but after seeing what can happen on an unmoderated boating site I think I
prefer the higher level of moderation as practiced on T&T.. Many of the
discussions on some of the forums I'm familiar with are quick to descend into
"I'm right, you're wrong" arguments with little actual merit.

There is a happy medium between a rigidly moderated site and a totally
unmoderated one, but so far I've not seen a forum effectively achieve this
with the exception (in my opinion) of the Grand Banks Owners site (the
IAGBO).

______________________________
C. Marin Faure
GB36-403 (grp) "La Perouse"
Bellingham, Washington
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)
Just once, I wished a newbie would just come onboard, read the archives, and
realize the forum is like it is because that is the way the owner of the forum
and the members of the forum want it to be.

Remember when it all started and new members would actually inroduce
themselves?

Larry Gregory
_______________________________________________
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)
You can find a good and active one (I can't keep up anymore) at
www.trawlerforum.com

Keith

With every passing hour our solar system comes forty-three thousand miles
closer to globular cluster M13 in the constellation Hercules, and still
there are some misfits who continue to insist that there is no such thing as
progress. -- Ransom K. Ferm
___________________
-----Original Message-----


I'd like the forum format too. Here's the one Georgs established two years
ago. Hasn't had a lot of traffic lately, unfortunately.

http://trawlercrawler.net/

Richard Cook
New Moon (Bounty 257)
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)
Why? Because email its fast and easy. I enjoy the email over the many forums I check out - hit & miss.

P.S. learned more here in six months than a few years on the fancy forums.
_______________________________________________
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> With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed...
> thus allowing us to do it all over again.

Are you guys kidding me. With a memory like mine, this is the greatest advantage of this list. All of these topics have yet to reach the point where I'm beginning to reatain the information... always something new too, even if you're not new to the list. Personally, I like it this way.

Rudy
Briney Bug, Panama City, Fl
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)
OK, thanks. Back to Mystery Oil
_______________________________________________
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)
From previous discussions, a number of reasons have favoured the mail list

Security.
reduced bandwidth for those who are out actually cruising.
if it ain't broke don't fix it - I've also got a career orientated mail list
where someone decided we needed a Facebook group - nothing happens there or
has for months.
my e-mail client groups messages by topic.

CHeers

Mike Eedy
North Bay ON

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Hayden" <>
To:
>
> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
>
> Peter
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)
The short answer, Peter and others, is that many people love the email format.
Like about 2,000 subscribers and growing.

I did launch a forum two years at http://www.trawlercrawler.net but it has
never generated the traffic the list does.

If you prefer the forum format, get on over there and start up a discussion.

--Georgs

Georgs Kolesnikovs
Your host at Trawlers & Trawlering since 1997
http://www.trawlersandtrawlering.com
Your host at TrawlerCrawler.net since 2009
http://www.trawlercrawler.net


> This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is
operated
> only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web
forum
> for a number of reasons. They are:
>
> 1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
> 2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
> 3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
> email only.
>
> The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
> set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only
if
> they so choose.
>
> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
>
> Peter
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

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Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)

This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

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Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
>> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed Marvel Mystery
Oil,
micron filter size, or twin vs. single engine ad nauseum, thus allowing us to
do it all over again.

-- Jim
_______________________________________________
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)
I'd like the forum format too. Here's the one Georgs established two
years ago. Hasn't had a lot of traffic lately, unfortunately.

http://trawlercrawler.net/

Richard Cook
New Moon (Bounty 257)



On 4/27/2011 1:39 PM, Peter Hayden wrote:
> This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
> only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
> for a number of reasons. They are:
>
> 1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
> 2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
> 3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
> email only.
>
> The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
> set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
> they so choose.
>
> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
_______________________________________________
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)
Viaduct, vi not a chicken???

-----Original Message-----
From: trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+al=
[mailto:trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+al=] On
Behalf Of Peter Hayden
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 15:40
To: trawlers-and- List
Subject: T&T: Why a list and not a forum?

This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email
address, etc) go to:
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Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World Productions.
Unauthorized use is prohibited.
_______________________________________________
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Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Peter Hayden <> wrote:

> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
>
>
Peter, Peter, many of us are not so young...and change........it is
not so good.

Thanks,
Bob
______________________
Robert Calhoun Smith Jr
*Yacht MARY KATHRYN*
1977 Hatteras 58 LRC
Lying South River
Annapolis, Maryland
_______________________________________________
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Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
>With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed Marvel Mystery
Oil, micron filter size, or twin vs. single engine ad nauseum, thus allowing
us to do it all over again.

I participate or have participated in a number of boating forums over the
years. Trust me, the same subjects are discussed every bit as repetitively on
them as on T&T. In fact it's one reason I no longer participate in some of
these forums--- it's only possible to say the same thing so many ways so many
times.

One of the big advantages in my opinion of a forum format is the ability to
include photos in a post. However I would imagine that a forum format and
photos require a lot more server storage space so perhaps they are
considerably more expensive to host than a mailing list.

Another aspect of forums that some people like and some don't is that they
tend to turn into social sites. There are exceptions--- the Grand Banks
Owners forum being one--- but I find most of the boating forums I have
participated in or perused have over time become fairly trite in overall
content as opposed to something like T&T which is more heavily moderated to
keep things on topic. I know some people don't like this degree of moderation
but after seeing what can happen on an unmoderated boating site I think I
prefer the higher level of moderation as practiced on T&T.. Many of the
discussions on some of the forums I'm familiar with are quick to descend into
"I'm right, you're wrong" arguments with little actual merit.

There is a happy medium between a rigidly moderated site and a totally
unmoderated one, but so far I've not seen a forum effectively achieve this
with the exception (in my opinion) of the Grand Banks Owners site (the
IAGBO).

______________________________
C. Marin Faure
GB36-403 (grp) "La Perouse"
Bellingham, Washington
_______________________________________________
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Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
Just once, I wished a newbie would just come onboard, read the archives, and
realize the forum is like it is because that is the way the owner of the forum
and the members of the forum want it to be.

Remember when it all started and new members would actually inroduce
themselves?

Larry Gregory
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

To unsubscribe or modify your subscription options (get password, change email address, etc) go to: http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/options/trawlers-and-trawlering

Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
You can find a good and active one (I can't keep up anymore) at
www.trawlerforum.com

Keith

With every passing hour our solar system comes forty-three thousand miles
closer to globular cluster M13 in the constellation Hercules, and still
there are some misfits who continue to insist that there is no such thing as
progress. -- Ransom K. Ferm
___________________
-----Original Message-----


I'd like the forum format too. Here's the one Georgs established two years
ago. Hasn't had a lot of traffic lately, unfortunately.

http://trawlercrawler.net/

Richard Cook
New Moon (Bounty 257)
_______________________________________________
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Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
Why? Because email its fast and easy. I enjoy the email over the many forums I check out - hit & miss.

P.S. learned more here in six months than a few years on the fancy forums.
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

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Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
> With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed...
> thus allowing us to do it all over again.

Are you guys kidding me. With a memory like mine, this is the greatest advantage of this list. All of these topics have yet to reach the point where I'm beginning to reatain the information... always something new too, even if you're not new to the list. Personally, I like it this way.

Rudy
Briney Bug, Panama City, Fl
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)
OK, thanks. Back to Mystery Oil
_______________________________________________
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Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
From previous discussions, a number of reasons have favoured the mail list

Security.
reduced bandwidth for those who are out actually cruising.
if it ain't broke don't fix it - I've also got a career orientated mail list
where someone decided we needed a Facebook group - nothing happens there or
has for months.
my e-mail client groups messages by topic.

CHeers

Mike Eedy
North Bay ON

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Hayden" <>
To:
>
> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
>
> Peter
_______________________________________________
http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering

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Trawlers & Trawlering and T&T are trademarks of Water World
Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
The short answer, Peter and others, is that many people love the email format.
Like about 2,000 subscribers and growing.

I did launch a forum two years at http://www.trawlercrawler.net but it has
never generated the traffic the list does.

If you prefer the forum format, get on over there and start up a discussion.

--Georgs

Georgs Kolesnikovs
Your host at Trawlers & Trawlering since 1997
http://www.trawlersandtrawlering.com
Your host at TrawlerCrawler.net since 2009
http://www.trawlercrawler.net


> This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is
operated
> only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web
forum
> for a number of reasons. They are:
>
> 1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
> 2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
> 3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
> email only.
>
> The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
> set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only
if
> they so choose.
>
> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
>
> Peter
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Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
)
Peter,

You asked a serious question, so I will attempt a serious answer. I mean no
personal disrespect to any persons with my observations, following. My
comments are about the "system" that is T&T; a system comprised of interacting
and overlapping human and technological components. I believe my summary is
accurate and reflects reality, but I acknowledge some of my comments may sound
harsh, particularly in email form.

In watching this T&T list operate over the past several years, it seems to me
there is strong resistance to ideas about changing it, and rigid adherence to
"rules" laid down by it's leaders (owners), some of which make only partial
sense. This has driven away some major contributors over time, and that
outcome seems acceptable to list leaders and is tolerated by us, all of us,
the list's users. The design point of this list - defacto, just the standard
of its day - is as a collecting point for posing and responding to random
topics in random order.

Resistance to change is human factors in nature, on the part of both the
people who run the list and those of us who use it; it's not about technology.
Fundamentally, the vast majority of users feel "it's OK." Creating an
effective forum is *very difficult.* To work effectively, a forum has to have
a complete, robust taxonomy. That necessitates a very substantial startup and
learning curve just to determine, organize and codify topic categories. That
could be done here. The data to construct a taxonomy is present in the many
years of archives we have. But there's no interest in doing it. No desire.
There's no vision and little appreciation of how it could be better, and the
intellectual "cost" of entry is high.

I believe you participate in the AGLCA forum, so you know that forum's
taxonomy is not very robust. The vast majority of posts wind up in the
"general" category. Their audience turns over quickly, so users learning a
complex taxonomy is not likely to happen. Developing an effective taxonomy
requires many hours of thoughtful consideration behind the scenes, and
collegial discussion and open mindedness on the part of the leadership with
knowledgeable users. It also requires willingness on the part of users to
learn it and use it. Not sure T&T has either interest. T&T's sole advantage
is it's simplicity of use. Difficulties with searches, archives and posting
pictures are largely accepted and ignored. People just ask the same old
questions again and again, and for the most part, responders are kind enough
and generous enough to simply respond again. If you look at the data (actual
message traffic in our years of archives) you'll see several topics that
routinely come up every few months, including this one, about 6 months ago. A
good search capability would remedy that, but then, individual users would
have to know how to do searches, and many T&T folks proudly assert that they
are not computer literate and intend to stay that way (I believe we've seen it
in this thread already). In fact, computer related topics related to boating
apps have actually been discouraged on this list. I and others have been
advised to "take your Windows question to a Windows forum," even though the
question was unique to an ECS app, or GPS setup, or software hangs. I have an
open question now on searching the T&T archives (not getting hits on keywords
using Google search) that one of the administrators agreed to follow up on. I
have been waiting on that for several weeks, and although many people have
reported the same problem searching the archives, I believe its out-of-sight
and out-of-mind at this point.

Nevertheless, T&T as-is works for a lot of people. I think it has a lot of
value, even with it's severe limitations.

If you want fora, there are plenty out there. Incidentally, I am not
overwhelmingly convinced they're that much better; they just have different
limitations. I didn't personally think much of the seriousness of the
"viaduct, vi not a chicken" response, but in the context of the different
strengths and weaknesses of mail lists vs. fora, it does have merit.

My advice: don't tinker with success.

Jim

Peg and Jim Healy aboard Sanctuary
Currently at Belhaven, NC
Monk 36 Hull #132
MMSI #367042570
AGLCA #3767
MTOA #3436
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)

This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
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>> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed Marvel Mystery
Oil,
micron filter size, or twin vs. single engine ad nauseum, thus allowing us to
do it all over again.

-- Jim
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I'd like the forum format too. Here's the one Georgs established two
years ago. Hasn't had a lot of traffic lately, unfortunately.

http://trawlercrawler.net/

Richard Cook
New Moon (Bounty 257)



On 4/27/2011 1:39 PM, Peter Hayden wrote:
> This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
> only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
> for a number of reasons. They are:
>
> 1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
> 2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
> 3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
> email only.
>
> The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
> set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
> they so choose.
>
> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
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Viaduct, vi not a chicken???

-----Original Message-----
From: trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+al=
[mailto:trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+al=] On
Behalf Of Peter Hayden
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 15:40
To: trawlers-and- List
Subject: T&T: Why a list and not a forum?

This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
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On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Peter Hayden <> wrote:

> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
>
>
Peter, Peter, many of us are not so young...and change........it is
not so good.

Thanks,
Bob
______________________
Robert Calhoun Smith Jr
*Yacht MARY KATHRYN*
1977 Hatteras 58 LRC
Lying South River
Annapolis, Maryland
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>With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed Marvel Mystery
Oil, micron filter size, or twin vs. single engine ad nauseum, thus allowing
us to do it all over again.

I participate or have participated in a number of boating forums over the
years. Trust me, the same subjects are discussed every bit as repetitively on
them as on T&T. In fact it's one reason I no longer participate in some of
these forums--- it's only possible to say the same thing so many ways so many
times.

One of the big advantages in my opinion of a forum format is the ability to
include photos in a post. However I would imagine that a forum format and
photos require a lot more server storage space so perhaps they are
considerably more expensive to host than a mailing list.

Another aspect of forums that some people like and some don't is that they
tend to turn into social sites. There are exceptions--- the Grand Banks
Owners forum being one--- but I find most of the boating forums I have
participated in or perused have over time become fairly trite in overall
content as opposed to something like T&T which is more heavily moderated to
keep things on topic. I know some people don't like this degree of moderation
but after seeing what can happen on an unmoderated boating site I think I
prefer the higher level of moderation as practiced on T&T.. Many of the
discussions on some of the forums I'm familiar with are quick to descend into
"I'm right, you're wrong" arguments with little actual merit.

There is a happy medium between a rigidly moderated site and a totally
unmoderated one, but so far I've not seen a forum effectively achieve this
with the exception (in my opinion) of the Grand Banks Owners site (the
IAGBO).

______________________________
C. Marin Faure
GB36-403 (grp) "La Perouse"
Bellingham, Washington
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Just once, I wished a newbie would just come onboard, read the archives, and
realize the forum is like it is because that is the way the owner of the forum
and the members of the forum want it to be.

Remember when it all started and new members would actually inroduce
themselves?

Larry Gregory
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You can find a good and active one (I can't keep up anymore) at
www.trawlerforum.com

Keith

With every passing hour our solar system comes forty-three thousand miles
closer to globular cluster M13 in the constellation Hercules, and still
there are some misfits who continue to insist that there is no such thing as
progress. -- Ransom K. Ferm
___________________
-----Original Message-----


I'd like the forum format too. Here's the one Georgs established two years
ago. Hasn't had a lot of traffic lately, unfortunately.

http://trawlercrawler.net/

Richard Cook
New Moon (Bounty 257)
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Why? Because email its fast and easy. I enjoy the email over the many forums I check out - hit & miss.

P.S. learned more here in six months than a few years on the fancy forums.
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> With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed...
> thus allowing us to do it all over again.

Are you guys kidding me. With a memory like mine, this is the greatest advantage of this list. All of these topics have yet to reach the point where I'm beginning to reatain the information... always something new too, even if you're not new to the list. Personally, I like it this way.

Rudy
Briney Bug, Panama City, Fl
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OK, thanks. Back to Mystery Oil
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From previous discussions, a number of reasons have favoured the mail list

Security.
reduced bandwidth for those who are out actually cruising.
if it ain't broke don't fix it - I've also got a career orientated mail list
where someone decided we needed a Facebook group - nothing happens there or
has for months.
my e-mail client groups messages by topic.

CHeers

Mike Eedy
North Bay ON

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Hayden" <>
To:
>
> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
>
> Peter
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The short answer, Peter and others, is that many people love the email format.
Like about 2,000 subscribers and growing.

I did launch a forum two years at http://www.trawlercrawler.net but it has
never generated the traffic the list does.

If you prefer the forum format, get on over there and start up a discussion.

--Georgs

Georgs Kolesnikovs
Your host at Trawlers & Trawlering since 1997
http://www.trawlersandtrawlering.com
Your host at TrawlerCrawler.net since 2009
http://www.trawlercrawler.net


> This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is
operated
> only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web
forum
> for a number of reasons. They are:
>
> 1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
> 2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
> 3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
> email only.
>
> The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
> set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only
if
> they so choose.
>
> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
>
> Peter
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Peter,

You asked a serious question, so I will attempt a serious answer. I mean no
personal disrespect to any persons with my observations, following. My
comments are about the "system" that is T&T; a system comprised of interacting
and overlapping human and technological components. I believe my summary is
accurate and reflects reality, but I acknowledge some of my comments may sound
harsh, particularly in email form.

In watching this T&T list operate over the past several years, it seems to me
there is strong resistance to ideas about changing it, and rigid adherence to
"rules" laid down by it's leaders (owners), some of which make only partial
sense. This has driven away some major contributors over time, and that
outcome seems acceptable to list leaders and is tolerated by us, all of us,
the list's users. The design point of this list - defacto, just the standard
of its day - is as a collecting point for posing and responding to random
topics in random order.

Resistance to change is human factors in nature, on the part of both the
people who run the list and those of us who use it; it's not about technology.
Fundamentally, the vast majority of users feel "it's OK." Creating an
effective forum is *very difficult.* To work effectively, a forum has to have
a complete, robust taxonomy. That necessitates a very substantial startup and
learning curve just to determine, organize and codify topic categories. That
could be done here. The data to construct a taxonomy is present in the many
years of archives we have. But there's no interest in doing it. No desire.
There's no vision and little appreciation of how it could be better, and the
intellectual "cost" of entry is high.

I believe you participate in the AGLCA forum, so you know that forum's
taxonomy is not very robust. The vast majority of posts wind up in the
"general" category. Their audience turns over quickly, so users learning a
complex taxonomy is not likely to happen. Developing an effective taxonomy
requires many hours of thoughtful consideration behind the scenes, and
collegial discussion and open mindedness on the part of the leadership with
knowledgeable users. It also requires willingness on the part of users to
learn it and use it. Not sure T&T has either interest. T&T's sole advantage
is it's simplicity of use. Difficulties with searches, archives and posting
pictures are largely accepted and ignored. People just ask the same old
questions again and again, and for the most part, responders are kind enough
and generous enough to simply respond again. If you look at the data (actual
message traffic in our years of archives) you'll see several topics that
routinely come up every few months, including this one, about 6 months ago. A
good search capability would remedy that, but then, individual users would
have to know how to do searches, and many T&T folks proudly assert that they
are not computer literate and intend to stay that way (I believe we've seen it
in this thread already). In fact, computer related topics related to boating
apps have actually been discouraged on this list. I and others have been
advised to "take your Windows question to a Windows forum," even though the
question was unique to an ECS app, or GPS setup, or software hangs. I have an
open question now on searching the T&T archives (not getting hits on keywords
using Google search) that one of the administrators agreed to follow up on. I
have been waiting on that for several weeks, and although many people have
reported the same problem searching the archives, I believe its out-of-sight
and out-of-mind at this point.

Nevertheless, T&T as-is works for a lot of people. I think it has a lot of
value, even with it's severe limitations.

If you want fora, there are plenty out there. Incidentally, I am not
overwhelmingly convinced they're that much better; they just have different
limitations. I didn't personally think much of the seriousness of the
"viaduct, vi not a chicken" response, but in the context of the different
strengths and weaknesses of mail lists vs. fora, it does have merit.

My advice: don't tinker with success.

Jim

Peg and Jim Healy aboard Sanctuary
Currently at Belhaven, NC
Monk 36 Hull #132
MMSI #367042570
AGLCA #3767
MTOA #3436
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Jim,

Thanks for the thoughtful and constructive response. It sure contrasts one
nasty private email I received, presumably not from the welcoming committee.

I guess I'd summarize the collective responses as saying "Yes, we understand
the limitations of a list, but really like the simplicity, and on balance
choose to stick with a list." That's fine, I fully accept it, and hope to
continue to participate in that context. One person said to me "If you don't
like lists then why did you sign up?". To me, it's about content first, and
format second. The content on this list is good - that's why I signed up and
why I continue to participate - even though I think it could be even more
useful in a different format.

Regarding taxonomy, I agree it doesn't go well with any forum or list partly
because they are intended to be free-form. That said, good search
capabilities can make up for a lot of evil in the taxonomy department. In the
forum world, different sites take different approaches to organization, as I'm
sure you know. One, YachtForum.com I think, is so
granularly organized that it's nearly useless. On the other end of the
spectrum (sort of), there is another site unrelated to boats that has taken an
interesting approach. They have a fairly conventional forum structure, but
also have a Wiki "manual" that is evolving nicely, and is a structured, well
organized manual on the subject matter constructed from content from the
forums, creating an organized presentation of the communities collective
wisdom. Anyway, I'm not suggesting T&T do any of this - I just find it
interesting.

OK, back to my stabilizers. There's work to be done and a launch date to
meet.....

Peter


On Apr 28, 2011, at 10:45 AM, Jim Healy wrote:

Peter,

You asked a serious question, so I will attempt a serious answer. I mean no
personal disrespect to any persons with my observations, following. My
comments are about the "system" that is T&T; a system comprised of interacting
and overlapping human and technological components. I believe my summary is
accurate and reflects reality, but I acknowledge some of my comments may sound
harsh, particularly in email form.

In watching this T&T list operate over the past several years, it seems to me
there is strong resistance to ideas about changing it, and rigid adherence to
"rules" laid down by it's leaders (owners), some of which make only partial
sense. This has driven away some major contributors over time, and that
outcome seems acceptable to list leaders and is tolerated by us, all of us,
the list's users. The design point of this list - defacto, just the standard
of its day - is as a collecting point for posing and responding to random
topics in random order.

Resistance to change is human factors in nature, on the part of both the
people who run the list and those of us who use it; it's not about technology.
Fundamentally, the vast majority of users feel "it's OK." Creating an
effective forum is *very difficult.* To work effectively, a forum has to have
a complete, robust taxonomy. That necessitates a very substantial startup and
learning curve just to determine, organize and codify topic categories. That
could be done here. The data to construct a taxonomy is present in the many
years of archives we have. But there's no interest in doing it. No desire.
There's no vision and little appreciation of how it could be better, and the
intellectual "cost" of entry is high.

I believe you participate in the AGLCA forum, so you know that forum's
taxonomy is not very robust. The vast majority of posts wind up in the
"general" category. Their audience turns over quickly, so users learning a
complex taxonomy is not likely to happen. Developing an effective taxonomy
requires many hours of thoughtful consideration behind the scenes, and
collegial discussion and open mindedness on the part of the leadership with
knowledgeable users. It also requires willingness on the part of users to
learn it and use it. Not sure T&T has either interest. T&T's sole advantage
is it's simplicity of use. Difficulties with searches, archives and posting
pictures are largely accepted and ignored. People just ask the same old
questions again and again, and for the most part, responders are kind enough
and generous enough to simply respond again. If you look at the data (actual
message traffic in our years of archives) you'll see several topics that
routinely come up every few months, including this one, about 6 months ago. A
good search capability would remedy that, but then, individual users would
have to know how to do searches, and many T&T folks proudly assert that they
are not computer literate and intend to stay that way (I believe we've seen it
in this thread already). In fact, computer related topics related to boating
apps have actually been discouraged on this list. I and others have been
advised to "take your Windows question to a Windows forum," even though the
question was unique to an ECS app, or GPS setup, or software hangs. I have an
open question now on searching the T&T archives (not getting hits on keywords
using Google search) that one of the administrators agreed to follow up on. I
have been waiting on that for several weeks, and although many people have
reported the same problem searching the archives, I believe its out-of-sight
and out-of-mind at this point.

Nevertheless, T&T as-is works for a lot of people. I think it has a lot of
value, even with it's severe limitations.

If you want fora, there are plenty out there. Incidentally, I am not
overwhelmingly convinced they're that much better; they just have different
limitations. I didn't personally think much of the seriousness of the
"viaduct, vi not a chicken" response, but in the context of the different
strengths and weaknesses of mail lists vs. fora, it does have merit.

My advice: don't tinker with success.

Jim

Peg and Jim Healy aboard Sanctuary
Currently at Belhaven, NC
Monk 36 Hull #132
MMSI #367042570
AGLCA #3767
MTOA #3436
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)

This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
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)
>> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed Marvel Mystery
Oil,
micron filter size, or twin vs. single engine ad nauseum, thus allowing us to
do it all over again.

-- Jim
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)
I'd like the forum format too. Here's the one Georgs established two
years ago. Hasn't had a lot of traffic lately, unfortunately.

http://trawlercrawler.net/

Richard Cook
New Moon (Bounty 257)



On 4/27/2011 1:39 PM, Peter Hayden wrote:
> This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
> only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
> for a number of reasons. They are:
>
> 1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
> 2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
> 3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
> email only.
>
> The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
> set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
> they so choose.
>
> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
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Viaduct, vi not a chicken???

-----Original Message-----
From: trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+al=
[mailto:trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+al=] On
Behalf Of Peter Hayden
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 15:40
To: trawlers-and- List
Subject: T&T: Why a list and not a forum?

This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
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)
On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Peter Hayden <> wrote:

> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
>
>
Peter, Peter, many of us are not so young...and change........it is
not so good.

Thanks,
Bob
______________________
Robert Calhoun Smith Jr
*Yacht MARY KATHRYN*
1977 Hatteras 58 LRC
Lying South River
Annapolis, Maryland
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>With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed Marvel Mystery
Oil, micron filter size, or twin vs. single engine ad nauseum, thus allowing
us to do it all over again.

I participate or have participated in a number of boating forums over the
years. Trust me, the same subjects are discussed every bit as repetitively on
them as on T&T. In fact it's one reason I no longer participate in some of
these forums--- it's only possible to say the same thing so many ways so many
times.

One of the big advantages in my opinion of a forum format is the ability to
include photos in a post. However I would imagine that a forum format and
photos require a lot more server storage space so perhaps they are
considerably more expensive to host than a mailing list.

Another aspect of forums that some people like and some don't is that they
tend to turn into social sites. There are exceptions--- the Grand Banks
Owners forum being one--- but I find most of the boating forums I have
participated in or perused have over time become fairly trite in overall
content as opposed to something like T&T which is more heavily moderated to
keep things on topic. I know some people don't like this degree of moderation
but after seeing what can happen on an unmoderated boating site I think I
prefer the higher level of moderation as practiced on T&T.. Many of the
discussions on some of the forums I'm familiar with are quick to descend into
"I'm right, you're wrong" arguments with little actual merit.

There is a happy medium between a rigidly moderated site and a totally
unmoderated one, but so far I've not seen a forum effectively achieve this
with the exception (in my opinion) of the Grand Banks Owners site (the
IAGBO).

______________________________
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GB36-403 (grp) "La Perouse"
Bellingham, Washington
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Just once, I wished a newbie would just come onboard, read the archives, and
realize the forum is like it is because that is the way the owner of the forum
and the members of the forum want it to be.

Remember when it all started and new members would actually inroduce
themselves?

Larry Gregory
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You can find a good and active one (I can't keep up anymore) at
www.trawlerforum.com

Keith

With every passing hour our solar system comes forty-three thousand miles
closer to globular cluster M13 in the constellation Hercules, and still
there are some misfits who continue to insist that there is no such thing as
progress. -- Ransom K. Ferm
___________________
-----Original Message-----


I'd like the forum format too. Here's the one Georgs established two years
ago. Hasn't had a lot of traffic lately, unfortunately.

http://trawlercrawler.net/

Richard Cook
New Moon (Bounty 257)
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Why? Because email its fast and easy. I enjoy the email over the many forums I check out - hit & miss.

P.S. learned more here in six months than a few years on the fancy forums.
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> With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed...
> thus allowing us to do it all over again.

Are you guys kidding me. With a memory like mine, this is the greatest advantage of this list. All of these topics have yet to reach the point where I'm beginning to reatain the information... always something new too, even if you're not new to the list. Personally, I like it this way.

Rudy
Briney Bug, Panama City, Fl
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OK, thanks. Back to Mystery Oil
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From previous discussions, a number of reasons have favoured the mail list

Security.
reduced bandwidth for those who are out actually cruising.
if it ain't broke don't fix it - I've also got a career orientated mail list
where someone decided we needed a Facebook group - nothing happens there or
has for months.
my e-mail client groups messages by topic.

CHeers

Mike Eedy
North Bay ON

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Hayden" <>
To:
>
> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
>
> Peter
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The short answer, Peter and others, is that many people love the email format.
Like about 2,000 subscribers and growing.

I did launch a forum two years at http://www.trawlercrawler.net but it has
never generated the traffic the list does.

If you prefer the forum format, get on over there and start up a discussion.

--Georgs

Georgs Kolesnikovs
Your host at Trawlers & Trawlering since 1997
http://www.trawlersandtrawlering.com
Your host at TrawlerCrawler.net since 2009
http://www.trawlercrawler.net


> This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is
operated
> only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web
forum
> for a number of reasons. They are:
>
> 1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
> 2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
> 3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
> email only.
>
> The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
> set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only
if
> they so choose.
>
> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
>
> Peter
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Peter,

You asked a serious question, so I will attempt a serious answer. I mean no
personal disrespect to any persons with my observations, following. My
comments are about the "system" that is T&T; a system comprised of interacting
and overlapping human and technological components. I believe my summary is
accurate and reflects reality, but I acknowledge some of my comments may sound
harsh, particularly in email form.

In watching this T&T list operate over the past several years, it seems to me
there is strong resistance to ideas about changing it, and rigid adherence to
"rules" laid down by it's leaders (owners), some of which make only partial
sense. This has driven away some major contributors over time, and that
outcome seems acceptable to list leaders and is tolerated by us, all of us,
the list's users. The design point of this list - defacto, just the standard
of its day - is as a collecting point for posing and responding to random
topics in random order.

Resistance to change is human factors in nature, on the part of both the
people who run the list and those of us who use it; it's not about technology.
Fundamentally, the vast majority of users feel "it's OK." Creating an
effective forum is *very difficult.* To work effectively, a forum has to have
a complete, robust taxonomy. That necessitates a very substantial startup and
learning curve just to determine, organize and codify topic categories. That
could be done here. The data to construct a taxonomy is present in the many
years of archives we have. But there's no interest in doing it. No desire.
There's no vision and little appreciation of how it could be better, and the
intellectual "cost" of entry is high.

I believe you participate in the AGLCA forum, so you know that forum's
taxonomy is not very robust. The vast majority of posts wind up in the
"general" category. Their audience turns over quickly, so users learning a
complex taxonomy is not likely to happen. Developing an effective taxonomy
requires many hours of thoughtful consideration behind the scenes, and
collegial discussion and open mindedness on the part of the leadership with
knowledgeable users. It also requires willingness on the part of users to
learn it and use it. Not sure T&T has either interest. T&T's sole advantage
is it's simplicity of use. Difficulties with searches, archives and posting
pictures are largely accepted and ignored. People just ask the same old
questions again and again, and for the most part, responders are kind enough
and generous enough to simply respond again. If you look at the data (actual
message traffic in our years of archives) you'll see several topics that
routinely come up every few months, including this one, about 6 months ago. A
good search capability would remedy that, but then, individual users would
have to know how to do searches, and many T&T folks proudly assert that they
are not computer literate and intend to stay that way (I believe we've seen it
in this thread already). In fact, computer related topics related to boating
apps have actually been discouraged on this list. I and others have been
advised to "take your Windows question to a Windows forum," even though the
question was unique to an ECS app, or GPS setup, or software hangs. I have an
open question now on searching the T&T archives (not getting hits on keywords
using Google search) that one of the administrators agreed to follow up on. I
have been waiting on that for several weeks, and although many people have
reported the same problem searching the archives, I believe its out-of-sight
and out-of-mind at this point.

Nevertheless, T&T as-is works for a lot of people. I think it has a lot of
value, even with it's severe limitations.

If you want fora, there are plenty out there. Incidentally, I am not
overwhelmingly convinced they're that much better; they just have different
limitations. I didn't personally think much of the seriousness of the
"viaduct, vi not a chicken" response, but in the context of the different
strengths and weaknesses of mail lists vs. fora, it does have merit.

My advice: don't tinker with success.

Jim

Peg and Jim Healy aboard Sanctuary
Currently at Belhaven, NC
Monk 36 Hull #132
MMSI #367042570
AGLCA #3767
MTOA #3436
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Jim,

Thanks for the thoughtful and constructive response. It sure contrasts one
nasty private email I received, presumably not from the welcoming committee.

I guess I'd summarize the collective responses as saying "Yes, we understand
the limitations of a list, but really like the simplicity, and on balance
choose to stick with a list." That's fine, I fully accept it, and hope to
continue to participate in that context. One person said to me "If you don't
like lists then why did you sign up?". To me, it's about content first, and
format second. The content on this list is good - that's why I signed up and
why I continue to participate - even though I think it could be even more
useful in a different format.

Regarding taxonomy, I agree it doesn't go well with any forum or list partly
because they are intended to be free-form. That said, good search
capabilities can make up for a lot of evil in the taxonomy department. In the
forum world, different sites take different approaches to organization, as I'm
sure you know. One, YachtForum.com I think, is so
granularly organized that it's nearly useless. On the other end of the
spectrum (sort of), there is another site unrelated to boats that has taken an
interesting approach. They have a fairly conventional forum structure, but
also have a Wiki "manual" that is evolving nicely, and is a structured, well
organized manual on the subject matter constructed from content from the
forums, creating an organized presentation of the communities collective
wisdom. Anyway, I'm not suggesting T&T do any of this - I just find it
interesting.

OK, back to my stabilizers. There's work to be done and a launch date to
meet.....

Peter


On Apr 28, 2011, at 10:45 AM, Jim Healy wrote:

Peter,

You asked a serious question, so I will attempt a serious answer. I mean no
personal disrespect to any persons with my observations, following. My
comments are about the "system" that is T&T; a system comprised of interacting
and overlapping human and technological components. I believe my summary is
accurate and reflects reality, but I acknowledge some of my comments may sound
harsh, particularly in email form.

In watching this T&T list operate over the past several years, it seems to me
there is strong resistance to ideas about changing it, and rigid adherence to
"rules" laid down by it's leaders (owners), some of which make only partial
sense. This has driven away some major contributors over time, and that
outcome seems acceptable to list leaders and is tolerated by us, all of us,
the list's users. The design point of this list - defacto, just the standard
of its day - is as a collecting point for posing and responding to random
topics in random order.

Resistance to change is human factors in nature, on the part of both the
people who run the list and those of us who use it; it's not about technology.
Fundamentally, the vast majority of users feel "it's OK." Creating an
effective forum is *very difficult.* To work effectively, a forum has to have
a complete, robust taxonomy. That necessitates a very substantial startup and
learning curve just to determine, organize and codify topic categories. That
could be done here. The data to construct a taxonomy is present in the many
years of archives we have. But there's no interest in doing it. No desire.
There's no vision and little appreciation of how it could be better, and the
intellectual "cost" of entry is high.

I believe you participate in the AGLCA forum, so you know that forum's
taxonomy is not very robust. The vast majority of posts wind up in the
"general" category. Their audience turns over quickly, so users learning a
complex taxonomy is not likely to happen. Developing an effective taxonomy
requires many hours of thoughtful consideration behind the scenes, and
collegial discussion and open mindedness on the part of the leadership with
knowledgeable users. It also requires willingness on the part of users to
learn it and use it. Not sure T&T has either interest. T&T's sole advantage
is it's simplicity of use. Difficulties with searches, archives and posting
pictures are largely accepted and ignored. People just ask the same old
questions again and again, and for the most part, responders are kind enough
and generous enough to simply respond again. If you look at the data (actual
message traffic in our years of archives) you'll see several topics that
routinely come up every few months, including this one, about 6 months ago. A
good search capability would remedy that, but then, individual users would
have to know how to do searches, and many T&T folks proudly assert that they
are not computer literate and intend to stay that way (I believe we've seen it
in this thread already). In fact, computer related topics related to boating
apps have actually been discouraged on this list. I and others have been
advised to "take your Windows question to a Windows forum," even though the
question was unique to an ECS app, or GPS setup, or software hangs. I have an
open question now on searching the T&T archives (not getting hits on keywords
using Google search) that one of the administrators agreed to follow up on. I
have been waiting on that for several weeks, and although many people have
reported the same problem searching the archives, I believe its out-of-sight
and out-of-mind at this point.

Nevertheless, T&T as-is works for a lot of people. I think it has a lot of
value, even with it's severe limitations.

If you want fora, there are plenty out there. Incidentally, I am not
overwhelmingly convinced they're that much better; they just have different
limitations. I didn't personally think much of the seriousness of the
"viaduct, vi not a chicken" response, but in the context of the different
strengths and weaknesses of mail lists vs. fora, it does have merit.

My advice: don't tinker with success.

Jim

Peg and Jim Healy aboard Sanctuary
Currently at Belhaven, NC
Monk 36 Hull #132
MMSI #367042570
AGLCA #3767
MTOA #3436
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I too will attempt a serious reply.

Let me first state my qualifications. I own a trawler, and I've been using
this list for over 8 years. I'm certainly not the largest contributor, but
I'm not a total lurker, either. I've subscribed to other mailing lists as
well. I'm also in the software business, and it just so happens that for the
past 21 years I've built collaboration/forum/knowledge management software
(some of you may have used an early product of mine, FirstClass, which still
has several million users). I've also tested many other collaboration
products.

Here's what I've got to say:

Mail lists definitely have pluses and minuses. On the plus side, there's not
much of a learning curve. On the minus side, they tend to pollute your
mailbox. This can be addressed with clever filtering, but that's typically
out of the comfort zone for typical users.

One big advantage of a mail list is that it may be stored locally (on your
computer) and hence kept accessible even when you are disconnected. This was
really important 10 or even 5 years ago, but not so much any more.

Good forum/collaboration software definitely has some advantages as well.
However, even as a vendor of such software I'll say that the advantages tend
to be more obvious when you are in an environment with many, many
simultaneous forums on-the-go (for example, in education you might have a
forum for each course you are enrolled in). For participating in a single
forum, the overhead (having to log in) is not worth the payback.
Now, what both forum software and mail lists are really, really poor at is
converting discussions into knowledge. Hence the endless discussions of 2 vs
20 microns, rules of the road, etc. There no easy way to "save" or "convert"
this information from a thread into permanent knowlege.

The other obvious candidate for knowledge management is a Wiki. This is
great for collating knowledge, but really falls down on the collaboration
side.

This is actually a very active area of R&D in the software world, and in
fact at my last company we built a product that attempted to do this very
thing, albeit in a corporate setting.

So, what should we be doing with T&T? Well, the list as it stands more or
less does the job. However, I'd suggest that you all might want to check out
a new product named "Quora". This is a very cool, very interesting way to
solve the discussion/knowledge problem, and it's totally free. You can sign
up at www.quora.com and just for fun I have created a new question on (what
else) fuel filter micron ratings. Check it out:
http://www.quora.com/When-you-have-two-fuel-filters-on-your-diesel-engine-should-they-both-have-the-same-micron-rating

I have no connection whatsoever to Quora (bummer, since it looks like they
could be the next Facebook) but I do like what they are doing.

Scott Welch
Island Eagle
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This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
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>> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed Marvel Mystery
Oil,
micron filter size, or twin vs. single engine ad nauseum, thus allowing us to
do it all over again.

-- Jim
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I'd like the forum format too. Here's the one Georgs established two
years ago. Hasn't had a lot of traffic lately, unfortunately.

http://trawlercrawler.net/

Richard Cook
New Moon (Bounty 257)



On 4/27/2011 1:39 PM, Peter Hayden wrote:
> This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
> only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
> for a number of reasons. They are:
>
> 1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
> 2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
> 3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
> email only.
>
> The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
> set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
> they so choose.
>
> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
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Viaduct, vi not a chicken???

-----Original Message-----
From: trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+al=
[mailto:trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+al=] On
Behalf Of Peter Hayden
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 15:40
To: trawlers-and- List
Subject: T&T: Why a list and not a forum?

This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
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On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Peter Hayden <> wrote:

> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
>
>
Peter, Peter, many of us are not so young...and change........it is
not so good.

Thanks,
Bob
______________________
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*Yacht MARY KATHRYN*
1977 Hatteras 58 LRC
Lying South River
Annapolis, Maryland
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>With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed Marvel Mystery
Oil, micron filter size, or twin vs. single engine ad nauseum, thus allowing
us to do it all over again.

I participate or have participated in a number of boating forums over the
years. Trust me, the same subjects are discussed every bit as repetitively on
them as on T&T. In fact it's one reason I no longer participate in some of
these forums--- it's only possible to say the same thing so many ways so many
times.

One of the big advantages in my opinion of a forum format is the ability to
include photos in a post. However I would imagine that a forum format and
photos require a lot more server storage space so perhaps they are
considerably more expensive to host than a mailing list.

Another aspect of forums that some people like and some don't is that they
tend to turn into social sites. There are exceptions--- the Grand Banks
Owners forum being one--- but I find most of the boating forums I have
participated in or perused have over time become fairly trite in overall
content as opposed to something like T&T which is more heavily moderated to
keep things on topic. I know some people don't like this degree of moderation
but after seeing what can happen on an unmoderated boating site I think I
prefer the higher level of moderation as practiced on T&T.. Many of the
discussions on some of the forums I'm familiar with are quick to descend into
"I'm right, you're wrong" arguments with little actual merit.

There is a happy medium between a rigidly moderated site and a totally
unmoderated one, but so far I've not seen a forum effectively achieve this
with the exception (in my opinion) of the Grand Banks Owners site (the
IAGBO).

______________________________
C. Marin Faure
GB36-403 (grp) "La Perouse"
Bellingham, Washington
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Just once, I wished a newbie would just come onboard, read the archives, and
realize the forum is like it is because that is the way the owner of the forum
and the members of the forum want it to be.

Remember when it all started and new members would actually inroduce
themselves?

Larry Gregory
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You can find a good and active one (I can't keep up anymore) at
www.trawlerforum.com

Keith

With every passing hour our solar system comes forty-three thousand miles
closer to globular cluster M13 in the constellation Hercules, and still
there are some misfits who continue to insist that there is no such thing as
progress. -- Ransom K. Ferm
___________________
-----Original Message-----


I'd like the forum format too. Here's the one Georgs established two years
ago. Hasn't had a lot of traffic lately, unfortunately.

http://trawlercrawler.net/

Richard Cook
New Moon (Bounty 257)
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Why? Because email its fast and easy. I enjoy the email over the many forums I check out - hit & miss.

P.S. learned more here in six months than a few years on the fancy forums.
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> With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed...
> thus allowing us to do it all over again.

Are you guys kidding me. With a memory like mine, this is the greatest advantage of this list. All of these topics have yet to reach the point where I'm beginning to reatain the information... always something new too, even if you're not new to the list. Personally, I like it this way.

Rudy
Briney Bug, Panama City, Fl
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OK, thanks. Back to Mystery Oil
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From previous discussions, a number of reasons have favoured the mail list

Security.
reduced bandwidth for those who are out actually cruising.
if it ain't broke don't fix it - I've also got a career orientated mail list
where someone decided we needed a Facebook group - nothing happens there or
has for months.
my e-mail client groups messages by topic.

CHeers

Mike Eedy
North Bay ON

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Hayden" <>
To:
>
> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
>
> Peter
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The short answer, Peter and others, is that many people love the email format.
Like about 2,000 subscribers and growing.

I did launch a forum two years at http://www.trawlercrawler.net but it has
never generated the traffic the list does.

If you prefer the forum format, get on over there and start up a discussion.

--Georgs

Georgs Kolesnikovs
Your host at Trawlers & Trawlering since 1997
http://www.trawlersandtrawlering.com
Your host at TrawlerCrawler.net since 2009
http://www.trawlercrawler.net


> This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is
operated
> only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web
forum
> for a number of reasons. They are:
>
> 1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
> 2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
> 3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
> email only.
>
> The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
> set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only
if
> they so choose.
>
> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
>
> Peter
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Peter,

You asked a serious question, so I will attempt a serious answer. I mean no
personal disrespect to any persons with my observations, following. My
comments are about the "system" that is T&T; a system comprised of interacting
and overlapping human and technological components. I believe my summary is
accurate and reflects reality, but I acknowledge some of my comments may sound
harsh, particularly in email form.

In watching this T&T list operate over the past several years, it seems to me
there is strong resistance to ideas about changing it, and rigid adherence to
"rules" laid down by it's leaders (owners), some of which make only partial
sense. This has driven away some major contributors over time, and that
outcome seems acceptable to list leaders and is tolerated by us, all of us,
the list's users. The design point of this list - defacto, just the standard
of its day - is as a collecting point for posing and responding to random
topics in random order.

Resistance to change is human factors in nature, on the part of both the
people who run the list and those of us who use it; it's not about technology.
Fundamentally, the vast majority of users feel "it's OK." Creating an
effective forum is *very difficult.* To work effectively, a forum has to have
a complete, robust taxonomy. That necessitates a very substantial startup and
learning curve just to determine, organize and codify topic categories. That
could be done here. The data to construct a taxonomy is present in the many
years of archives we have. But there's no interest in doing it. No desire.
There's no vision and little appreciation of how it could be better, and the
intellectual "cost" of entry is high.

I believe you participate in the AGLCA forum, so you know that forum's
taxonomy is not very robust. The vast majority of posts wind up in the
"general" category. Their audience turns over quickly, so users learning a
complex taxonomy is not likely to happen. Developing an effective taxonomy
requires many hours of thoughtful consideration behind the scenes, and
collegial discussion and open mindedness on the part of the leadership with
knowledgeable users. It also requires willingness on the part of users to
learn it and use it. Not sure T&T has either interest. T&T's sole advantage
is it's simplicity of use. Difficulties with searches, archives and posting
pictures are largely accepted and ignored. People just ask the same old
questions again and again, and for the most part, responders are kind enough
and generous enough to simply respond again. If you look at the data (actual
message traffic in our years of archives) you'll see several topics that
routinely come up every few months, including this one, about 6 months ago. A
good search capability would remedy that, but then, individual users would
have to know how to do searches, and many T&T folks proudly assert that they
are not computer literate and intend to stay that way (I believe we've seen it
in this thread already). In fact, computer related topics related to boating
apps have actually been discouraged on this list. I and others have been
advised to "take your Windows question to a Windows forum," even though the
question was unique to an ECS app, or GPS setup, or software hangs. I have an
open question now on searching the T&T archives (not getting hits on keywords
using Google search) that one of the administrators agreed to follow up on. I
have been waiting on that for several weeks, and although many people have
reported the same problem searching the archives, I believe its out-of-sight
and out-of-mind at this point.

Nevertheless, T&T as-is works for a lot of people. I think it has a lot of
value, even with it's severe limitations.

If you want fora, there are plenty out there. Incidentally, I am not
overwhelmingly convinced they're that much better; they just have different
limitations. I didn't personally think much of the seriousness of the
"viaduct, vi not a chicken" response, but in the context of the different
strengths and weaknesses of mail lists vs. fora, it does have merit.

My advice: don't tinker with success.

Jim

Peg and Jim Healy aboard Sanctuary
Currently at Belhaven, NC
Monk 36 Hull #132
MMSI #367042570
AGLCA #3767
MTOA #3436
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Jim,

Thanks for the thoughtful and constructive response. It sure contrasts one
nasty private email I received, presumably not from the welcoming committee.

I guess I'd summarize the collective responses as saying "Yes, we understand
the limitations of a list, but really like the simplicity, and on balance
choose to stick with a list." That's fine, I fully accept it, and hope to
continue to participate in that context. One person said to me "If you don't
like lists then why did you sign up?". To me, it's about content first, and
format second. The content on this list is good - that's why I signed up and
why I continue to participate - even though I think it could be even more
useful in a different format.

Regarding taxonomy, I agree it doesn't go well with any forum or list partly
because they are intended to be free-form. That said, good search
capabilities can make up for a lot of evil in the taxonomy department. In the
forum world, different sites take different approaches to organization, as I'm
sure you know. One, YachtForum.com I think, is so
granularly organized that it's nearly useless. On the other end of the
spectrum (sort of), there is another site unrelated to boats that has taken an
interesting approach. They have a fairly conventional forum structure, but
also have a Wiki "manual" that is evolving nicely, and is a structured, well
organized manual on the subject matter constructed from content from the
forums, creating an organized presentation of the communities collective
wisdom. Anyway, I'm not suggesting T&T do any of this - I just find it
interesting.

OK, back to my stabilizers. There's work to be done and a launch date to
meet.....

Peter


On Apr 28, 2011, at 10:45 AM, Jim Healy wrote:

Peter,

You asked a serious question, so I will attempt a serious answer. I mean no
personal disrespect to any persons with my observations, following. My
comments are about the "system" that is T&T; a system comprised of interacting
and overlapping human and technological components. I believe my summary is
accurate and reflects reality, but I acknowledge some of my comments may sound
harsh, particularly in email form.

In watching this T&T list operate over the past several years, it seems to me
there is strong resistance to ideas about changing it, and rigid adherence to
"rules" laid down by it's leaders (owners), some of which make only partial
sense. This has driven away some major contributors over time, and that
outcome seems acceptable to list leaders and is tolerated by us, all of us,
the list's users. The design point of this list - defacto, just the standard
of its day - is as a collecting point for posing and responding to random
topics in random order.

Resistance to change is human factors in nature, on the part of both the
people who run the list and those of us who use it; it's not about technology.
Fundamentally, the vast majority of users feel "it's OK." Creating an
effective forum is *very difficult.* To work effectively, a forum has to have
a complete, robust taxonomy. That necessitates a very substantial startup and
learning curve just to determine, organize and codify topic categories. That
could be done here. The data to construct a taxonomy is present in the many
years of archives we have. But there's no interest in doing it. No desire.
There's no vision and little appreciation of how it could be better, and the
intellectual "cost" of entry is high.

I believe you participate in the AGLCA forum, so you know that forum's
taxonomy is not very robust. The vast majority of posts wind up in the
"general" category. Their audience turns over quickly, so users learning a
complex taxonomy is not likely to happen. Developing an effective taxonomy
requires many hours of thoughtful consideration behind the scenes, and
collegial discussion and open mindedness on the part of the leadership with
knowledgeable users. It also requires willingness on the part of users to
learn it and use it. Not sure T&T has either interest. T&T's sole advantage
is it's simplicity of use. Difficulties with searches, archives and posting
pictures are largely accepted and ignored. People just ask the same old
questions again and again, and for the most part, responders are kind enough
and generous enough to simply respond again. If you look at the data (actual
message traffic in our years of archives) you'll see several topics that
routinely come up every few months, including this one, about 6 months ago. A
good search capability would remedy that, but then, individual users would
have to know how to do searches, and many T&T folks proudly assert that they
are not computer literate and intend to stay that way (I believe we've seen it
in this thread already). In fact, computer related topics related to boating
apps have actually been discouraged on this list. I and others have been
advised to "take your Windows question to a Windows forum," even though the
question was unique to an ECS app, or GPS setup, or software hangs. I have an
open question now on searching the T&T archives (not getting hits on keywords
using Google search) that one of the administrators agreed to follow up on. I
have been waiting on that for several weeks, and although many people have
reported the same problem searching the archives, I believe its out-of-sight
and out-of-mind at this point.

Nevertheless, T&T as-is works for a lot of people. I think it has a lot of
value, even with it's severe limitations.

If you want fora, there are plenty out there. Incidentally, I am not
overwhelmingly convinced they're that much better; they just have different
limitations. I didn't personally think much of the seriousness of the
"viaduct, vi not a chicken" response, but in the context of the different
strengths and weaknesses of mail lists vs. fora, it does have merit.

My advice: don't tinker with success.

Jim

Peg and Jim Healy aboard Sanctuary
Currently at Belhaven, NC
Monk 36 Hull #132
MMSI #367042570
AGLCA #3767
MTOA #3436
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I too will attempt a serious reply.

Let me first state my qualifications. I own a trawler, and I've been using
this list for over 8 years. I'm certainly not the largest contributor, but
I'm not a total lurker, either. I've subscribed to other mailing lists as
well. I'm also in the software business, and it just so happens that for the
past 21 years I've built collaboration/forum/knowledge management software
(some of you may have used an early product of mine, FirstClass, which still
has several million users). I've also tested many other collaboration
products.

Here's what I've got to say:

Mail lists definitely have pluses and minuses. On the plus side, there's not
much of a learning curve. On the minus side, they tend to pollute your
mailbox. This can be addressed with clever filtering, but that's typically
out of the comfort zone for typical users.

One big advantage of a mail list is that it may be stored locally (on your
computer) and hence kept accessible even when you are disconnected. This was
really important 10 or even 5 years ago, but not so much any more.

Good forum/collaboration software definitely has some advantages as well.
However, even as a vendor of such software I'll say that the advantages tend
to be more obvious when you are in an environment with many, many
simultaneous forums on-the-go (for example, in education you might have a
forum for each course you are enrolled in). For participating in a single
forum, the overhead (having to log in) is not worth the payback.
Now, what both forum software and mail lists are really, really poor at is
converting discussions into knowledge. Hence the endless discussions of 2 vs
20 microns, rules of the road, etc. There no easy way to "save" or "convert"
this information from a thread into permanent knowlege.

The other obvious candidate for knowledge management is a Wiki. This is
great for collating knowledge, but really falls down on the collaboration
side.

This is actually a very active area of R&D in the software world, and in
fact at my last company we built a product that attempted to do this very
thing, albeit in a corporate setting.

So, what should we be doing with T&T? Well, the list as it stands more or
less does the job. However, I'd suggest that you all might want to check out
a new product named "Quora". This is a very cool, very interesting way to
solve the discussion/knowledge problem, and it's totally free. You can sign
up at www.quora.com and just for fun I have created a new question on (what
else) fuel filter micron ratings. Check it out:
http://www.quora.com/When-you-have-two-fuel-filters-on-your-diesel-engine-should-they-both-have-the-same-micron-rating

I have no connection whatsoever to Quora (bummer, since it looks like they
could be the next Facebook) but I do like what they are doing.

Scott Welch
Island Eagle
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Georgs: Completely agree. KISS!. Best Regards. Leonard Stern, INDIFFERENCE
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This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
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>> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed Marvel Mystery
Oil,
micron filter size, or twin vs. single engine ad nauseum, thus allowing us to
do it all over again.

-- Jim
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I'd like the forum format too. Here's the one Georgs established two
years ago. Hasn't had a lot of traffic lately, unfortunately.

http://trawlercrawler.net/

Richard Cook
New Moon (Bounty 257)



On 4/27/2011 1:39 PM, Peter Hayden wrote:
> This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
> only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
> for a number of reasons. They are:
>
> 1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
> 2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
> 3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
> email only.
>
> The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
> set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
> they so choose.
>
> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
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Viaduct, vi not a chicken???

-----Original Message-----
From: trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+al=
[mailto:trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+al=] On
Behalf Of Peter Hayden
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 15:40
To: trawlers-and- List
Subject: T&T: Why a list and not a forum?

This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
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On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Peter Hayden <> wrote:

> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
>
>
Peter, Peter, many of us are not so young...and change........it is
not so good.

Thanks,
Bob
______________________
Robert Calhoun Smith Jr
*Yacht MARY KATHRYN*
1977 Hatteras 58 LRC
Lying South River
Annapolis, Maryland
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>With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed Marvel Mystery
Oil, micron filter size, or twin vs. single engine ad nauseum, thus allowing
us to do it all over again.

I participate or have participated in a number of boating forums over the
years. Trust me, the same subjects are discussed every bit as repetitively on
them as on T&T. In fact it's one reason I no longer participate in some of
these forums--- it's only possible to say the same thing so many ways so many
times.

One of the big advantages in my opinion of a forum format is the ability to
include photos in a post. However I would imagine that a forum format and
photos require a lot more server storage space so perhaps they are
considerably more expensive to host than a mailing list.

Another aspect of forums that some people like and some don't is that they
tend to turn into social sites. There are exceptions--- the Grand Banks
Owners forum being one--- but I find most of the boating forums I have
participated in or perused have over time become fairly trite in overall
content as opposed to something like T&T which is more heavily moderated to
keep things on topic. I know some people don't like this degree of moderation
but after seeing what can happen on an unmoderated boating site I think I
prefer the higher level of moderation as practiced on T&T.. Many of the
discussions on some of the forums I'm familiar with are quick to descend into
"I'm right, you're wrong" arguments with little actual merit.

There is a happy medium between a rigidly moderated site and a totally
unmoderated one, but so far I've not seen a forum effectively achieve this
with the exception (in my opinion) of the Grand Banks Owners site (the
IAGBO).

______________________________
C. Marin Faure
GB36-403 (grp) "La Perouse"
Bellingham, Washington
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Just once, I wished a newbie would just come onboard, read the archives, and
realize the forum is like it is because that is the way the owner of the forum
and the members of the forum want it to be.

Remember when it all started and new members would actually inroduce
themselves?

Larry Gregory
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You can find a good and active one (I can't keep up anymore) at
www.trawlerforum.com

Keith

With every passing hour our solar system comes forty-three thousand miles
closer to globular cluster M13 in the constellation Hercules, and still
there are some misfits who continue to insist that there is no such thing as
progress. -- Ransom K. Ferm
___________________
-----Original Message-----


I'd like the forum format too. Here's the one Georgs established two years
ago. Hasn't had a lot of traffic lately, unfortunately.

http://trawlercrawler.net/

Richard Cook
New Moon (Bounty 257)
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Why? Because email its fast and easy. I enjoy the email over the many forums I check out - hit & miss.

P.S. learned more here in six months than a few years on the fancy forums.
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)
> With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed...
> thus allowing us to do it all over again.

Are you guys kidding me. With a memory like mine, this is the greatest advantage of this list. All of these topics have yet to reach the point where I'm beginning to reatain the information... always something new too, even if you're not new to the list. Personally, I like it this way.

Rudy
Briney Bug, Panama City, Fl
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OK, thanks. Back to Mystery Oil
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From previous discussions, a number of reasons have favoured the mail list

Security.
reduced bandwidth for those who are out actually cruising.
if it ain't broke don't fix it - I've also got a career orientated mail list
where someone decided we needed a Facebook group - nothing happens there or
has for months.
my e-mail client groups messages by topic.

CHeers

Mike Eedy
North Bay ON

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Hayden" <>
To:
>
> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
>
> Peter
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The short answer, Peter and others, is that many people love the email format.
Like about 2,000 subscribers and growing.

I did launch a forum two years at http://www.trawlercrawler.net but it has
never generated the traffic the list does.

If you prefer the forum format, get on over there and start up a discussion.

--Georgs

Georgs Kolesnikovs
Your host at Trawlers & Trawlering since 1997
http://www.trawlersandtrawlering.com
Your host at TrawlerCrawler.net since 2009
http://www.trawlercrawler.net


> This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is
operated
> only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web
forum
> for a number of reasons. They are:
>
> 1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
> 2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
> 3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
> email only.
>
> The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
> set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only
if
> they so choose.
>
> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
>
> Peter
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Peter,

You asked a serious question, so I will attempt a serious answer. I mean no
personal disrespect to any persons with my observations, following. My
comments are about the "system" that is T&T; a system comprised of interacting
and overlapping human and technological components. I believe my summary is
accurate and reflects reality, but I acknowledge some of my comments may sound
harsh, particularly in email form.

In watching this T&T list operate over the past several years, it seems to me
there is strong resistance to ideas about changing it, and rigid adherence to
"rules" laid down by it's leaders (owners), some of which make only partial
sense. This has driven away some major contributors over time, and that
outcome seems acceptable to list leaders and is tolerated by us, all of us,
the list's users. The design point of this list - defacto, just the standard
of its day - is as a collecting point for posing and responding to random
topics in random order.

Resistance to change is human factors in nature, on the part of both the
people who run the list and those of us who use it; it's not about technology.
Fundamentally, the vast majority of users feel "it's OK." Creating an
effective forum is *very difficult.* To work effectively, a forum has to have
a complete, robust taxonomy. That necessitates a very substantial startup and
learning curve just to determine, organize and codify topic categories. That
could be done here. The data to construct a taxonomy is present in the many
years of archives we have. But there's no interest in doing it. No desire.
There's no vision and little appreciation of how it could be better, and the
intellectual "cost" of entry is high.

I believe you participate in the AGLCA forum, so you know that forum's
taxonomy is not very robust. The vast majority of posts wind up in the
"general" category. Their audience turns over quickly, so users learning a
complex taxonomy is not likely to happen. Developing an effective taxonomy
requires many hours of thoughtful consideration behind the scenes, and
collegial discussion and open mindedness on the part of the leadership with
knowledgeable users. It also requires willingness on the part of users to
learn it and use it. Not sure T&T has either interest. T&T's sole advantage
is it's simplicity of use. Difficulties with searches, archives and posting
pictures are largely accepted and ignored. People just ask the same old
questions again and again, and for the most part, responders are kind enough
and generous enough to simply respond again. If you look at the data (actual
message traffic in our years of archives) you'll see several topics that
routinely come up every few months, including this one, about 6 months ago. A
good search capability would remedy that, but then, individual users would
have to know how to do searches, and many T&T folks proudly assert that they
are not computer literate and intend to stay that way (I believe we've seen it
in this thread already). In fact, computer related topics related to boating
apps have actually been discouraged on this list. I and others have been
advised to "take your Windows question to a Windows forum," even though the
question was unique to an ECS app, or GPS setup, or software hangs. I have an
open question now on searching the T&T archives (not getting hits on keywords
using Google search) that one of the administrators agreed to follow up on. I
have been waiting on that for several weeks, and although many people have
reported the same problem searching the archives, I believe its out-of-sight
and out-of-mind at this point.

Nevertheless, T&T as-is works for a lot of people. I think it has a lot of
value, even with it's severe limitations.

If you want fora, there are plenty out there. Incidentally, I am not
overwhelmingly convinced they're that much better; they just have different
limitations. I didn't personally think much of the seriousness of the
"viaduct, vi not a chicken" response, but in the context of the different
strengths and weaknesses of mail lists vs. fora, it does have merit.

My advice: don't tinker with success.

Jim

Peg and Jim Healy aboard Sanctuary
Currently at Belhaven, NC
Monk 36 Hull #132
MMSI #367042570
AGLCA #3767
MTOA #3436
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Jim,

Thanks for the thoughtful and constructive response. It sure contrasts one
nasty private email I received, presumably not from the welcoming committee.

I guess I'd summarize the collective responses as saying "Yes, we understand
the limitations of a list, but really like the simplicity, and on balance
choose to stick with a list." That's fine, I fully accept it, and hope to
continue to participate in that context. One person said to me "If you don't
like lists then why did you sign up?". To me, it's about content first, and
format second. The content on this list is good - that's why I signed up and
why I continue to participate - even though I think it could be even more
useful in a different format.

Regarding taxonomy, I agree it doesn't go well with any forum or list partly
because they are intended to be free-form. That said, good search
capabilities can make up for a lot of evil in the taxonomy department. In the
forum world, different sites take different approaches to organization, as I'm
sure you know. One, YachtForum.com I think, is so
granularly organized that it's nearly useless. On the other end of the
spectrum (sort of), there is another site unrelated to boats that has taken an
interesting approach. They have a fairly conventional forum structure, but
also have a Wiki "manual" that is evolving nicely, and is a structured, well
organized manual on the subject matter constructed from content from the
forums, creating an organized presentation of the communities collective
wisdom. Anyway, I'm not suggesting T&T do any of this - I just find it
interesting.

OK, back to my stabilizers. There's work to be done and a launch date to
meet.....

Peter


On Apr 28, 2011, at 10:45 AM, Jim Healy wrote:

Peter,

You asked a serious question, so I will attempt a serious answer. I mean no
personal disrespect to any persons with my observations, following. My
comments are about the "system" that is T&T; a system comprised of interacting
and overlapping human and technological components. I believe my summary is
accurate and reflects reality, but I acknowledge some of my comments may sound
harsh, particularly in email form.

In watching this T&T list operate over the past several years, it seems to me
there is strong resistance to ideas about changing it, and rigid adherence to
"rules" laid down by it's leaders (owners), some of which make only partial
sense. This has driven away some major contributors over time, and that
outcome seems acceptable to list leaders and is tolerated by us, all of us,
the list's users. The design point of this list - defacto, just the standard
of its day - is as a collecting point for posing and responding to random
topics in random order.

Resistance to change is human factors in nature, on the part of both the
people who run the list and those of us who use it; it's not about technology.
Fundamentally, the vast majority of users feel "it's OK." Creating an
effective forum is *very difficult.* To work effectively, a forum has to have
a complete, robust taxonomy. That necessitates a very substantial startup and
learning curve just to determine, organize and codify topic categories. That
could be done here. The data to construct a taxonomy is present in the many
years of archives we have. But there's no interest in doing it. No desire.
There's no vision and little appreciation of how it could be better, and the
intellectual "cost" of entry is high.

I believe you participate in the AGLCA forum, so you know that forum's
taxonomy is not very robust. The vast majority of posts wind up in the
"general" category. Their audience turns over quickly, so users learning a
complex taxonomy is not likely to happen. Developing an effective taxonomy
requires many hours of thoughtful consideration behind the scenes, and
collegial discussion and open mindedness on the part of the leadership with
knowledgeable users. It also requires willingness on the part of users to
learn it and use it. Not sure T&T has either interest. T&T's sole advantage
is it's simplicity of use. Difficulties with searches, archives and posting
pictures are largely accepted and ignored. People just ask the same old
questions again and again, and for the most part, responders are kind enough
and generous enough to simply respond again. If you look at the data (actual
message traffic in our years of archives) you'll see several topics that
routinely come up every few months, including this one, about 6 months ago. A
good search capability would remedy that, but then, individual users would
have to know how to do searches, and many T&T folks proudly assert that they
are not computer literate and intend to stay that way (I believe we've seen it
in this thread already). In fact, computer related topics related to boating
apps have actually been discouraged on this list. I and others have been
advised to "take your Windows question to a Windows forum," even though the
question was unique to an ECS app, or GPS setup, or software hangs. I have an
open question now on searching the T&T archives (not getting hits on keywords
using Google search) that one of the administrators agreed to follow up on. I
have been waiting on that for several weeks, and although many people have
reported the same problem searching the archives, I believe its out-of-sight
and out-of-mind at this point.

Nevertheless, T&T as-is works for a lot of people. I think it has a lot of
value, even with it's severe limitations.

If you want fora, there are plenty out there. Incidentally, I am not
overwhelmingly convinced they're that much better; they just have different
limitations. I didn't personally think much of the seriousness of the
"viaduct, vi not a chicken" response, but in the context of the different
strengths and weaknesses of mail lists vs. fora, it does have merit.

My advice: don't tinker with success.

Jim

Peg and Jim Healy aboard Sanctuary
Currently at Belhaven, NC
Monk 36 Hull #132
MMSI #367042570
AGLCA #3767
MTOA #3436
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I too will attempt a serious reply.

Let me first state my qualifications. I own a trawler, and I've been using
this list for over 8 years. I'm certainly not the largest contributor, but
I'm not a total lurker, either. I've subscribed to other mailing lists as
well. I'm also in the software business, and it just so happens that for the
past 21 years I've built collaboration/forum/knowledge management software
(some of you may have used an early product of mine, FirstClass, which still
has several million users). I've also tested many other collaboration
products.

Here's what I've got to say:

Mail lists definitely have pluses and minuses. On the plus side, there's not
much of a learning curve. On the minus side, they tend to pollute your
mailbox. This can be addressed with clever filtering, but that's typically
out of the comfort zone for typical users.

One big advantage of a mail list is that it may be stored locally (on your
computer) and hence kept accessible even when you are disconnected. This was
really important 10 or even 5 years ago, but not so much any more.

Good forum/collaboration software definitely has some advantages as well.
However, even as a vendor of such software I'll say that the advantages tend
to be more obvious when you are in an environment with many, many
simultaneous forums on-the-go (for example, in education you might have a
forum for each course you are enrolled in). For participating in a single
forum, the overhead (having to log in) is not worth the payback.
Now, what both forum software and mail lists are really, really poor at is
converting discussions into knowledge. Hence the endless discussions of 2 vs
20 microns, rules of the road, etc. There no easy way to "save" or "convert"
this information from a thread into permanent knowlege.

The other obvious candidate for knowledge management is a Wiki. This is
great for collating knowledge, but really falls down on the collaboration
side.

This is actually a very active area of R&D in the software world, and in
fact at my last company we built a product that attempted to do this very
thing, albeit in a corporate setting.

So, what should we be doing with T&T? Well, the list as it stands more or
less does the job. However, I'd suggest that you all might want to check out
a new product named "Quora". This is a very cool, very interesting way to
solve the discussion/knowledge problem, and it's totally free. You can sign
up at www.quora.com and just for fun I have created a new question on (what
else) fuel filter micron ratings. Check it out:
http://www.quora.com/When-you-have-two-fuel-filters-on-your-diesel-engine-should-they-both-have-the-same-micron-rating

I have no connection whatsoever to Quora (bummer, since it looks like they
could be the next Facebook) but I do like what they are doing.

Scott Welch
Island Eagle
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Georgs: Completely agree. KISS!. Best Regards. Leonard Stern, INDIFFERENCE
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On 28/04/2011 18:43, Peter Hayden wrote:
> Thanks for the thoughtful and constructive response. It sure contrasts one
> nasty private email I received, presumably not from the welcoming committee.

Peter,

I'm sorry that you've received unpleasant emails, this place is normally
quite friendly.
I think that the 'list' format of T&T serves a need, if it didn't, like
other internet ventures that are past their sell by date, it would
wither and die. There is one very succesful forum with at least a small
part of it given over to motor cruisers 'Cruisers Forum'.
George also started a Forum but it seems to be largely unsuccessful in
attracting a contributing audience. I'm of the mind that says 'don't
fix it if it ain't broke'. Of course, the net being open to everyone,
you could start your own venture.

Paige
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This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
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>> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed Marvel Mystery
Oil,
micron filter size, or twin vs. single engine ad nauseum, thus allowing us to
do it all over again.

-- Jim
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I'd like the forum format too. Here's the one Georgs established two
years ago. Hasn't had a lot of traffic lately, unfortunately.

http://trawlercrawler.net/

Richard Cook
New Moon (Bounty 257)



On 4/27/2011 1:39 PM, Peter Hayden wrote:
> This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
> only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
> for a number of reasons. They are:
>
> 1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
> 2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
> 3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
> email only.
>
> The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
> set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
> they so choose.
>
> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
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Viaduct, vi not a chicken???

-----Original Message-----
From: trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+al=
[mailto:trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+al=] On
Behalf Of Peter Hayden
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 15:40
To: trawlers-and- List
Subject: T&T: Why a list and not a forum?

This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
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On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Peter Hayden <> wrote:

> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
>
>
Peter, Peter, many of us are not so young...and change........it is
not so good.

Thanks,
Bob
______________________
Robert Calhoun Smith Jr
*Yacht MARY KATHRYN*
1977 Hatteras 58 LRC
Lying South River
Annapolis, Maryland
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>With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed Marvel Mystery
Oil, micron filter size, or twin vs. single engine ad nauseum, thus allowing
us to do it all over again.

I participate or have participated in a number of boating forums over the
years. Trust me, the same subjects are discussed every bit as repetitively on
them as on T&T. In fact it's one reason I no longer participate in some of
these forums--- it's only possible to say the same thing so many ways so many
times.

One of the big advantages in my opinion of a forum format is the ability to
include photos in a post. However I would imagine that a forum format and
photos require a lot more server storage space so perhaps they are
considerably more expensive to host than a mailing list.

Another aspect of forums that some people like and some don't is that they
tend to turn into social sites. There are exceptions--- the Grand Banks
Owners forum being one--- but I find most of the boating forums I have
participated in or perused have over time become fairly trite in overall
content as opposed to something like T&T which is more heavily moderated to
keep things on topic. I know some people don't like this degree of moderation
but after seeing what can happen on an unmoderated boating site I think I
prefer the higher level of moderation as practiced on T&T.. Many of the
discussions on some of the forums I'm familiar with are quick to descend into
"I'm right, you're wrong" arguments with little actual merit.

There is a happy medium between a rigidly moderated site and a totally
unmoderated one, but so far I've not seen a forum effectively achieve this
with the exception (in my opinion) of the Grand Banks Owners site (the
IAGBO).

______________________________
C. Marin Faure
GB36-403 (grp) "La Perouse"
Bellingham, Washington
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Just once, I wished a newbie would just come onboard, read the archives, and
realize the forum is like it is because that is the way the owner of the forum
and the members of the forum want it to be.

Remember when it all started and new members would actually inroduce
themselves?

Larry Gregory
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You can find a good and active one (I can't keep up anymore) at
www.trawlerforum.com

Keith

With every passing hour our solar system comes forty-three thousand miles
closer to globular cluster M13 in the constellation Hercules, and still
there are some misfits who continue to insist that there is no such thing as
progress. -- Ransom K. Ferm
___________________
-----Original Message-----


I'd like the forum format too. Here's the one Georgs established two years
ago. Hasn't had a lot of traffic lately, unfortunately.

http://trawlercrawler.net/

Richard Cook
New Moon (Bounty 257)
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Why? Because email its fast and easy. I enjoy the email over the many forums I check out - hit & miss.

P.S. learned more here in six months than a few years on the fancy forums.
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> With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed...
> thus allowing us to do it all over again.

Are you guys kidding me. With a memory like mine, this is the greatest advantage of this list. All of these topics have yet to reach the point where I'm beginning to reatain the information... always something new too, even if you're not new to the list. Personally, I like it this way.

Rudy
Briney Bug, Panama City, Fl
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)
OK, thanks. Back to Mystery Oil
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From previous discussions, a number of reasons have favoured the mail list

Security.
reduced bandwidth for those who are out actually cruising.
if it ain't broke don't fix it - I've also got a career orientated mail list
where someone decided we needed a Facebook group - nothing happens there or
has for months.
my e-mail client groups messages by topic.

CHeers

Mike Eedy
North Bay ON

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Hayden" <>
To:
>
> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
>
> Peter
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The short answer, Peter and others, is that many people love the email format.
Like about 2,000 subscribers and growing.

I did launch a forum two years at http://www.trawlercrawler.net but it has
never generated the traffic the list does.

If you prefer the forum format, get on over there and start up a discussion.

--Georgs

Georgs Kolesnikovs
Your host at Trawlers & Trawlering since 1997
http://www.trawlersandtrawlering.com
Your host at TrawlerCrawler.net since 2009
http://www.trawlercrawler.net


> This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is
operated
> only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web
forum
> for a number of reasons. They are:
>
> 1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
> 2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
> 3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
> email only.
>
> The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
> set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only
if
> they so choose.
>
> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
>
> Peter
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Peter,

You asked a serious question, so I will attempt a serious answer. I mean no
personal disrespect to any persons with my observations, following. My
comments are about the "system" that is T&T; a system comprised of interacting
and overlapping human and technological components. I believe my summary is
accurate and reflects reality, but I acknowledge some of my comments may sound
harsh, particularly in email form.

In watching this T&T list operate over the past several years, it seems to me
there is strong resistance to ideas about changing it, and rigid adherence to
"rules" laid down by it's leaders (owners), some of which make only partial
sense. This has driven away some major contributors over time, and that
outcome seems acceptable to list leaders and is tolerated by us, all of us,
the list's users. The design point of this list - defacto, just the standard
of its day - is as a collecting point for posing and responding to random
topics in random order.

Resistance to change is human factors in nature, on the part of both the
people who run the list and those of us who use it; it's not about technology.
Fundamentally, the vast majority of users feel "it's OK." Creating an
effective forum is *very difficult.* To work effectively, a forum has to have
a complete, robust taxonomy. That necessitates a very substantial startup and
learning curve just to determine, organize and codify topic categories. That
could be done here. The data to construct a taxonomy is present in the many
years of archives we have. But there's no interest in doing it. No desire.
There's no vision and little appreciation of how it could be better, and the
intellectual "cost" of entry is high.

I believe you participate in the AGLCA forum, so you know that forum's
taxonomy is not very robust. The vast majority of posts wind up in the
"general" category. Their audience turns over quickly, so users learning a
complex taxonomy is not likely to happen. Developing an effective taxonomy
requires many hours of thoughtful consideration behind the scenes, and
collegial discussion and open mindedness on the part of the leadership with
knowledgeable users. It also requires willingness on the part of users to
learn it and use it. Not sure T&T has either interest. T&T's sole advantage
is it's simplicity of use. Difficulties with searches, archives and posting
pictures are largely accepted and ignored. People just ask the same old
questions again and again, and for the most part, responders are kind enough
and generous enough to simply respond again. If you look at the data (actual
message traffic in our years of archives) you'll see several topics that
routinely come up every few months, including this one, about 6 months ago. A
good search capability would remedy that, but then, individual users would
have to know how to do searches, and many T&T folks proudly assert that they
are not computer literate and intend to stay that way (I believe we've seen it
in this thread already). In fact, computer related topics related to boating
apps have actually been discouraged on this list. I and others have been
advised to "take your Windows question to a Windows forum," even though the
question was unique to an ECS app, or GPS setup, or software hangs. I have an
open question now on searching the T&T archives (not getting hits on keywords
using Google search) that one of the administrators agreed to follow up on. I
have been waiting on that for several weeks, and although many people have
reported the same problem searching the archives, I believe its out-of-sight
and out-of-mind at this point.

Nevertheless, T&T as-is works for a lot of people. I think it has a lot of
value, even with it's severe limitations.

If you want fora, there are plenty out there. Incidentally, I am not
overwhelmingly convinced they're that much better; they just have different
limitations. I didn't personally think much of the seriousness of the
"viaduct, vi not a chicken" response, but in the context of the different
strengths and weaknesses of mail lists vs. fora, it does have merit.

My advice: don't tinker with success.

Jim

Peg and Jim Healy aboard Sanctuary
Currently at Belhaven, NC
Monk 36 Hull #132
MMSI #367042570
AGLCA #3767
MTOA #3436
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Jim,

Thanks for the thoughtful and constructive response. It sure contrasts one
nasty private email I received, presumably not from the welcoming committee.

I guess I'd summarize the collective responses as saying "Yes, we understand
the limitations of a list, but really like the simplicity, and on balance
choose to stick with a list." That's fine, I fully accept it, and hope to
continue to participate in that context. One person said to me "If you don't
like lists then why did you sign up?". To me, it's about content first, and
format second. The content on this list is good - that's why I signed up and
why I continue to participate - even though I think it could be even more
useful in a different format.

Regarding taxonomy, I agree it doesn't go well with any forum or list partly
because they are intended to be free-form. That said, good search
capabilities can make up for a lot of evil in the taxonomy department. In the
forum world, different sites take different approaches to organization, as I'm
sure you know. One, YachtForum.com I think, is so
granularly organized that it's nearly useless. On the other end of the
spectrum (sort of), there is another site unrelated to boats that has taken an
interesting approach. They have a fairly conventional forum structure, but
also have a Wiki "manual" that is evolving nicely, and is a structured, well
organized manual on the subject matter constructed from content from the
forums, creating an organized presentation of the communities collective
wisdom. Anyway, I'm not suggesting T&T do any of this - I just find it
interesting.

OK, back to my stabilizers. There's work to be done and a launch date to
meet.....

Peter


On Apr 28, 2011, at 10:45 AM, Jim Healy wrote:

Peter,

You asked a serious question, so I will attempt a serious answer. I mean no
personal disrespect to any persons with my observations, following. My
comments are about the "system" that is T&T; a system comprised of interacting
and overlapping human and technological components. I believe my summary is
accurate and reflects reality, but I acknowledge some of my comments may sound
harsh, particularly in email form.

In watching this T&T list operate over the past several years, it seems to me
there is strong resistance to ideas about changing it, and rigid adherence to
"rules" laid down by it's leaders (owners), some of which make only partial
sense. This has driven away some major contributors over time, and that
outcome seems acceptable to list leaders and is tolerated by us, all of us,
the list's users. The design point of this list - defacto, just the standard
of its day - is as a collecting point for posing and responding to random
topics in random order.

Resistance to change is human factors in nature, on the part of both the
people who run the list and those of us who use it; it's not about technology.
Fundamentally, the vast majority of users feel "it's OK." Creating an
effective forum is *very difficult.* To work effectively, a forum has to have
a complete, robust taxonomy. That necessitates a very substantial startup and
learning curve just to determine, organize and codify topic categories. That
could be done here. The data to construct a taxonomy is present in the many
years of archives we have. But there's no interest in doing it. No desire.
There's no vision and little appreciation of how it could be better, and the
intellectual "cost" of entry is high.

I believe you participate in the AGLCA forum, so you know that forum's
taxonomy is not very robust. The vast majority of posts wind up in the
"general" category. Their audience turns over quickly, so users learning a
complex taxonomy is not likely to happen. Developing an effective taxonomy
requires many hours of thoughtful consideration behind the scenes, and
collegial discussion and open mindedness on the part of the leadership with
knowledgeable users. It also requires willingness on the part of users to
learn it and use it. Not sure T&T has either interest. T&T's sole advantage
is it's simplicity of use. Difficulties with searches, archives and posting
pictures are largely accepted and ignored. People just ask the same old
questions again and again, and for the most part, responders are kind enough
and generous enough to simply respond again. If you look at the data (actual
message traffic in our years of archives) you'll see several topics that
routinely come up every few months, including this one, about 6 months ago. A
good search capability would remedy that, but then, individual users would
have to know how to do searches, and many T&T folks proudly assert that they
are not computer literate and intend to stay that way (I believe we've seen it
in this thread already). In fact, computer related topics related to boating
apps have actually been discouraged on this list. I and others have been
advised to "take your Windows question to a Windows forum," even though the
question was unique to an ECS app, or GPS setup, or software hangs. I have an
open question now on searching the T&T archives (not getting hits on keywords
using Google search) that one of the administrators agreed to follow up on. I
have been waiting on that for several weeks, and although many people have
reported the same problem searching the archives, I believe its out-of-sight
and out-of-mind at this point.

Nevertheless, T&T as-is works for a lot of people. I think it has a lot of
value, even with it's severe limitations.

If you want fora, there are plenty out there. Incidentally, I am not
overwhelmingly convinced they're that much better; they just have different
limitations. I didn't personally think much of the seriousness of the
"viaduct, vi not a chicken" response, but in the context of the different
strengths and weaknesses of mail lists vs. fora, it does have merit.

My advice: don't tinker with success.

Jim

Peg and Jim Healy aboard Sanctuary
Currently at Belhaven, NC
Monk 36 Hull #132
MMSI #367042570
AGLCA #3767
MTOA #3436
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I too will attempt a serious reply.

Let me first state my qualifications. I own a trawler, and I've been using
this list for over 8 years. I'm certainly not the largest contributor, but
I'm not a total lurker, either. I've subscribed to other mailing lists as
well. I'm also in the software business, and it just so happens that for the
past 21 years I've built collaboration/forum/knowledge management software
(some of you may have used an early product of mine, FirstClass, which still
has several million users). I've also tested many other collaboration
products.

Here's what I've got to say:

Mail lists definitely have pluses and minuses. On the plus side, there's not
much of a learning curve. On the minus side, they tend to pollute your
mailbox. This can be addressed with clever filtering, but that's typically
out of the comfort zone for typical users.

One big advantage of a mail list is that it may be stored locally (on your
computer) and hence kept accessible even when you are disconnected. This was
really important 10 or even 5 years ago, but not so much any more.

Good forum/collaboration software definitely has some advantages as well.
However, even as a vendor of such software I'll say that the advantages tend
to be more obvious when you are in an environment with many, many
simultaneous forums on-the-go (for example, in education you might have a
forum for each course you are enrolled in). For participating in a single
forum, the overhead (having to log in) is not worth the payback.
Now, what both forum software and mail lists are really, really poor at is
converting discussions into knowledge. Hence the endless discussions of 2 vs
20 microns, rules of the road, etc. There no easy way to "save" or "convert"
this information from a thread into permanent knowlege.

The other obvious candidate for knowledge management is a Wiki. This is
great for collating knowledge, but really falls down on the collaboration
side.

This is actually a very active area of R&D in the software world, and in
fact at my last company we built a product that attempted to do this very
thing, albeit in a corporate setting.

So, what should we be doing with T&T? Well, the list as it stands more or
less does the job. However, I'd suggest that you all might want to check out
a new product named "Quora". This is a very cool, very interesting way to
solve the discussion/knowledge problem, and it's totally free. You can sign
up at www.quora.com and just for fun I have created a new question on (what
else) fuel filter micron ratings. Check it out:
http://www.quora.com/When-you-have-two-fuel-filters-on-your-diesel-engine-should-they-both-have-the-same-micron-rating

I have no connection whatsoever to Quora (bummer, since it looks like they
could be the next Facebook) but I do like what they are doing.

Scott Welch
Island Eagle
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Georgs: Completely agree. KISS!. Best Regards. Leonard Stern, INDIFFERENCE
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On 28/04/2011 18:43, Peter Hayden wrote:
> Thanks for the thoughtful and constructive response. It sure contrasts one
> nasty private email I received, presumably not from the welcoming committee.

Peter,

I'm sorry that you've received unpleasant emails, this place is normally
quite friendly.
I think that the 'list' format of T&T serves a need, if it didn't, like
other internet ventures that are past their sell by date, it would
wither and die. There is one very succesful forum with at least a small
part of it given over to motor cruisers 'Cruisers Forum'.
George also started a Forum but it seems to be largely unsuccessful in
attracting a contributing audience. I'm of the mind that says 'don't
fix it if it ain't broke'. Of course, the net being open to everyone,
you could start your own venture.

Paige
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No worries about the nasty emails - I've been called way worse :)

Yes, I've found Cruisers Forum and find it quite good. That's where I've
started a thread on the installation of stabilizers on my boat. There are
lots of pictures, so it's a good venue. I've found others too, including the
Great Loop forum, the Grand Banks Owners Association forum, and others. It's
great that so many are available, each with its own strengths and weaknesses.

Starting another forum is not something I'll do. I actually think the overall
boating dialogue would benefit from consolidation of forums and lists, not
proliferation of more. Too many lack critical mass of participation and
dialogue. It sounds like that's what happened to trawlerforum.

On Apr 28, 2011, at 8:12 PM, Paige wrote:

> On 28/04/2011 18:43, Peter Hayden wrote:
>> Thanks for the thoughtful and constructive response. It sure contrasts
one
>> nasty private email I received, presumably not from the welcoming
committee.
>
> Peter,
>
> I'm sorry that you've received unpleasant emails, this place is normally
> quite friendly.
> I think that the 'list' format of T&T serves a need, if it didn't, like
> other internet ventures that are past their sell by date, it would
> wither and die. There is one very succesful forum with at least a small
> part of it given over to motor cruisers 'Cruisers Forum'.
> George also started a Forum but it seems to be largely unsuccessful in
> attracting a contributing audience. I'm of the mind that says 'don't
> fix it if it ain't broke'. Of course, the net being open to everyone,
> you could start your own venture.
>
> Paige
> _______________________________________________
> http://lists.samurai.com/mailman/listinfo/trawlers-and-trawlering
>
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>
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> Productions. Unauthorized use is prohibited.
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This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
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>> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed Marvel Mystery
Oil,
micron filter size, or twin vs. single engine ad nauseum, thus allowing us to
do it all over again.

-- Jim
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I'd like the forum format too. Here's the one Georgs established two
years ago. Hasn't had a lot of traffic lately, unfortunately.

http://trawlercrawler.net/

Richard Cook
New Moon (Bounty 257)



On 4/27/2011 1:39 PM, Peter Hayden wrote:
> This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
> only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
> for a number of reasons. They are:
>
> 1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
> 2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
> 3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
> email only.
>
> The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
> set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
> they so choose.
>
> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
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Viaduct, vi not a chicken???

-----Original Message-----
From: trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+al=
[mailto:trawlers-and-trawlering-bounces+al=] On
Behalf Of Peter Hayden
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 15:40
To: trawlers-and- List
Subject: T&T: Why a list and not a forum?

This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is operated
only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web forum
for a number of reasons. They are:

1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
email only.

The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only if
they so choose.

I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?

Peter
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On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Peter Hayden <> wrote:

> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
>
>
Peter, Peter, many of us are not so young...and change........it is
not so good.

Thanks,
Bob
______________________
Robert Calhoun Smith Jr
*Yacht MARY KATHRYN*
1977 Hatteras 58 LRC
Lying South River
Annapolis, Maryland
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>With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed Marvel Mystery
Oil, micron filter size, or twin vs. single engine ad nauseum, thus allowing
us to do it all over again.

I participate or have participated in a number of boating forums over the
years. Trust me, the same subjects are discussed every bit as repetitively on
them as on T&T. In fact it's one reason I no longer participate in some of
these forums--- it's only possible to say the same thing so many ways so many
times.

One of the big advantages in my opinion of a forum format is the ability to
include photos in a post. However I would imagine that a forum format and
photos require a lot more server storage space so perhaps they are
considerably more expensive to host than a mailing list.

Another aspect of forums that some people like and some don't is that they
tend to turn into social sites. There are exceptions--- the Grand Banks
Owners forum being one--- but I find most of the boating forums I have
participated in or perused have over time become fairly trite in overall
content as opposed to something like T&T which is more heavily moderated to
keep things on topic. I know some people don't like this degree of moderation
but after seeing what can happen on an unmoderated boating site I think I
prefer the higher level of moderation as practiced on T&T.. Many of the
discussions on some of the forums I'm familiar with are quick to descend into
"I'm right, you're wrong" arguments with little actual merit.

There is a happy medium between a rigidly moderated site and a totally
unmoderated one, but so far I've not seen a forum effectively achieve this
with the exception (in my opinion) of the Grand Banks Owners site (the
IAGBO).

______________________________
C. Marin Faure
GB36-403 (grp) "La Perouse"
Bellingham, Washington
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Just once, I wished a newbie would just come onboard, read the archives, and
realize the forum is like it is because that is the way the owner of the forum
and the members of the forum want it to be.

Remember when it all started and new members would actually inroduce
themselves?

Larry Gregory
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You can find a good and active one (I can't keep up anymore) at
www.trawlerforum.com

Keith

With every passing hour our solar system comes forty-three thousand miles
closer to globular cluster M13 in the constellation Hercules, and still
there are some misfits who continue to insist that there is no such thing as
progress. -- Ransom K. Ferm
___________________
-----Original Message-----


I'd like the forum format too. Here's the one Georgs established two years
ago. Hasn't had a lot of traffic lately, unfortunately.

http://trawlercrawler.net/

Richard Cook
New Moon (Bounty 257)
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Why? Because email its fast and easy. I enjoy the email over the many forums I check out - hit & miss.

P.S. learned more here in six months than a few years on the fancy forums.
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> With the mail list format, we can forget that we discussed...
> thus allowing us to do it all over again.

Are you guys kidding me. With a memory like mine, this is the greatest advantage of this list. All of these topics have yet to reach the point where I'm beginning to reatain the information... always something new too, even if you're not new to the list. Personally, I like it this way.

Rudy
Briney Bug, Panama City, Fl
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OK, thanks. Back to Mystery Oil
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From previous discussions, a number of reasons have favoured the mail list

Security.
reduced bandwidth for those who are out actually cruising.
if it ain't broke don't fix it - I've also got a career orientated mail list
where someone decided we needed a Facebook group - nothing happens there or
has for months.
my e-mail client groups messages by topic.

CHeers

Mike Eedy
North Bay ON

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Hayden" <>
To:
>
> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
>
> Peter
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The short answer, Peter and others, is that many people love the email format.
Like about 2,000 subscribers and growing.

I did launch a forum two years at http://www.trawlercrawler.net but it has
never generated the traffic the list does.

If you prefer the forum format, get on over there and start up a discussion.

--Georgs

Georgs Kolesnikovs
Your host at Trawlers & Trawlering since 1997
http://www.trawlersandtrawlering.com
Your host at TrawlerCrawler.net since 2009
http://www.trawlercrawler.net


> This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious why this is
operated
> only as a mail list and not a web forum? Personally, I'd prefer a web
forum
> for a number of reasons. They are:
>
> 1) Organization of discussions by thread/topic
> 2) Rich search facilities that automatically search everything
> 3) The ability to receive all posts via email, if you prefer to stick with
> email only.
>
> The bottom line is that it seems to me that a web forum gives a much richer
> set of capabilities while still allowing people to operate via email only
if
> they so choose.
>
> I'm sure there's a reason for staying with a mail list. What is it?
>
> Peter
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Peter,

You asked a serious question, so I will attempt a serious answer. I mean no
personal disrespect to any persons with my observations, following. My
comments are about the "system" that is T&T; a system comprised of interacting
and overlapping human and technological components. I believe my summary is
accurate and reflects reality, but I acknowledge some of my comments may sound
harsh, particularly in email form.

In watching this T&T list operate over the past several years, it seems to me
there is strong resistance to ideas about changing it, and rigid adherence to
"rules" laid down by it's leaders (owners), some of which make only partial
sense. This has driven away some major contributors over time, and that
outcome seems acceptable to list leaders and is tolerated by us, all of us,
the list's users. The design point of this list - defacto, just the standard
of its day - is as a collecting point for posing and responding to random
topics in random order.

Resistance to change is human factors in nature, on the part of both the
people who run the list and those of us who use it; it's not about technology.
Fundamentally, the vast majority of users feel "it's OK." Creating an
effective forum is *very difficult.* To work effectively, a forum has to have
a complete, robust taxonomy. That necessitates a very substantial startup and
learning curve just to determine, organize and codify topic categories. That
could be done here. The data to construct a taxonomy is present in the many
years of archives we have. But there's no interest in doing it. No desire.
There's no vision and little appreciation of how it could be better, and the
intellectual "cost" of entry is high.

I believe you participate in the AGLCA forum, so you know that forum's
taxonomy is not very robust. The vast majority of posts wind up in the
"general" category. Their audience turns over quickly, so users learning a
complex taxonomy is not likely to happen. Developing an effective taxonomy
requires many hours of thoughtful consideration behind the scenes, and
collegial discussion and open mindedness on the part of the leadership with
knowledgeable users. It also requires willingness on the part of users to
learn it and use it. Not sure T&T has either interest. T&T's sole advantage
is it's simplicity of use. Difficulties with searches, archives and posting
pictures are largely accepted and ignored. People just ask the same old
questions again and again, and for the most part, responders are kind enough
and generous enough to simply respond again. If you look at the data (actual
message traffic in our years of archives) you'll see several topics that
routinely come up every few months, including this one, about 6 months ago. A
good search capability would remedy that, but then, individual users would
have to know how to do searches, and many T&T folks proudly assert that they
are not computer literate and intend to stay that way (I believe we've seen it
in this thread already). In fact, computer related topics related to boating
apps have actually been discouraged on this list. I and others have been
advised to "take your Windows question to a Windows forum," even though the
question was unique to an ECS app, or GPS setup, or software hangs. I have an
open question now on searching the T&T archives (not getting hits on keywords
using Google search) that one of the administrators agreed to follow up on. I
have been waiting on that for several weeks, and although many people have
reported the same problem searching the archives, I believe its out-of-sight
and out-of-mind at this point.

Nevertheless, T&T as-is works for a lot of people. I think it has a lot of
value, even with it's severe limitations.

If you want fora, there are plenty out there. Incidentally, I am not
overwhelmingly convinced they're that much better; they just have different
limitations. I didn't personally think much of the seriousness of the
"viaduct, vi not a chicken" response, but in the context of the different
strengths and weaknesses of mail lists vs. fora, it does have merit.

My advice: don't tinker with success.

Jim

Peg and Jim Healy aboard Sanctuary
Currently at Belhaven, NC
Monk 36 Hull #132
MMSI #367042570
AGLCA #3767
MTOA #3436
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Jim,

Thanks for the thoughtful and constructive response. It sure contrasts one
nasty private email I received, presumably not from the welcoming committee.

I guess I'd summarize the collective responses as saying "Yes, we understand
the limitations of a list, but really like the simplicity, and on balance
choose to stick with a list." That's fine, I fully accept it, and hope to
continue to participate in that context. One person said to me "If you don't
like lists then why did you sign up?". To me, it's about content first, and
format second. The content on this list is good - that's why I signed up and
why I continue to participate - even though I think it could be even more
useful in a different format.

Regarding taxonomy, I agree it doesn't go well with any forum or list partly
because they are intended to be free-form. That said, good search
capabilities can make up for a lot of evil in the taxonomy department. In the
forum world, different sites take different approaches to organization, as I'm
sure you know. One, YachtForum.com I think, is so
granularly organized that it's nearly useless. On the other end of the
spectrum (sort of), there is another site unrelated to boats that has taken an
interesting approach. They have a fairly conventional forum structure, but
also have a Wiki "manual" that is evolving nicely, and is a structured, well
organized manual on the subject matter constructed from content from the
forums, creating an organized presentation of the communities collective
wisdom. Anyway, I'm not suggesting T&T do any of this - I just find it
interesting.

OK, back to my stabilizers. There's work to be done and a launch date to
meet.....

Peter


On Apr 28, 2011, at 10:45 AM, Jim Healy wrote:

Peter,

You asked a serious question, so I will attempt a serious answer. I mean no
personal disrespect to any persons with my observations, following. My
comments are about the "system" that is T&T; a system comprised of interacting
and overlapping human and technological components. I believe my summary is
accurate and reflects reality, but I acknowledge some of my comments may sound
harsh, particularly in email form.

In watching this T&T list operate over the past several years, it seems to me
there is strong resistance to ideas about changing it, and rigid adherence to
"rules" laid down by it's leaders (owners), some of which make only partial
sense. This has driven away some major contributors over time, and that
outcome seems acceptable to list leaders and is tolerated by us, all of us,
the list's users. The design point of this list - defacto, just the standard
of its day - is as a collecting point for posing and responding to random
topics in random order.

Resistance to change is human factors in nature, on the part of both the
people who run the list and those of us who use it; it's not about technology.
Fundamentally, the vast majority of users feel "it's OK." Creating an
effective forum is *very difficult.* To work effectively, a forum has to have
a complete, robust taxonomy. That necessitates a very substantial startup and
learning curve just to determine, organize and codify topic categories. That
could be done here. The data to construct a taxonomy is present in the many
years of archives we have. But there's no interest in doing it. No desire.
There's no vision and little appreciation of how it could be better, and the
intellectual "cost" of entry is high.

I believe you participate in the AGLCA forum, so you know that forum's
taxonomy is not very robust. The vast majority of posts wind up in the
"general" category. Their audience turns over quickly, so users learning a
complex taxonomy is not likely to happen. Developing an effective taxonomy
requires many hours of thoughtful consideration behind the scenes, and
collegial discussion and open mindedness on the part of the leadership with
knowledgeable users. It also requires willingness on the part of users to
learn it and use it. Not sure T&T has either interest. T&T's sole advantage
is it's simplicity of use. Difficulties with searches, archives and posting
pictures are largely accepted and ignored. People just ask the same old
questions again and again, and for the most part, responders are kind enough
and generous enough to simply respond again. If you look at the data (actual
message traffic in our years of archives) you'll see several topics that
routinely come up every few months, including this one, about 6 months ago. A
good search capability would remedy that, but then, individual users would
have to know how to do searches, and many T&T folks proudly assert that they
are not computer literate and intend to stay that way (I believe we've seen it
in this thread already). In fact, computer related topics related to boating
apps have actually been discouraged on this list. I and others have been
advised to "take your Windows question to a Windows forum," even though the
question was unique to an ECS app, or GPS setup, or software hangs. I have an
open question now on searching the T&T archives (not getting hits on keywords
using Google search) that one of the administrators agreed to follow up on. I
have been waiting on that for several weeks, and although many people have
reported the same problem searching the archives, I believe its out-of-sight
and out-of-mind at this point.

Nevertheless, T&T as-is works for a lot of people. I think it has a lot of
value, even with it's severe limitations.

If you want fora, there are plenty out there. Incidentally, I am not
overwhelmingly convinced they're that much better; they just have different
limitations. I didn't personally think much of the seriousness of the
"viaduct, vi not a chicken" response, but in the context of the different
strengths and weaknesses of mail lists vs. fora, it does have merit.

My advice: don't tinker with success.

Jim

Peg and Jim Healy aboard Sanctuary
Currently at Belhaven, NC
Monk 36 Hull #132
MMSI #367042570
AGLCA #3767
MTOA #3436
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I too will attempt a serious reply.

Let me first state my qualifications. I own a trawler, and I've been using
this list for over 8 years. I'm certainly not the largest contributor, but
I'm not a total lurker, either. I've subscribed to other mailing lists as
well. I'm also in the software business, and it just so happens that for the
past 21 years I've built collaboration/forum/knowledge management software
(some of you may have used an early product of mine, FirstClass, which still
has several million users). I've also tested many other collaboration
products.

Here's what I've got to say:

Mail lists definitely have pluses and minuses. On the plus side, there's not
much of a learning curve. On the minus side, they tend to pollute your
mailbox. This can be addressed with clever filtering, but that's typically
out of the comfort zone for typical users.

One big advantage of a mail list is that it may be stored locally (on your
computer) and hence kept accessible even when you are disconnected. This was
really important 10 or even 5 years ago, but not so much any more.

Good forum/collaboration software definitely has some advantages as well.
However, even as a vendor of such software I'll say that the advantages tend
to be more obvious when you are in an environment with many, many
simultaneous forums on-the-go (for example, in education you might have a
forum for each course you are enrolled in). For participating in a single
forum, the overhead (having to log in) is not worth the payback.
Now, what both forum software and mail lists are really, really poor at is
converting discussions into knowledge. Hence the endless discussions of 2 vs
20 microns, rules of the road, etc. There no easy way to "save" or "convert"
this information from a thread into permanent knowlege.

The other obvious candidate for knowledge management is a Wiki. This is
great for collating knowledge, but really falls down on the collaboration
side.

This is actually a very active area of R&D in the software world, and in
fact at my last company we built a product that attempted to do this very
thing, albeit in a corporate setting.

So, what should we be doing with T&T? Well, the list as it stands more or
less does the job. However, I'd suggest that you all might want to check out
a new product named "Quora". This is a very cool, very interesting way to
solve the discussion/knowledge problem, and it's totally free. You can sign
up at www.quora.com and just for fun I have created a new question on (what
else) fuel filter micron ratings. Check it out:
http://www.quora.com/When-you-have-two-fuel-filters-on-your-diesel-engine-should-they-both-have-the-same-micron-rating

I have no connection whatsoever to Quora (bummer, since it looks like they
could be the next Facebook) but I do like what they are doing.

Scott Welch
Island Eagle
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Georgs: Completely agree. KISS!. Best Regards. Leonard Stern, INDIFFERENCE
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On 28/04/2011 18:43, Peter Hayden wrote:
> Thanks for the thoughtful and constructive response. It sure contrasts one
> nasty private email I received, presumably not from the welcoming committee.

Peter,

I'm sorry that you've received unpleasant emails, this place is normally
quite friendly.
I think that the 'list' format of T&T serves a need, if it didn't, like
other internet ventures that are past their sell by date, it would
wither and die. There is one very succesful forum with at least a small
part of it given over to motor cruisers 'Cruisers Forum'.
George also started a Forum but it seems to be largely unsuccessful in
attracting a contributing audience. I'm of the mind that says 'don't
fix it if it ain't broke'. Of course, the net being open to everyone,
you could start your own venture.

Paige
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No worries about the nasty emails - I've been called way worse :)

Yes, I've found Cruisers Forum and find it quite good. That's where I've
started a thread on the installation of stabilizers on my boat. There are
lots of pictures, so it's a good venue. I've found others too, including the
Great Loop forum, the Grand Banks Owners Association forum, and others. It's
great that so many are available, each with its own strengths and weaknesses.

Starting another forum is not something I'll do. I actually think the overall
boating dialogue would benefit from consolidation of forums and lists, not
proliferation of more. Too many lack critical mass of participation and
dialogue. It sounds like that's what happened to trawlerforum.

On Apr 28, 2011, at 8:12 PM, Paige wrote:

> On 28/04/2011 18:43, Peter Hayden wrote:
>> Thanks for the thoughtful and constructive response. It sure contrasts
one
>> nasty private email I received, presumably not from the welcoming
committee.
>
> Peter,
>
> I'm sorry that you've received unpleasant emails, this place is normally
> quite friendly.
> I think that the 'list' format of T&T serves a need, if it didn't, like
> other internet ventures that are past their sell by date, it would
> wither and die. There is one very succesful forum with at least a small
> part of it given over to motor cruisers 'Cruisers Forum'.
> George also started a Forum but it seems to be largely unsuccessful in
> attracting a contributing audience. I'm of the mind that says 'don't
> fix it if it ain't broke'. Of course, the net being open to everyone,
> you could start your own venture.
>
> Paige
> _______________________________________________
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>There is one very successful forum with at least a small part of it given
over to motor cruisers 'Cruisers Forum'. George also started a Forum but it
seems to be largely unsuccessful in attracting a contributing audience.

There is a very active forum-type forum called TrawlerForum. It's been in
operation for several years now and the number of participants has grown
tremendously. Its future is a bit uncertain due to the growing cost of
hosting the forum, but as of now it is extremely popular with a growing number
of boaters. While I no longer participate actively in this particular forum,
one of the things I really like about it is the ability to post photos in
one's posts.

I do not see forums like this making T&T redundant, however. I think pound
for pound, or post for post, T&T provides the biggest bang for the buck in
terms of actual boating information. Forums tend to start out that way but
then they seem to morph into as much a social site as an informational one.
Because of this, and because of the tighter control on how discussions
develop, I think T&T has a more varied user base and the average boating
experience among the participants is greater (in my opinion), which means one
gets more exposure to truly useful information.

With one exception I have found most of the forums I have participated in or
perused regularly to have become somewhat trite over time. I have not found
that to be the case here.

______________________________
C. Marin Faure
GB36-403 (grp) "La Perouse"
Bellingham, Washington
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