Hi all,

I am about to change from middleware development to a new frontend project.
I haven't worked on the Front-end with Java in a while and am wondering
about the status of Java's frontend capabilities. Is Java a good tool with
which to build apps? What is the preferred tool set? Other platform
better? Is the Web Start and other deployment options useful and effective,
good, easy to use?

We will be developing for a desktop, laptop, application. Not guaranteed to
be connected to the net, at least all the time. User interface is going to
be important. Quick response to user interaction. May include a pen driven
interface. Some manipulation of audio files and graphics. Light database
requirements, but needed. Creation, positioning, and manipulating of screen
objects important.

-Gary

---
Gary Lunsford
Portland, OR

Hi all,

I am about to change from middleware development to a new frontend project.
I haven't worked on the Front-end with Java in a while and am wondering
about the status of Java's frontend capabilities. Is Java a good tool with
which to build apps? What is the preferred tool set? Other platform
better? Is the Web Start and other deployment options useful and effective,
good, easy to use?

We will be developing for a desktop, laptop, application. Not guaranteed to
be connected to the net, at least all the time. User interface is going to
be important. Quick response to user interaction. May include a pen driven
interface. Some manipulation of audio files and graphics. Light database
requirements, but needed. Creation, positioning, and manipulating of screen
objects important.

-Gary

---
Gary Lunsford
Portland, OR I have done quite a bit of java SE application development for internal type
applications used on various hardware and OSs including desktops, laptops
and thin clients running Mac, Window, Linux and Solaris. I really liked
using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and I
did not have to worry about multiple browser support. Being the only
developer on the application and not being dedicated to it full time,
removing the cross browser issues and reducing time to implement was huge.

I also used java web start to deploy the application which worked out very
well. I wish Sun had put more effort into continued development of web start
and pushing it as a viable technology. It did work very well for me for
distributing the application across multiple platforms and multiple
geographies without issues. I found there to be a few issues that where a
pain to work through, like "signing" your application tended to cause me
headaches, but once I got it all worked out, it was easy enough.

I looked into using an application framework like Netbeans, and if I where
starting another application now I would likely start with the Netbeans
platform as it will give you a lot of the basic infrastructure of your
application like dockable and adjustable internal widows, right click menus,
etc. I have only explored using the Netbeans platform a little, but was
impressed by what I saw.

If you do go with java web start, there are two important features you
should bake into your app from the start. One is a version number that is
visible when the app starts up and while it is being used. Because the
application will only update when it is launched, I found users would keep
it open for several weeks and I often was not sure what version they where
actually running when discussing an issue.

The second thing I added was to add the version number to the database, with
a major and minor release tag. Then the application would check the database
every so often to see if there was a new release. If there was a new minor
release, the app would alert the user to restart the application when they
could, and then not show the message again until the next day. If there was
a new major release, the application would alert the user then restart. This
would mainly be used if there where changes to the database or something
that could cause major issues if the user continued to use an older version
of the application. This is something I wish was baked into the web start
technology, but is not AFAIK. Even with a relatively small user base, I
found I could not simply send an email asking them to restart in the event
of a major release, so I had to add the system to force the restart.

Thanks,
Bryan



On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 7:01 PM, Gary Lunsford <> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I am about to change from middleware development to a new frontend
> project. I haven't worked on the Front-end with Java in a while and am
> wondering about the status of Java's frontend capabilities. Is Java a good
> tool with which to build apps? What is the preferred tool set? Other
> platform better? Is the Web Start and other deployment options useful and
> effective, good, easy to use?
>
> We will be developing for a desktop, laptop, application. Not guaranteed to
> be connected to the net, at least all the time. User interface is going to
> be important. Quick response to user interaction. May include a pen driven
> interface. Some manipulation of audio files and graphics. Light database
> requirements, but needed. Creation, positioning, and manipulating of screen
> objects important.
>
> -Gary
>
> ---
> Gary Lunsford
> Portland, OR
>
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe.

Hi all,

I am about to change from middleware development to a new frontend project.
I haven't worked on the Front-end with Java in a while and am wondering
about the status of Java's frontend capabilities. Is Java a good tool with
which to build apps? What is the preferred tool set? Other platform
better? Is the Web Start and other deployment options useful and effective,
good, easy to use?

We will be developing for a desktop, laptop, application. Not guaranteed to
be connected to the net, at least all the time. User interface is going to
be important. Quick response to user interaction. May include a pen driven
interface. Some manipulation of audio files and graphics. Light database
requirements, but needed. Creation, positioning, and manipulating of screen
objects important.

-Gary

---
Gary Lunsford
Portland, OR I have done quite a bit of java SE application development for internal type
applications used on various hardware and OSs including desktops, laptops
and thin clients running Mac, Window, Linux and Solaris. I really liked
using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and I
did not have to worry about multiple browser support. Being the only
developer on the application and not being dedicated to it full time,
removing the cross browser issues and reducing time to implement was huge.

I also used java web start to deploy the application which worked out very
well. I wish Sun had put more effort into continued development of web start
and pushing it as a viable technology. It did work very well for me for
distributing the application across multiple platforms and multiple
geographies without issues. I found there to be a few issues that where a
pain to work through, like "signing" your application tended to cause me
headaches, but once I got it all worked out, it was easy enough.

I looked into using an application framework like Netbeans, and if I where
starting another application now I would likely start with the Netbeans
platform as it will give you a lot of the basic infrastructure of your
application like dockable and adjustable internal widows, right click menus,
etc. I have only explored using the Netbeans platform a little, but was
impressed by what I saw.

If you do go with java web start, there are two important features you
should bake into your app from the start. One is a version number that is
visible when the app starts up and while it is being used. Because the
application will only update when it is launched, I found users would keep
it open for several weeks and I often was not sure what version they where
actually running when discussing an issue.

The second thing I added was to add the version number to the database, with
a major and minor release tag. Then the application would check the database
every so often to see if there was a new release. If there was a new minor
release, the app would alert the user to restart the application when they
could, and then not show the message again until the next day. If there was
a new major release, the application would alert the user then restart. This
would mainly be used if there where changes to the database or something
that could cause major issues if the user continued to use an older version
of the application. This is something I wish was baked into the web start
technology, but is not AFAIK. Even with a relatively small user base, I
found I could not simply send an email asking them to restart in the event
of a major release, so I had to add the system to force the restart.

Thanks,
Bryan



On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 7:01 PM, Gary Lunsford <> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I am about to change from middleware development to a new frontend
> project. I haven't worked on the Front-end with Java in a while and am
> wondering about the status of Java's frontend capabilities. Is Java a good
> tool with which to build apps? What is the preferred tool set? Other
> platform better? Is the Web Start and other deployment options useful and
> effective, good, easy to use?
>
> We will be developing for a desktop, laptop, application. Not guaranteed to
> be connected to the net, at least all the time. User interface is going to
> be important. Quick response to user interaction. May include a pen driven
> interface. Some manipulation of audio files and graphics. Light database
> requirements, but needed. Creation, positioning, and manipulating of screen
> objects important.
>
> -Gary
>
> ---
> Gary Lunsford
> Portland, OR
>
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. Bryan said:

>>

I really liked
using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and I
did not have to worry about multiple browser support.

<<

I so agree - we have had Java Swing applets in production use by our customers since Swing 1.0 (late 90's). We had an AWT based applet prior to that.

I personally believe that Swing has gotten a very unfair wrap. It is SO much easier to work on a Swing based application than one that runs on top of any web applications framework - and I am including the convention based ones like Rails and Grails.

That being said, we are decreasing our use of applets - we mainly use them for very rich applications that have GUI visio-like things going on (the user is dragging and dropping things onto a canvas and working with them visually).

Gary - if I was starting fresh today on a GUI Java application, I would definitely plan on using Java Web Start as Bryan said. We actually support both (applets or Web Start) - there is no reason you have to use one or the other.

I also would steer clear of SWT as it is not pure Java and not consistent across platforms. Swing performs amazingly well now on modern CPU's and JVM's - there really is no compelling reason to use SWT for a business application.

If this is an application that would need to be supported and maintained by a lot of people over time, I would want to use Java for the core business logic of the application. There are a lot of reasons for this, but I don't want to make this response too lengthy.

If the team is not large and distributed, or if you already have strength with Groovy, I would give a long hard look at Griffon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffon_%28framework%29

I think using something like Griffon would be a great way to build a Java GUI application - but I would want to keep the Groovy usage to just the app-framework scaffolding, as I prefer using Java for the "meat" on those bones.

By the way - you also might want to take a look at the GUI builder in Netbeans (aka "Matisse"?) and also what is in IntelliJ - they are both pretty amazing and help ease the pain of working with Swing layout managers, which is one of the biggest pains in Swing land.

And on the layout manager front, check out MIG Layourt: http://www.miglayout.com/

I have lot of Java/Swing related links saved here (some are dated now!): http://www.delicious.com/sfraser/swing

-Scott


________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe.

Hi all,

I am about to change from middleware development to a new frontend project.
I haven't worked on the Front-end with Java in a while and am wondering
about the status of Java's frontend capabilities. Is Java a good tool with
which to build apps? What is the preferred tool set? Other platform
better? Is the Web Start and other deployment options useful and effective,
good, easy to use?

We will be developing for a desktop, laptop, application. Not guaranteed to
be connected to the net, at least all the time. User interface is going to
be important. Quick response to user interaction. May include a pen driven
interface. Some manipulation of audio files and graphics. Light database
requirements, but needed. Creation, positioning, and manipulating of screen
objects important.

-Gary

---
Gary Lunsford
Portland, OR I have done quite a bit of java SE application development for internal type
applications used on various hardware and OSs including desktops, laptops
and thin clients running Mac, Window, Linux and Solaris. I really liked
using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and I
did not have to worry about multiple browser support. Being the only
developer on the application and not being dedicated to it full time,
removing the cross browser issues and reducing time to implement was huge.

I also used java web start to deploy the application which worked out very
well. I wish Sun had put more effort into continued development of web start
and pushing it as a viable technology. It did work very well for me for
distributing the application across multiple platforms and multiple
geographies without issues. I found there to be a few issues that where a
pain to work through, like "signing" your application tended to cause me
headaches, but once I got it all worked out, it was easy enough.

I looked into using an application framework like Netbeans, and if I where
starting another application now I would likely start with the Netbeans
platform as it will give you a lot of the basic infrastructure of your
application like dockable and adjustable internal widows, right click menus,
etc. I have only explored using the Netbeans platform a little, but was
impressed by what I saw.

If you do go with java web start, there are two important features you
should bake into your app from the start. One is a version number that is
visible when the app starts up and while it is being used. Because the
application will only update when it is launched, I found users would keep
it open for several weeks and I often was not sure what version they where
actually running when discussing an issue.

The second thing I added was to add the version number to the database, with
a major and minor release tag. Then the application would check the database
every so often to see if there was a new release. If there was a new minor
release, the app would alert the user to restart the application when they
could, and then not show the message again until the next day. If there was
a new major release, the application would alert the user then restart. This
would mainly be used if there where changes to the database or something
that could cause major issues if the user continued to use an older version
of the application. This is something I wish was baked into the web start
technology, but is not AFAIK. Even with a relatively small user base, I
found I could not simply send an email asking them to restart in the event
of a major release, so I had to add the system to force the restart.

Thanks,
Bryan



On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 7:01 PM, Gary Lunsford <> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I am about to change from middleware development to a new frontend
> project. I haven't worked on the Front-end with Java in a while and am
> wondering about the status of Java's frontend capabilities. Is Java a good
> tool with which to build apps? What is the preferred tool set? Other
> platform better? Is the Web Start and other deployment options useful and
> effective, good, easy to use?
>
> We will be developing for a desktop, laptop, application. Not guaranteed to
> be connected to the net, at least all the time. User interface is going to
> be important. Quick response to user interaction. May include a pen driven
> interface. Some manipulation of audio files and graphics. Light database
> requirements, but needed. Creation, positioning, and manipulating of screen
> objects important.
>
> -Gary
>
> ---
> Gary Lunsford
> Portland, OR
>
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. Bryan said:

>>

I really liked
using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and I
did not have to worry about multiple browser support.

<<

I so agree - we have had Java Swing applets in production use by our customers since Swing 1.0 (late 90's). We had an AWT based applet prior to that.

I personally believe that Swing has gotten a very unfair wrap. It is SO much easier to work on a Swing based application than one that runs on top of any web applications framework - and I am including the convention based ones like Rails and Grails.

That being said, we are decreasing our use of applets - we mainly use them for very rich applications that have GUI visio-like things going on (the user is dragging and dropping things onto a canvas and working with them visually).

Gary - if I was starting fresh today on a GUI Java application, I would definitely plan on using Java Web Start as Bryan said. We actually support both (applets or Web Start) - there is no reason you have to use one or the other.

I also would steer clear of SWT as it is not pure Java and not consistent across platforms. Swing performs amazingly well now on modern CPU's and JVM's - there really is no compelling reason to use SWT for a business application.

If this is an application that would need to be supported and maintained by a lot of people over time, I would want to use Java for the core business logic of the application. There are a lot of reasons for this, but I don't want to make this response too lengthy.

If the team is not large and distributed, or if you already have strength with Groovy, I would give a long hard look at Griffon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffon_%28framework%29

I think using something like Griffon would be a great way to build a Java GUI application - but I would want to keep the Groovy usage to just the app-framework scaffolding, as I prefer using Java for the "meat" on those bones.

By the way - you also might want to take a look at the GUI builder in Netbeans (aka "Matisse"?) and also what is in IntelliJ - they are both pretty amazing and help ease the pain of working with Swing layout managers, which is one of the biggest pains in Swing land.

And on the layout manager front, check out MIG Layourt: http://www.miglayout.com/

I have lot of Java/Swing related links saved here (some are dated now!): http://www.delicious.com/sfraser/swing

-Scott


________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. I actually got my start in the Java world working on JSF Web applications
and just recently wrote my first Swing application. I was impressed with how
easy it was to learn, including the advanced topics like tree handling and
drag and drop. It made an excellent desktop application, one of these days I
am going to have to look into using it for Web applications. I agree with
Scott on the NetBeans Swing gui builder. It is really sweet and does a good
job handling the layout, which would definitely be the most tedious part of
Swing if you had to deal with the code manually.

On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 10:49 AM, Scott Fraser <>wrote:

> Bryan said:
>
> >>
>
> I really liked
> using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
> types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
> work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
> majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
> provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and
> I
> did not have to worry about multiple browser support.
>
> <<
>
> I so agree - we have had Java Swing applets in production use by our
> customers since Swing 1.0 (late 90's). We had an AWT based applet prior to
> that.
>
> I personally believe that Swing has gotten a very unfair wrap. It is SO
> much easier to work on a Swing based application than one that runs on top
> of any web applications framework - and I am including the convention based
> ones like Rails and Grails.
>
> That being said, we are decreasing our use of applets - we mainly use them
> for very rich applications that have GUI visio-like things going on (the
> user is dragging and dropping things onto a canvas and working with them
> visually).
>
> Gary - if I was starting fresh today on a GUI Java application, I would
> definitely plan on using Java Web Start as Bryan said. We actually support
> both (applets or Web Start) - there is no reason you have to use one or the
> other.
>
> I also would steer clear of SWT as it is not pure Java and not consistent
> across platforms. Swing performs amazingly well now on modern CPU's and
> JVM's - there really is no compelling reason to use SWT for a business
> application.
>
> If this is an application that would need to be supported and maintained by
> a lot of people over time, I would want to use Java for the core business
> logic of the application. There are a lot of reasons for this, but I don't
> want to make this response too lengthy.
>
> If the team is not large and distributed, or if you already have strength
> with Groovy, I would give a long hard look at Griffon:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffon_%28framework%29
>
> I think using something like Griffon would be a great way to build a Java
> GUI application - but I would want to keep the Groovy usage to just the
> app-framework scaffolding, as I prefer using Java for the "meat" on those
> bones.
>
> By the way - you also might want to take a look at the GUI builder in
> Netbeans (aka "Matisse"?) and also what is in IntelliJ - they are both
> pretty amazing and help ease the pain of working with Swing layout managers,
> which is one of the biggest pains in Swing land.
>
> And on the layout manager front, check out MIG Layourt:
> http://www.miglayout.com/
>
> I have lot of Java/Swing related links saved here (some are dated now!):
> http://www.delicious.com/sfraser/swing
>
> -Scott
>
>
> ________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe.

Hi all,

I am about to change from middleware development to a new frontend project.
I haven't worked on the Front-end with Java in a while and am wondering
about the status of Java's frontend capabilities. Is Java a good tool with
which to build apps? What is the preferred tool set? Other platform
better? Is the Web Start and other deployment options useful and effective,
good, easy to use?

We will be developing for a desktop, laptop, application. Not guaranteed to
be connected to the net, at least all the time. User interface is going to
be important. Quick response to user interaction. May include a pen driven
interface. Some manipulation of audio files and graphics. Light database
requirements, but needed. Creation, positioning, and manipulating of screen
objects important.

-Gary

---
Gary Lunsford
Portland, OR I have done quite a bit of java SE application development for internal type
applications used on various hardware and OSs including desktops, laptops
and thin clients running Mac, Window, Linux and Solaris. I really liked
using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and I
did not have to worry about multiple browser support. Being the only
developer on the application and not being dedicated to it full time,
removing the cross browser issues and reducing time to implement was huge.

I also used java web start to deploy the application which worked out very
well. I wish Sun had put more effort into continued development of web start
and pushing it as a viable technology. It did work very well for me for
distributing the application across multiple platforms and multiple
geographies without issues. I found there to be a few issues that where a
pain to work through, like "signing" your application tended to cause me
headaches, but once I got it all worked out, it was easy enough.

I looked into using an application framework like Netbeans, and if I where
starting another application now I would likely start with the Netbeans
platform as it will give you a lot of the basic infrastructure of your
application like dockable and adjustable internal widows, right click menus,
etc. I have only explored using the Netbeans platform a little, but was
impressed by what I saw.

If you do go with java web start, there are two important features you
should bake into your app from the start. One is a version number that is
visible when the app starts up and while it is being used. Because the
application will only update when it is launched, I found users would keep
it open for several weeks and I often was not sure what version they where
actually running when discussing an issue.

The second thing I added was to add the version number to the database, with
a major and minor release tag. Then the application would check the database
every so often to see if there was a new release. If there was a new minor
release, the app would alert the user to restart the application when they
could, and then not show the message again until the next day. If there was
a new major release, the application would alert the user then restart. This
would mainly be used if there where changes to the database or something
that could cause major issues if the user continued to use an older version
of the application. This is something I wish was baked into the web start
technology, but is not AFAIK. Even with a relatively small user base, I
found I could not simply send an email asking them to restart in the event
of a major release, so I had to add the system to force the restart.

Thanks,
Bryan



On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 7:01 PM, Gary Lunsford <> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I am about to change from middleware development to a new frontend
> project. I haven't worked on the Front-end with Java in a while and am
> wondering about the status of Java's frontend capabilities. Is Java a good
> tool with which to build apps? What is the preferred tool set? Other
> platform better? Is the Web Start and other deployment options useful and
> effective, good, easy to use?
>
> We will be developing for a desktop, laptop, application. Not guaranteed to
> be connected to the net, at least all the time. User interface is going to
> be important. Quick response to user interaction. May include a pen driven
> interface. Some manipulation of audio files and graphics. Light database
> requirements, but needed. Creation, positioning, and manipulating of screen
> objects important.
>
> -Gary
>
> ---
> Gary Lunsford
> Portland, OR
>
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. Bryan said:

>>

I really liked
using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and I
did not have to worry about multiple browser support.

<<

I so agree - we have had Java Swing applets in production use by our customers since Swing 1.0 (late 90's). We had an AWT based applet prior to that.

I personally believe that Swing has gotten a very unfair wrap. It is SO much easier to work on a Swing based application than one that runs on top of any web applications framework - and I am including the convention based ones like Rails and Grails.

That being said, we are decreasing our use of applets - we mainly use them for very rich applications that have GUI visio-like things going on (the user is dragging and dropping things onto a canvas and working with them visually).

Gary - if I was starting fresh today on a GUI Java application, I would definitely plan on using Java Web Start as Bryan said. We actually support both (applets or Web Start) - there is no reason you have to use one or the other.

I also would steer clear of SWT as it is not pure Java and not consistent across platforms. Swing performs amazingly well now on modern CPU's and JVM's - there really is no compelling reason to use SWT for a business application.

If this is an application that would need to be supported and maintained by a lot of people over time, I would want to use Java for the core business logic of the application. There are a lot of reasons for this, but I don't want to make this response too lengthy.

If the team is not large and distributed, or if you already have strength with Groovy, I would give a long hard look at Griffon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffon_%28framework%29

I think using something like Griffon would be a great way to build a Java GUI application - but I would want to keep the Groovy usage to just the app-framework scaffolding, as I prefer using Java for the "meat" on those bones.

By the way - you also might want to take a look at the GUI builder in Netbeans (aka "Matisse"?) and also what is in IntelliJ - they are both pretty amazing and help ease the pain of working with Swing layout managers, which is one of the biggest pains in Swing land.

And on the layout manager front, check out MIG Layourt: http://www.miglayout.com/

I have lot of Java/Swing related links saved here (some are dated now!): http://www.delicious.com/sfraser/swing

-Scott


________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. I actually got my start in the Java world working on JSF Web applications
and just recently wrote my first Swing application. I was impressed with how
easy it was to learn, including the advanced topics like tree handling and
drag and drop. It made an excellent desktop application, one of these days I
am going to have to look into using it for Web applications. I agree with
Scott on the NetBeans Swing gui builder. It is really sweet and does a good
job handling the layout, which would definitely be the most tedious part of
Swing if you had to deal with the code manually.

On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 10:49 AM, Scott Fraser <>wrote:

> Bryan said:
>
> >>
>
> I really liked
> using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
> types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
> work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
> majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
> provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and
> I
> did not have to worry about multiple browser support.
>
> <<
>
> I so agree - we have had Java Swing applets in production use by our
> customers since Swing 1.0 (late 90's). We had an AWT based applet prior to
> that.
>
> I personally believe that Swing has gotten a very unfair wrap. It is SO
> much easier to work on a Swing based application than one that runs on top
> of any web applications framework - and I am including the convention based
> ones like Rails and Grails.
>
> That being said, we are decreasing our use of applets - we mainly use them
> for very rich applications that have GUI visio-like things going on (the
> user is dragging and dropping things onto a canvas and working with them
> visually).
>
> Gary - if I was starting fresh today on a GUI Java application, I would
> definitely plan on using Java Web Start as Bryan said. We actually support
> both (applets or Web Start) - there is no reason you have to use one or the
> other.
>
> I also would steer clear of SWT as it is not pure Java and not consistent
> across platforms. Swing performs amazingly well now on modern CPU's and
> JVM's - there really is no compelling reason to use SWT for a business
> application.
>
> If this is an application that would need to be supported and maintained by
> a lot of people over time, I would want to use Java for the core business
> logic of the application. There are a lot of reasons for this, but I don't
> want to make this response too lengthy.
>
> If the team is not large and distributed, or if you already have strength
> with Groovy, I would give a long hard look at Griffon:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffon_%28framework%29
>
> I think using something like Griffon would be a great way to build a Java
> GUI application - but I would want to keep the Groovy usage to just the
> app-framework scaffolding, as I prefer using Java for the "meat" on those
> bones.
>
> By the way - you also might want to take a look at the GUI builder in
> Netbeans (aka "Matisse"?) and also what is in IntelliJ - they are both
> pretty amazing and help ease the pain of working with Swing layout managers,
> which is one of the biggest pains in Swing land.
>
> And on the layout manager front, check out MIG Layourt:
> http://www.miglayout.com/
>
> I have lot of Java/Swing related links saved here (some are dated now!):
> http://www.delicious.com/sfraser/swing
>
> -Scott
>
>
> ________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. > I also would steer clear of SWT as it is not pure Java and not consistent
> across platforms. Swing performs amazingly well now on modern CPU's and JVM's
> - there really is no compelling reason to use SWT for a business application.


"Not pure Java" is the disparaging way of saying "native widgets", and
in my opinion native makes for a better-looking UI. Swing looks better
than it used to, but SWT is still compelling in my opinion. There's a
reasonably popular app out there called 'Eclipse' that is built with SWT.

The Instantiations WindowBuilder tools (now owned by Google and free to
use) make it quick to get started with either toolkit though.

Daniel Kranowski | Business Algorithms, LLC | http://www.bizalgo.com |
(503) 828-1951



_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe.

Hi all,

I am about to change from middleware development to a new frontend project.
I haven't worked on the Front-end with Java in a while and am wondering
about the status of Java's frontend capabilities. Is Java a good tool with
which to build apps? What is the preferred tool set? Other platform
better? Is the Web Start and other deployment options useful and effective,
good, easy to use?

We will be developing for a desktop, laptop, application. Not guaranteed to
be connected to the net, at least all the time. User interface is going to
be important. Quick response to user interaction. May include a pen driven
interface. Some manipulation of audio files and graphics. Light database
requirements, but needed. Creation, positioning, and manipulating of screen
objects important.

-Gary

---
Gary Lunsford
Portland, OR I have done quite a bit of java SE application development for internal type
applications used on various hardware and OSs including desktops, laptops
and thin clients running Mac, Window, Linux and Solaris. I really liked
using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and I
did not have to worry about multiple browser support. Being the only
developer on the application and not being dedicated to it full time,
removing the cross browser issues and reducing time to implement was huge.

I also used java web start to deploy the application which worked out very
well. I wish Sun had put more effort into continued development of web start
and pushing it as a viable technology. It did work very well for me for
distributing the application across multiple platforms and multiple
geographies without issues. I found there to be a few issues that where a
pain to work through, like "signing" your application tended to cause me
headaches, but once I got it all worked out, it was easy enough.

I looked into using an application framework like Netbeans, and if I where
starting another application now I would likely start with the Netbeans
platform as it will give you a lot of the basic infrastructure of your
application like dockable and adjustable internal widows, right click menus,
etc. I have only explored using the Netbeans platform a little, but was
impressed by what I saw.

If you do go with java web start, there are two important features you
should bake into your app from the start. One is a version number that is
visible when the app starts up and while it is being used. Because the
application will only update when it is launched, I found users would keep
it open for several weeks and I often was not sure what version they where
actually running when discussing an issue.

The second thing I added was to add the version number to the database, with
a major and minor release tag. Then the application would check the database
every so often to see if there was a new release. If there was a new minor
release, the app would alert the user to restart the application when they
could, and then not show the message again until the next day. If there was
a new major release, the application would alert the user then restart. This
would mainly be used if there where changes to the database or something
that could cause major issues if the user continued to use an older version
of the application. This is something I wish was baked into the web start
technology, but is not AFAIK. Even with a relatively small user base, I
found I could not simply send an email asking them to restart in the event
of a major release, so I had to add the system to force the restart.

Thanks,
Bryan



On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 7:01 PM, Gary Lunsford <> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I am about to change from middleware development to a new frontend
> project. I haven't worked on the Front-end with Java in a while and am
> wondering about the status of Java's frontend capabilities. Is Java a good
> tool with which to build apps? What is the preferred tool set? Other
> platform better? Is the Web Start and other deployment options useful and
> effective, good, easy to use?
>
> We will be developing for a desktop, laptop, application. Not guaranteed to
> be connected to the net, at least all the time. User interface is going to
> be important. Quick response to user interaction. May include a pen driven
> interface. Some manipulation of audio files and graphics. Light database
> requirements, but needed. Creation, positioning, and manipulating of screen
> objects important.
>
> -Gary
>
> ---
> Gary Lunsford
> Portland, OR
>
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. Bryan said:

>>

I really liked
using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and I
did not have to worry about multiple browser support.

<<

I so agree - we have had Java Swing applets in production use by our customers since Swing 1.0 (late 90's). We had an AWT based applet prior to that.

I personally believe that Swing has gotten a very unfair wrap. It is SO much easier to work on a Swing based application than one that runs on top of any web applications framework - and I am including the convention based ones like Rails and Grails.

That being said, we are decreasing our use of applets - we mainly use them for very rich applications that have GUI visio-like things going on (the user is dragging and dropping things onto a canvas and working with them visually).

Gary - if I was starting fresh today on a GUI Java application, I would definitely plan on using Java Web Start as Bryan said. We actually support both (applets or Web Start) - there is no reason you have to use one or the other.

I also would steer clear of SWT as it is not pure Java and not consistent across platforms. Swing performs amazingly well now on modern CPU's and JVM's - there really is no compelling reason to use SWT for a business application.

If this is an application that would need to be supported and maintained by a lot of people over time, I would want to use Java for the core business logic of the application. There are a lot of reasons for this, but I don't want to make this response too lengthy.

If the team is not large and distributed, or if you already have strength with Groovy, I would give a long hard look at Griffon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffon_%28framework%29

I think using something like Griffon would be a great way to build a Java GUI application - but I would want to keep the Groovy usage to just the app-framework scaffolding, as I prefer using Java for the "meat" on those bones.

By the way - you also might want to take a look at the GUI builder in Netbeans (aka "Matisse"?) and also what is in IntelliJ - they are both pretty amazing and help ease the pain of working with Swing layout managers, which is one of the biggest pains in Swing land.

And on the layout manager front, check out MIG Layourt: http://www.miglayout.com/

I have lot of Java/Swing related links saved here (some are dated now!): http://www.delicious.com/sfraser/swing

-Scott


________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. I actually got my start in the Java world working on JSF Web applications
and just recently wrote my first Swing application. I was impressed with how
easy it was to learn, including the advanced topics like tree handling and
drag and drop. It made an excellent desktop application, one of these days I
am going to have to look into using it for Web applications. I agree with
Scott on the NetBeans Swing gui builder. It is really sweet and does a good
job handling the layout, which would definitely be the most tedious part of
Swing if you had to deal with the code manually.

On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 10:49 AM, Scott Fraser <>wrote:

> Bryan said:
>
> >>
>
> I really liked
> using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
> types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
> work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
> majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
> provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and
> I
> did not have to worry about multiple browser support.
>
> <<
>
> I so agree - we have had Java Swing applets in production use by our
> customers since Swing 1.0 (late 90's). We had an AWT based applet prior to
> that.
>
> I personally believe that Swing has gotten a very unfair wrap. It is SO
> much easier to work on a Swing based application than one that runs on top
> of any web applications framework - and I am including the convention based
> ones like Rails and Grails.
>
> That being said, we are decreasing our use of applets - we mainly use them
> for very rich applications that have GUI visio-like things going on (the
> user is dragging and dropping things onto a canvas and working with them
> visually).
>
> Gary - if I was starting fresh today on a GUI Java application, I would
> definitely plan on using Java Web Start as Bryan said. We actually support
> both (applets or Web Start) - there is no reason you have to use one or the
> other.
>
> I also would steer clear of SWT as it is not pure Java and not consistent
> across platforms. Swing performs amazingly well now on modern CPU's and
> JVM's - there really is no compelling reason to use SWT for a business
> application.
>
> If this is an application that would need to be supported and maintained by
> a lot of people over time, I would want to use Java for the core business
> logic of the application. There are a lot of reasons for this, but I don't
> want to make this response too lengthy.
>
> If the team is not large and distributed, or if you already have strength
> with Groovy, I would give a long hard look at Griffon:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffon_%28framework%29
>
> I think using something like Griffon would be a great way to build a Java
> GUI application - but I would want to keep the Groovy usage to just the
> app-framework scaffolding, as I prefer using Java for the "meat" on those
> bones.
>
> By the way - you also might want to take a look at the GUI builder in
> Netbeans (aka "Matisse"?) and also what is in IntelliJ - they are both
> pretty amazing and help ease the pain of working with Swing layout managers,
> which is one of the biggest pains in Swing land.
>
> And on the layout manager front, check out MIG Layourt:
> http://www.miglayout.com/
>
> I have lot of Java/Swing related links saved here (some are dated now!):
> http://www.delicious.com/sfraser/swing
>
> -Scott
>
>
> ________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. > I also would steer clear of SWT as it is not pure Java and not consistent
> across platforms. Swing performs amazingly well now on modern CPU's and JVM's
> - there really is no compelling reason to use SWT for a business application.


"Not pure Java" is the disparaging way of saying "native widgets", and
in my opinion native makes for a better-looking UI. Swing looks better
than it used to, but SWT is still compelling in my opinion. There's a
reasonably popular app out there called 'Eclipse' that is built with SWT.

The Instantiations WindowBuilder tools (now owned by Google and free to
use) make it quick to get started with either toolkit though.

Daniel Kranowski | Business Algorithms, LLC | http://www.bizalgo.com |
(503) 828-1951



_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. >There's a reasonably popular app out there called 'Eclipse' that is built
with SWT.

Not to start a religious war, but I think Eclipse's popularity is largely
because it's free. To me, every Eclipse based app I've had to use looks
horrible and has poor usability. Promoting SWT by way of Eclipse might not
be helping SWT's case much.

Chris


__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5871 (20110213) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe.

Hi all,

I am about to change from middleware development to a new frontend project.
I haven't worked on the Front-end with Java in a while and am wondering
about the status of Java's frontend capabilities. Is Java a good tool with
which to build apps? What is the preferred tool set? Other platform
better? Is the Web Start and other deployment options useful and effective,
good, easy to use?

We will be developing for a desktop, laptop, application. Not guaranteed to
be connected to the net, at least all the time. User interface is going to
be important. Quick response to user interaction. May include a pen driven
interface. Some manipulation of audio files and graphics. Light database
requirements, but needed. Creation, positioning, and manipulating of screen
objects important.

-Gary

---
Gary Lunsford
Portland, OR I have done quite a bit of java SE application development for internal type
applications used on various hardware and OSs including desktops, laptops
and thin clients running Mac, Window, Linux and Solaris. I really liked
using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and I
did not have to worry about multiple browser support. Being the only
developer on the application and not being dedicated to it full time,
removing the cross browser issues and reducing time to implement was huge.

I also used java web start to deploy the application which worked out very
well. I wish Sun had put more effort into continued development of web start
and pushing it as a viable technology. It did work very well for me for
distributing the application across multiple platforms and multiple
geographies without issues. I found there to be a few issues that where a
pain to work through, like "signing" your application tended to cause me
headaches, but once I got it all worked out, it was easy enough.

I looked into using an application framework like Netbeans, and if I where
starting another application now I would likely start with the Netbeans
platform as it will give you a lot of the basic infrastructure of your
application like dockable and adjustable internal widows, right click menus,
etc. I have only explored using the Netbeans platform a little, but was
impressed by what I saw.

If you do go with java web start, there are two important features you
should bake into your app from the start. One is a version number that is
visible when the app starts up and while it is being used. Because the
application will only update when it is launched, I found users would keep
it open for several weeks and I often was not sure what version they where
actually running when discussing an issue.

The second thing I added was to add the version number to the database, with
a major and minor release tag. Then the application would check the database
every so often to see if there was a new release. If there was a new minor
release, the app would alert the user to restart the application when they
could, and then not show the message again until the next day. If there was
a new major release, the application would alert the user then restart. This
would mainly be used if there where changes to the database or something
that could cause major issues if the user continued to use an older version
of the application. This is something I wish was baked into the web start
technology, but is not AFAIK. Even with a relatively small user base, I
found I could not simply send an email asking them to restart in the event
of a major release, so I had to add the system to force the restart.

Thanks,
Bryan



On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 7:01 PM, Gary Lunsford <> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I am about to change from middleware development to a new frontend
> project. I haven't worked on the Front-end with Java in a while and am
> wondering about the status of Java's frontend capabilities. Is Java a good
> tool with which to build apps? What is the preferred tool set? Other
> platform better? Is the Web Start and other deployment options useful and
> effective, good, easy to use?
>
> We will be developing for a desktop, laptop, application. Not guaranteed to
> be connected to the net, at least all the time. User interface is going to
> be important. Quick response to user interaction. May include a pen driven
> interface. Some manipulation of audio files and graphics. Light database
> requirements, but needed. Creation, positioning, and manipulating of screen
> objects important.
>
> -Gary
>
> ---
> Gary Lunsford
> Portland, OR
>
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. Bryan said:

>>

I really liked
using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and I
did not have to worry about multiple browser support.

<<

I so agree - we have had Java Swing applets in production use by our customers since Swing 1.0 (late 90's). We had an AWT based applet prior to that.

I personally believe that Swing has gotten a very unfair wrap. It is SO much easier to work on a Swing based application than one that runs on top of any web applications framework - and I am including the convention based ones like Rails and Grails.

That being said, we are decreasing our use of applets - we mainly use them for very rich applications that have GUI visio-like things going on (the user is dragging and dropping things onto a canvas and working with them visually).

Gary - if I was starting fresh today on a GUI Java application, I would definitely plan on using Java Web Start as Bryan said. We actually support both (applets or Web Start) - there is no reason you have to use one or the other.

I also would steer clear of SWT as it is not pure Java and not consistent across platforms. Swing performs amazingly well now on modern CPU's and JVM's - there really is no compelling reason to use SWT for a business application.

If this is an application that would need to be supported and maintained by a lot of people over time, I would want to use Java for the core business logic of the application. There are a lot of reasons for this, but I don't want to make this response too lengthy.

If the team is not large and distributed, or if you already have strength with Groovy, I would give a long hard look at Griffon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffon_%28framework%29

I think using something like Griffon would be a great way to build a Java GUI application - but I would want to keep the Groovy usage to just the app-framework scaffolding, as I prefer using Java for the "meat" on those bones.

By the way - you also might want to take a look at the GUI builder in Netbeans (aka "Matisse"?) and also what is in IntelliJ - they are both pretty amazing and help ease the pain of working with Swing layout managers, which is one of the biggest pains in Swing land.

And on the layout manager front, check out MIG Layourt: http://www.miglayout.com/

I have lot of Java/Swing related links saved here (some are dated now!): http://www.delicious.com/sfraser/swing

-Scott


________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. I actually got my start in the Java world working on JSF Web applications
and just recently wrote my first Swing application. I was impressed with how
easy it was to learn, including the advanced topics like tree handling and
drag and drop. It made an excellent desktop application, one of these days I
am going to have to look into using it for Web applications. I agree with
Scott on the NetBeans Swing gui builder. It is really sweet and does a good
job handling the layout, which would definitely be the most tedious part of
Swing if you had to deal with the code manually.

On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 10:49 AM, Scott Fraser <>wrote:

> Bryan said:
>
> >>
>
> I really liked
> using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
> types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
> work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
> majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
> provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and
> I
> did not have to worry about multiple browser support.
>
> <<
>
> I so agree - we have had Java Swing applets in production use by our
> customers since Swing 1.0 (late 90's). We had an AWT based applet prior to
> that.
>
> I personally believe that Swing has gotten a very unfair wrap. It is SO
> much easier to work on a Swing based application than one that runs on top
> of any web applications framework - and I am including the convention based
> ones like Rails and Grails.
>
> That being said, we are decreasing our use of applets - we mainly use them
> for very rich applications that have GUI visio-like things going on (the
> user is dragging and dropping things onto a canvas and working with them
> visually).
>
> Gary - if I was starting fresh today on a GUI Java application, I would
> definitely plan on using Java Web Start as Bryan said. We actually support
> both (applets or Web Start) - there is no reason you have to use one or the
> other.
>
> I also would steer clear of SWT as it is not pure Java and not consistent
> across platforms. Swing performs amazingly well now on modern CPU's and
> JVM's - there really is no compelling reason to use SWT for a business
> application.
>
> If this is an application that would need to be supported and maintained by
> a lot of people over time, I would want to use Java for the core business
> logic of the application. There are a lot of reasons for this, but I don't
> want to make this response too lengthy.
>
> If the team is not large and distributed, or if you already have strength
> with Groovy, I would give a long hard look at Griffon:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffon_%28framework%29
>
> I think using something like Griffon would be a great way to build a Java
> GUI application - but I would want to keep the Groovy usage to just the
> app-framework scaffolding, as I prefer using Java for the "meat" on those
> bones.
>
> By the way - you also might want to take a look at the GUI builder in
> Netbeans (aka "Matisse"?) and also what is in IntelliJ - they are both
> pretty amazing and help ease the pain of working with Swing layout managers,
> which is one of the biggest pains in Swing land.
>
> And on the layout manager front, check out MIG Layourt:
> http://www.miglayout.com/
>
> I have lot of Java/Swing related links saved here (some are dated now!):
> http://www.delicious.com/sfraser/swing
>
> -Scott
>
>
> ________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. > I also would steer clear of SWT as it is not pure Java and not consistent
> across platforms. Swing performs amazingly well now on modern CPU's and JVM's
> - there really is no compelling reason to use SWT for a business application.


"Not pure Java" is the disparaging way of saying "native widgets", and
in my opinion native makes for a better-looking UI. Swing looks better
than it used to, but SWT is still compelling in my opinion. There's a
reasonably popular app out there called 'Eclipse' that is built with SWT.

The Instantiations WindowBuilder tools (now owned by Google and free to
use) make it quick to get started with either toolkit though.

Daniel Kranowski | Business Algorithms, LLC | http://www.bizalgo.com |
(503) 828-1951



_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. >There's a reasonably popular app out there called 'Eclipse' that is built
with SWT.

Not to start a religious war, but I think Eclipse's popularity is largely
because it's free. To me, every Eclipse based app I've had to use looks
horrible and has poor usability. Promoting SWT by way of Eclipse might not
be helping SWT's case much.

Chris


__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5871 (20110213) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. I guess one other option I should have mentioned, but don't have much experience with, is JavaFX. People I know who have worked with it like it a lot. And I keep hearing it referred to as "the future of Java GUI apps". I have also heard some people comment that "in the future if you are building a Java GUI application you will be using JavaFX". Not sure what the reality is yet, but it seems promising for non-consumer facing apps.

-Scott


On Feb 12, 2011, at 7:02 PM, Michael Phoenix wrote:

I actually got my start in the Java world working on JSF Web applications and just recently wrote my first Swing application. I was impressed with how easy it was to learn, including the advanced topics like tree handling and drag and drop. It made an excellent desktop application, one of these days I am going to have to look into using it for Web applications. I agree with Scott on the NetBeans Swing gui builder. It is really sweet and does a good job handling the layout, which would definitely be the most tedious part of Swing if you had to deal with the code manually.

On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 10:49 AM, Scott Fraser <> wrote:
Bryan said:

>>

I really liked
using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and I
did not have to worry about multiple browser support.

<<

I so agree - we have had Java Swing applets in production use by our customers since Swing 1.0 (late 90's). We had an AWT based applet prior to that.

I personally believe that Swing has gotten a very unfair wrap. It is SO much easier to work on a Swing based application than one that runs on top of any web applications framework - and I am including the convention based ones like Rails and Grails.

That being said, we are decreasing our use of applets - we mainly use them for very rich applications that have GUI visio-like things going on (the user is dragging and dropping things onto a canvas and working with them visually).

Gary - if I was starting fresh today on a GUI Java application, I would definitely plan on using Java Web Start as Bryan said. We actually support both (applets or Web Start) - there is no reason you have to use one or the other.

I also would steer clear of SWT as it is not pure Java and not consistent across platforms. Swing performs amazingly well now on modern CPU's and JVM's - there really is no compelling reason to use SWT for a business application.

If this is an application that would need to be supported and maintained by a lot of people over time, I would want to use Java for the core business logic of the application. There are a lot of reasons for this, but I don't want to make this response too lengthy.

If the team is not large and distributed, or if you already have strength with Groovy, I would give a long hard look at Griffon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffon_%28framework%29

I think using something like Griffon would be a great way to build a Java GUI application - but I would want to keep the Groovy usage to just the app-framework scaffolding, as I prefer using Java for the "meat" on those bones.

By the way - you also might want to take a look at the GUI builder in Netbeans (aka "Matisse"?) and also what is in IntelliJ - they are both pretty amazing and help ease the pain of working with Swing layout managers, which is one of the biggest pains in Swing land.

And on the layout manager front, check out MIG Layourt: http://www.miglayout.com/

I have lot of Java/Swing related links saved here (some are dated now!): http://www.delicious.com/sfraser/swing

-Scott


________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe.

Hi all,

I am about to change from middleware development to a new frontend project.
I haven't worked on the Front-end with Java in a while and am wondering
about the status of Java's frontend capabilities. Is Java a good tool with
which to build apps? What is the preferred tool set? Other platform
better? Is the Web Start and other deployment options useful and effective,
good, easy to use?

We will be developing for a desktop, laptop, application. Not guaranteed to
be connected to the net, at least all the time. User interface is going to
be important. Quick response to user interaction. May include a pen driven
interface. Some manipulation of audio files and graphics. Light database
requirements, but needed. Creation, positioning, and manipulating of screen
objects important.

-Gary

---
Gary Lunsford
Portland, OR I have done quite a bit of java SE application development for internal type
applications used on various hardware and OSs including desktops, laptops
and thin clients running Mac, Window, Linux and Solaris. I really liked
using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and I
did not have to worry about multiple browser support. Being the only
developer on the application and not being dedicated to it full time,
removing the cross browser issues and reducing time to implement was huge.

I also used java web start to deploy the application which worked out very
well. I wish Sun had put more effort into continued development of web start
and pushing it as a viable technology. It did work very well for me for
distributing the application across multiple platforms and multiple
geographies without issues. I found there to be a few issues that where a
pain to work through, like "signing" your application tended to cause me
headaches, but once I got it all worked out, it was easy enough.

I looked into using an application framework like Netbeans, and if I where
starting another application now I would likely start with the Netbeans
platform as it will give you a lot of the basic infrastructure of your
application like dockable and adjustable internal widows, right click menus,
etc. I have only explored using the Netbeans platform a little, but was
impressed by what I saw.

If you do go with java web start, there are two important features you
should bake into your app from the start. One is a version number that is
visible when the app starts up and while it is being used. Because the
application will only update when it is launched, I found users would keep
it open for several weeks and I often was not sure what version they where
actually running when discussing an issue.

The second thing I added was to add the version number to the database, with
a major and minor release tag. Then the application would check the database
every so often to see if there was a new release. If there was a new minor
release, the app would alert the user to restart the application when they
could, and then not show the message again until the next day. If there was
a new major release, the application would alert the user then restart. This
would mainly be used if there where changes to the database or something
that could cause major issues if the user continued to use an older version
of the application. This is something I wish was baked into the web start
technology, but is not AFAIK. Even with a relatively small user base, I
found I could not simply send an email asking them to restart in the event
of a major release, so I had to add the system to force the restart.

Thanks,
Bryan



On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 7:01 PM, Gary Lunsford <> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I am about to change from middleware development to a new frontend
> project. I haven't worked on the Front-end with Java in a while and am
> wondering about the status of Java's frontend capabilities. Is Java a good
> tool with which to build apps? What is the preferred tool set? Other
> platform better? Is the Web Start and other deployment options useful and
> effective, good, easy to use?
>
> We will be developing for a desktop, laptop, application. Not guaranteed to
> be connected to the net, at least all the time. User interface is going to
> be important. Quick response to user interaction. May include a pen driven
> interface. Some manipulation of audio files and graphics. Light database
> requirements, but needed. Creation, positioning, and manipulating of screen
> objects important.
>
> -Gary
>
> ---
> Gary Lunsford
> Portland, OR
>
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. Bryan said:

>>

I really liked
using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and I
did not have to worry about multiple browser support.

<<

I so agree - we have had Java Swing applets in production use by our customers since Swing 1.0 (late 90's). We had an AWT based applet prior to that.

I personally believe that Swing has gotten a very unfair wrap. It is SO much easier to work on a Swing based application than one that runs on top of any web applications framework - and I am including the convention based ones like Rails and Grails.

That being said, we are decreasing our use of applets - we mainly use them for very rich applications that have GUI visio-like things going on (the user is dragging and dropping things onto a canvas and working with them visually).

Gary - if I was starting fresh today on a GUI Java application, I would definitely plan on using Java Web Start as Bryan said. We actually support both (applets or Web Start) - there is no reason you have to use one or the other.

I also would steer clear of SWT as it is not pure Java and not consistent across platforms. Swing performs amazingly well now on modern CPU's and JVM's - there really is no compelling reason to use SWT for a business application.

If this is an application that would need to be supported and maintained by a lot of people over time, I would want to use Java for the core business logic of the application. There are a lot of reasons for this, but I don't want to make this response too lengthy.

If the team is not large and distributed, or if you already have strength with Groovy, I would give a long hard look at Griffon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffon_%28framework%29

I think using something like Griffon would be a great way to build a Java GUI application - but I would want to keep the Groovy usage to just the app-framework scaffolding, as I prefer using Java for the "meat" on those bones.

By the way - you also might want to take a look at the GUI builder in Netbeans (aka "Matisse"?) and also what is in IntelliJ - they are both pretty amazing and help ease the pain of working with Swing layout managers, which is one of the biggest pains in Swing land.

And on the layout manager front, check out MIG Layourt: http://www.miglayout.com/

I have lot of Java/Swing related links saved here (some are dated now!): http://www.delicious.com/sfraser/swing

-Scott


________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. I actually got my start in the Java world working on JSF Web applications
and just recently wrote my first Swing application. I was impressed with how
easy it was to learn, including the advanced topics like tree handling and
drag and drop. It made an excellent desktop application, one of these days I
am going to have to look into using it for Web applications. I agree with
Scott on the NetBeans Swing gui builder. It is really sweet and does a good
job handling the layout, which would definitely be the most tedious part of
Swing if you had to deal with the code manually.

On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 10:49 AM, Scott Fraser <>wrote:

> Bryan said:
>
> >>
>
> I really liked
> using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
> types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
> work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
> majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
> provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and
> I
> did not have to worry about multiple browser support.
>
> <<
>
> I so agree - we have had Java Swing applets in production use by our
> customers since Swing 1.0 (late 90's). We had an AWT based applet prior to
> that.
>
> I personally believe that Swing has gotten a very unfair wrap. It is SO
> much easier to work on a Swing based application than one that runs on top
> of any web applications framework - and I am including the convention based
> ones like Rails and Grails.
>
> That being said, we are decreasing our use of applets - we mainly use them
> for very rich applications that have GUI visio-like things going on (the
> user is dragging and dropping things onto a canvas and working with them
> visually).
>
> Gary - if I was starting fresh today on a GUI Java application, I would
> definitely plan on using Java Web Start as Bryan said. We actually support
> both (applets or Web Start) - there is no reason you have to use one or the
> other.
>
> I also would steer clear of SWT as it is not pure Java and not consistent
> across platforms. Swing performs amazingly well now on modern CPU's and
> JVM's - there really is no compelling reason to use SWT for a business
> application.
>
> If this is an application that would need to be supported and maintained by
> a lot of people over time, I would want to use Java for the core business
> logic of the application. There are a lot of reasons for this, but I don't
> want to make this response too lengthy.
>
> If the team is not large and distributed, or if you already have strength
> with Groovy, I would give a long hard look at Griffon:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffon_%28framework%29
>
> I think using something like Griffon would be a great way to build a Java
> GUI application - but I would want to keep the Groovy usage to just the
> app-framework scaffolding, as I prefer using Java for the "meat" on those
> bones.
>
> By the way - you also might want to take a look at the GUI builder in
> Netbeans (aka "Matisse"?) and also what is in IntelliJ - they are both
> pretty amazing and help ease the pain of working with Swing layout managers,
> which is one of the biggest pains in Swing land.
>
> And on the layout manager front, check out MIG Layourt:
> http://www.miglayout.com/
>
> I have lot of Java/Swing related links saved here (some are dated now!):
> http://www.delicious.com/sfraser/swing
>
> -Scott
>
>
> ________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. > I also would steer clear of SWT as it is not pure Java and not consistent
> across platforms. Swing performs amazingly well now on modern CPU's and JVM's
> - there really is no compelling reason to use SWT for a business application.


"Not pure Java" is the disparaging way of saying "native widgets", and
in my opinion native makes for a better-looking UI. Swing looks better
than it used to, but SWT is still compelling in my opinion. There's a
reasonably popular app out there called 'Eclipse' that is built with SWT.

The Instantiations WindowBuilder tools (now owned by Google and free to
use) make it quick to get started with either toolkit though.

Daniel Kranowski | Business Algorithms, LLC | http://www.bizalgo.com |
(503) 828-1951



_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. >There's a reasonably popular app out there called 'Eclipse' that is built
with SWT.

Not to start a religious war, but I think Eclipse's popularity is largely
because it's free. To me, every Eclipse based app I've had to use looks
horrible and has poor usability. Promoting SWT by way of Eclipse might not
be helping SWT's case much.

Chris


__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5871 (20110213) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. I guess one other option I should have mentioned, but don't have much experience with, is JavaFX. People I know who have worked with it like it a lot. And I keep hearing it referred to as "the future of Java GUI apps". I have also heard some people comment that "in the future if you are building a Java GUI application you will be using JavaFX". Not sure what the reality is yet, but it seems promising for non-consumer facing apps.

-Scott


On Feb 12, 2011, at 7:02 PM, Michael Phoenix wrote:

I actually got my start in the Java world working on JSF Web applications and just recently wrote my first Swing application. I was impressed with how easy it was to learn, including the advanced topics like tree handling and drag and drop. It made an excellent desktop application, one of these days I am going to have to look into using it for Web applications. I agree with Scott on the NetBeans Swing gui builder. It is really sweet and does a good job handling the layout, which would definitely be the most tedious part of Swing if you had to deal with the code manually.

On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 10:49 AM, Scott Fraser <> wrote:
Bryan said:

>>

I really liked
using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and I
did not have to worry about multiple browser support.

<<

I so agree - we have had Java Swing applets in production use by our customers since Swing 1.0 (late 90's). We had an AWT based applet prior to that.

I personally believe that Swing has gotten a very unfair wrap. It is SO much easier to work on a Swing based application than one that runs on top of any web applications framework - and I am including the convention based ones like Rails and Grails.

That being said, we are decreasing our use of applets - we mainly use them for very rich applications that have GUI visio-like things going on (the user is dragging and dropping things onto a canvas and working with them visually).

Gary - if I was starting fresh today on a GUI Java application, I would definitely plan on using Java Web Start as Bryan said. We actually support both (applets or Web Start) - there is no reason you have to use one or the other.

I also would steer clear of SWT as it is not pure Java and not consistent across platforms. Swing performs amazingly well now on modern CPU's and JVM's - there really is no compelling reason to use SWT for a business application.

If this is an application that would need to be supported and maintained by a lot of people over time, I would want to use Java for the core business logic of the application. There are a lot of reasons for this, but I don't want to make this response too lengthy.

If the team is not large and distributed, or if you already have strength with Groovy, I would give a long hard look at Griffon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffon_%28framework%29

I think using something like Griffon would be a great way to build a Java GUI application - but I would want to keep the Groovy usage to just the app-framework scaffolding, as I prefer using Java for the "meat" on those bones.

By the way - you also might want to take a look at the GUI builder in Netbeans (aka "Matisse"?) and also what is in IntelliJ - they are both pretty amazing and help ease the pain of working with Swing layout managers, which is one of the biggest pains in Swing land.

And on the layout manager front, check out MIG Layourt: http://www.miglayout.com/

I have lot of Java/Swing related links saved here (some are dated now!): http://www.delicious.com/sfraser/swing

-Scott


________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. On Sunday, February 13, 2011 11:29:54 am Chris Kessel/Lou Doherty wrote:
> >There's a reasonably popular app out there called 'Eclipse' that is built
>
> with SWT.
>
> Not to start a religious war, but I think Eclipse's popularity is largely
> because it's free. To me, every Eclipse based app I've had to use looks
> horrible and has poor usability. Promoting SWT by way of Eclipse might not
> be helping SWT's case much.
>
> Chris

netbeans/swing is free too and it's quite popular but I believe Eclipse trumps
both netbeans & idea.

swt vs swing is a very subjective decision. I have used both ( someone
suggested MigLayout, an excellent layout manager which works with both). swt
lowers the layer of abstraction to give you a more closer to the native UI
feel as compared to swing but you pay for that with complexity.

there are lots of other swt based apps which are also very popular:
1. Vuze ( used to be called Azureus) - one of the most popular bittorrent
clients areound
2. http://www.rssowl.org/
3. http://udig.refractions.net/

probably others floating out there ...
--
Nimret Sandhu
http://www.nimret.com
http://www.nimsoft.biz
_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe.

Hi all,

I am about to change from middleware development to a new frontend project.
I haven't worked on the Front-end with Java in a while and am wondering
about the status of Java's frontend capabilities. Is Java a good tool with
which to build apps? What is the preferred tool set? Other platform
better? Is the Web Start and other deployment options useful and effective,
good, easy to use?

We will be developing for a desktop, laptop, application. Not guaranteed to
be connected to the net, at least all the time. User interface is going to
be important. Quick response to user interaction. May include a pen driven
interface. Some manipulation of audio files and graphics. Light database
requirements, but needed. Creation, positioning, and manipulating of screen
objects important.

-Gary

---
Gary Lunsford
Portland, OR I have done quite a bit of java SE application development for internal type
applications used on various hardware and OSs including desktops, laptops
and thin clients running Mac, Window, Linux and Solaris. I really liked
using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and I
did not have to worry about multiple browser support. Being the only
developer on the application and not being dedicated to it full time,
removing the cross browser issues and reducing time to implement was huge.

I also used java web start to deploy the application which worked out very
well. I wish Sun had put more effort into continued development of web start
and pushing it as a viable technology. It did work very well for me for
distributing the application across multiple platforms and multiple
geographies without issues. I found there to be a few issues that where a
pain to work through, like "signing" your application tended to cause me
headaches, but once I got it all worked out, it was easy enough.

I looked into using an application framework like Netbeans, and if I where
starting another application now I would likely start with the Netbeans
platform as it will give you a lot of the basic infrastructure of your
application like dockable and adjustable internal widows, right click menus,
etc. I have only explored using the Netbeans platform a little, but was
impressed by what I saw.

If you do go with java web start, there are two important features you
should bake into your app from the start. One is a version number that is
visible when the app starts up and while it is being used. Because the
application will only update when it is launched, I found users would keep
it open for several weeks and I often was not sure what version they where
actually running when discussing an issue.

The second thing I added was to add the version number to the database, with
a major and minor release tag. Then the application would check the database
every so often to see if there was a new release. If there was a new minor
release, the app would alert the user to restart the application when they
could, and then not show the message again until the next day. If there was
a new major release, the application would alert the user then restart. This
would mainly be used if there where changes to the database or something
that could cause major issues if the user continued to use an older version
of the application. This is something I wish was baked into the web start
technology, but is not AFAIK. Even with a relatively small user base, I
found I could not simply send an email asking them to restart in the event
of a major release, so I had to add the system to force the restart.

Thanks,
Bryan



On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 7:01 PM, Gary Lunsford <> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I am about to change from middleware development to a new frontend
> project. I haven't worked on the Front-end with Java in a while and am
> wondering about the status of Java's frontend capabilities. Is Java a good
> tool with which to build apps? What is the preferred tool set? Other
> platform better? Is the Web Start and other deployment options useful and
> effective, good, easy to use?
>
> We will be developing for a desktop, laptop, application. Not guaranteed to
> be connected to the net, at least all the time. User interface is going to
> be important. Quick response to user interaction. May include a pen driven
> interface. Some manipulation of audio files and graphics. Light database
> requirements, but needed. Creation, positioning, and manipulating of screen
> objects important.
>
> -Gary
>
> ---
> Gary Lunsford
> Portland, OR
>
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. Bryan said:

>>

I really liked
using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and I
did not have to worry about multiple browser support.

<<

I so agree - we have had Java Swing applets in production use by our customers since Swing 1.0 (late 90's). We had an AWT based applet prior to that.

I personally believe that Swing has gotten a very unfair wrap. It is SO much easier to work on a Swing based application than one that runs on top of any web applications framework - and I am including the convention based ones like Rails and Grails.

That being said, we are decreasing our use of applets - we mainly use them for very rich applications that have GUI visio-like things going on (the user is dragging and dropping things onto a canvas and working with them visually).

Gary - if I was starting fresh today on a GUI Java application, I would definitely plan on using Java Web Start as Bryan said. We actually support both (applets or Web Start) - there is no reason you have to use one or the other.

I also would steer clear of SWT as it is not pure Java and not consistent across platforms. Swing performs amazingly well now on modern CPU's and JVM's - there really is no compelling reason to use SWT for a business application.

If this is an application that would need to be supported and maintained by a lot of people over time, I would want to use Java for the core business logic of the application. There are a lot of reasons for this, but I don't want to make this response too lengthy.

If the team is not large and distributed, or if you already have strength with Groovy, I would give a long hard look at Griffon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffon_%28framework%29

I think using something like Griffon would be a great way to build a Java GUI application - but I would want to keep the Groovy usage to just the app-framework scaffolding, as I prefer using Java for the "meat" on those bones.

By the way - you also might want to take a look at the GUI builder in Netbeans (aka "Matisse"?) and also what is in IntelliJ - they are both pretty amazing and help ease the pain of working with Swing layout managers, which is one of the biggest pains in Swing land.

And on the layout manager front, check out MIG Layourt: http://www.miglayout.com/

I have lot of Java/Swing related links saved here (some are dated now!): http://www.delicious.com/sfraser/swing

-Scott


________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. I actually got my start in the Java world working on JSF Web applications
and just recently wrote my first Swing application. I was impressed with how
easy it was to learn, including the advanced topics like tree handling and
drag and drop. It made an excellent desktop application, one of these days I
am going to have to look into using it for Web applications. I agree with
Scott on the NetBeans Swing gui builder. It is really sweet and does a good
job handling the layout, which would definitely be the most tedious part of
Swing if you had to deal with the code manually.

On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 10:49 AM, Scott Fraser <>wrote:

> Bryan said:
>
> >>
>
> I really liked
> using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
> types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
> work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
> majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
> provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and
> I
> did not have to worry about multiple browser support.
>
> <<
>
> I so agree - we have had Java Swing applets in production use by our
> customers since Swing 1.0 (late 90's). We had an AWT based applet prior to
> that.
>
> I personally believe that Swing has gotten a very unfair wrap. It is SO
> much easier to work on a Swing based application than one that runs on top
> of any web applications framework - and I am including the convention based
> ones like Rails and Grails.
>
> That being said, we are decreasing our use of applets - we mainly use them
> for very rich applications that have GUI visio-like things going on (the
> user is dragging and dropping things onto a canvas and working with them
> visually).
>
> Gary - if I was starting fresh today on a GUI Java application, I would
> definitely plan on using Java Web Start as Bryan said. We actually support
> both (applets or Web Start) - there is no reason you have to use one or the
> other.
>
> I also would steer clear of SWT as it is not pure Java and not consistent
> across platforms. Swing performs amazingly well now on modern CPU's and
> JVM's - there really is no compelling reason to use SWT for a business
> application.
>
> If this is an application that would need to be supported and maintained by
> a lot of people over time, I would want to use Java for the core business
> logic of the application. There are a lot of reasons for this, but I don't
> want to make this response too lengthy.
>
> If the team is not large and distributed, or if you already have strength
> with Groovy, I would give a long hard look at Griffon:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffon_%28framework%29
>
> I think using something like Griffon would be a great way to build a Java
> GUI application - but I would want to keep the Groovy usage to just the
> app-framework scaffolding, as I prefer using Java for the "meat" on those
> bones.
>
> By the way - you also might want to take a look at the GUI builder in
> Netbeans (aka "Matisse"?) and also what is in IntelliJ - they are both
> pretty amazing and help ease the pain of working with Swing layout managers,
> which is one of the biggest pains in Swing land.
>
> And on the layout manager front, check out MIG Layourt:
> http://www.miglayout.com/
>
> I have lot of Java/Swing related links saved here (some are dated now!):
> http://www.delicious.com/sfraser/swing
>
> -Scott
>
>
> ________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. > I also would steer clear of SWT as it is not pure Java and not consistent
> across platforms. Swing performs amazingly well now on modern CPU's and JVM's
> - there really is no compelling reason to use SWT for a business application.


"Not pure Java" is the disparaging way of saying "native widgets", and
in my opinion native makes for a better-looking UI. Swing looks better
than it used to, but SWT is still compelling in my opinion. There's a
reasonably popular app out there called 'Eclipse' that is built with SWT.

The Instantiations WindowBuilder tools (now owned by Google and free to
use) make it quick to get started with either toolkit though.

Daniel Kranowski | Business Algorithms, LLC | http://www.bizalgo.com |
(503) 828-1951



_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. >There's a reasonably popular app out there called 'Eclipse' that is built
with SWT.

Not to start a religious war, but I think Eclipse's popularity is largely
because it's free. To me, every Eclipse based app I've had to use looks
horrible and has poor usability. Promoting SWT by way of Eclipse might not
be helping SWT's case much.

Chris


__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5871 (20110213) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. I guess one other option I should have mentioned, but don't have much experience with, is JavaFX. People I know who have worked with it like it a lot. And I keep hearing it referred to as "the future of Java GUI apps". I have also heard some people comment that "in the future if you are building a Java GUI application you will be using JavaFX". Not sure what the reality is yet, but it seems promising for non-consumer facing apps.

-Scott


On Feb 12, 2011, at 7:02 PM, Michael Phoenix wrote:

I actually got my start in the Java world working on JSF Web applications and just recently wrote my first Swing application. I was impressed with how easy it was to learn, including the advanced topics like tree handling and drag and drop. It made an excellent desktop application, one of these days I am going to have to look into using it for Web applications. I agree with Scott on the NetBeans Swing gui builder. It is really sweet and does a good job handling the layout, which would definitely be the most tedious part of Swing if you had to deal with the code manually.

On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 10:49 AM, Scott Fraser <> wrote:
Bryan said:

>>

I really liked
using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and I
did not have to worry about multiple browser support.

<<

I so agree - we have had Java Swing applets in production use by our customers since Swing 1.0 (late 90's). We had an AWT based applet prior to that.

I personally believe that Swing has gotten a very unfair wrap. It is SO much easier to work on a Swing based application than one that runs on top of any web applications framework - and I am including the convention based ones like Rails and Grails.

That being said, we are decreasing our use of applets - we mainly use them for very rich applications that have GUI visio-like things going on (the user is dragging and dropping things onto a canvas and working with them visually).

Gary - if I was starting fresh today on a GUI Java application, I would definitely plan on using Java Web Start as Bryan said. We actually support both (applets or Web Start) - there is no reason you have to use one or the other.

I also would steer clear of SWT as it is not pure Java and not consistent across platforms. Swing performs amazingly well now on modern CPU's and JVM's - there really is no compelling reason to use SWT for a business application.

If this is an application that would need to be supported and maintained by a lot of people over time, I would want to use Java for the core business logic of the application. There are a lot of reasons for this, but I don't want to make this response too lengthy.

If the team is not large and distributed, or if you already have strength with Groovy, I would give a long hard look at Griffon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffon_%28framework%29

I think using something like Griffon would be a great way to build a Java GUI application - but I would want to keep the Groovy usage to just the app-framework scaffolding, as I prefer using Java for the "meat" on those bones.

By the way - you also might want to take a look at the GUI builder in Netbeans (aka "Matisse"?) and also what is in IntelliJ - they are both pretty amazing and help ease the pain of working with Swing layout managers, which is one of the biggest pains in Swing land.

And on the layout manager front, check out MIG Layourt: http://www.miglayout.com/

I have lot of Java/Swing related links saved here (some are dated now!): http://www.delicious.com/sfraser/swing

-Scott


________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. On Sunday, February 13, 2011 11:29:54 am Chris Kessel/Lou Doherty wrote:
> >There's a reasonably popular app out there called 'Eclipse' that is built
>
> with SWT.
>
> Not to start a religious war, but I think Eclipse's popularity is largely
> because it's free. To me, every Eclipse based app I've had to use looks
> horrible and has poor usability. Promoting SWT by way of Eclipse might not
> be helping SWT's case much.
>
> Chris

netbeans/swing is free too and it's quite popular but I believe Eclipse trumps
both netbeans & idea.

swt vs swing is a very subjective decision. I have used both ( someone
suggested MigLayout, an excellent layout manager which works with both). swt
lowers the layer of abstraction to give you a more closer to the native UI
feel as compared to swing but you pay for that with complexity.

there are lots of other swt based apps which are also very popular:
1. Vuze ( used to be called Azureus) - one of the most popular bittorrent
clients areound
2. http://www.rssowl.org/
3. http://udig.refractions.net/

probably others floating out there ...
--
Nimret Sandhu
http://www.nimret.com
http://www.nimsoft.biz
_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. I used FX a bit a while back and was really quite impressed. However, when
Oracle took over they really hit the brakes and executed a rapid interstate
change, dramatically changing the course of development with FX. FX is not
dead, but just getting back up to speed with its new direction.

The main change seems to be removing the separate FX script in favor of
doing all the work in straight Java code. I have heard many things in favor
of and against this change, but it's to early to tell how it will work out
yet. I have high hopes however.

The alpha for FX 2.0 is due out soon (this month I think if it is not
already) but it is still in alpha state.

-Bryan

On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 12:47 PM, Scott Fraser <>wrote:

> I guess one other option I should have mentioned, but don't have much
> experience with, is JavaFX. People I know who have worked with it like it a
> lot. And I keep hearing it referred to as "the future of Java GUI apps". I
> have also heard some people comment that "in the future if you are building
> a Java GUI application you will be using JavaFX". Not sure what the reality
> is yet, but it seems promising for non-consumer facing apps.
>
> -Scott
>
>
> On Feb 12, 2011, at 7:02 PM, Michael Phoenix wrote:
>
> I actually got my start in the Java world working on JSF Web applications
> and just recently wrote my first Swing application. I was impressed with how
> easy it was to learn, including the advanced topics like tree handling and
> drag and drop. It made an excellent desktop application, one of these days I
> am going to have to look into using it for Web applications. I agree with
> Scott on the NetBeans Swing gui builder. It is really sweet and does a good
> job handling the layout, which would definitely be the most tedious part of
> Swing if you had to deal with the code manually.
>
> On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 10:49 AM, Scott Fraser <
> > wrote:
> Bryan said:
>
> >>
>
> I really liked
> using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
> types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
> work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
> majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
> provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and
> I
> did not have to worry about multiple browser support.
>
> <<
>
> I so agree - we have had Java Swing applets in production use by our
> customers since Swing 1.0 (late 90's). We had an AWT based applet prior to
> that.
>
> I personally believe that Swing has gotten a very unfair wrap. It is SO
> much easier to work on a Swing based application than one that runs on top
> of any web applications framework - and I am including the convention based
> ones like Rails and Grails.
>
> That being said, we are decreasing our use of applets - we mainly use them
> for very rich applications that have GUI visio-like things going on (the
> user is dragging and dropping things onto a canvas and working with them
> visually).
>
> Gary - if I was starting fresh today on a GUI Java application, I would
> definitely plan on using Java Web Start as Bryan said. We actually support
> both (applets or Web Start) - there is no reason you have to use one or the
> other.
>
> I also would steer clear of SWT as it is not pure Java and not consistent
> across platforms. Swing performs amazingly well now on modern CPU's and
> JVM's - there really is no compelling reason to use SWT for a business
> application.
>
> If this is an application that would need to be supported and maintained by
> a lot of people over time, I would want to use Java for the core business
> logic of the application. There are a lot of reasons for this, but I don't
> want to make this response too lengthy.
>
> If the team is not large and distributed, or if you already have strength
> with Groovy, I would give a long hard look at Griffon:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffon_%28framework%29
>
> I think using something like Griffon would be a great way to build a Java
> GUI application - but I would want to keep the Groovy usage to just the
> app-framework scaffolding, as I prefer using Java for the "meat" on those
> bones.
>
> By the way - you also might want to take a look at the GUI builder in
> Netbeans (aka "Matisse"?) and also what is in IntelliJ - they are both
> pretty amazing and help ease the pain of working with Swing layout managers,
> which is one of the biggest pains in Swing land.
>
> And on the layout manager front, check out MIG Layourt:
> http://www.miglayout.com/
>
> I have lot of Java/Swing related links saved here (some are dated now!):
> http://www.delicious.com/sfraser/swing
>
> -Scott
>
>
> ________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe.

Hi all,

I am about to change from middleware development to a new frontend project.
I haven't worked on the Front-end with Java in a while and am wondering
about the status of Java's frontend capabilities. Is Java a good tool with
which to build apps? What is the preferred tool set? Other platform
better? Is the Web Start and other deployment options useful and effective,
good, easy to use?

We will be developing for a desktop, laptop, application. Not guaranteed to
be connected to the net, at least all the time. User interface is going to
be important. Quick response to user interaction. May include a pen driven
interface. Some manipulation of audio files and graphics. Light database
requirements, but needed. Creation, positioning, and manipulating of screen
objects important.

-Gary

---
Gary Lunsford
Portland, OR I have done quite a bit of java SE application development for internal type
applications used on various hardware and OSs including desktops, laptops
and thin clients running Mac, Window, Linux and Solaris. I really liked
using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and I
did not have to worry about multiple browser support. Being the only
developer on the application and not being dedicated to it full time,
removing the cross browser issues and reducing time to implement was huge.

I also used java web start to deploy the application which worked out very
well. I wish Sun had put more effort into continued development of web start
and pushing it as a viable technology. It did work very well for me for
distributing the application across multiple platforms and multiple
geographies without issues. I found there to be a few issues that where a
pain to work through, like "signing" your application tended to cause me
headaches, but once I got it all worked out, it was easy enough.

I looked into using an application framework like Netbeans, and if I where
starting another application now I would likely start with the Netbeans
platform as it will give you a lot of the basic infrastructure of your
application like dockable and adjustable internal widows, right click menus,
etc. I have only explored using the Netbeans platform a little, but was
impressed by what I saw.

If you do go with java web start, there are two important features you
should bake into your app from the start. One is a version number that is
visible when the app starts up and while it is being used. Because the
application will only update when it is launched, I found users would keep
it open for several weeks and I often was not sure what version they where
actually running when discussing an issue.

The second thing I added was to add the version number to the database, with
a major and minor release tag. Then the application would check the database
every so often to see if there was a new release. If there was a new minor
release, the app would alert the user to restart the application when they
could, and then not show the message again until the next day. If there was
a new major release, the application would alert the user then restart. This
would mainly be used if there where changes to the database or something
that could cause major issues if the user continued to use an older version
of the application. This is something I wish was baked into the web start
technology, but is not AFAIK. Even with a relatively small user base, I
found I could not simply send an email asking them to restart in the event
of a major release, so I had to add the system to force the restart.

Thanks,
Bryan



On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 7:01 PM, Gary Lunsford <> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I am about to change from middleware development to a new frontend
> project. I haven't worked on the Front-end with Java in a while and am
> wondering about the status of Java's frontend capabilities. Is Java a good
> tool with which to build apps? What is the preferred tool set? Other
> platform better? Is the Web Start and other deployment options useful and
> effective, good, easy to use?
>
> We will be developing for a desktop, laptop, application. Not guaranteed to
> be connected to the net, at least all the time. User interface is going to
> be important. Quick response to user interaction. May include a pen driven
> interface. Some manipulation of audio files and graphics. Light database
> requirements, but needed. Creation, positioning, and manipulating of screen
> objects important.
>
> -Gary
>
> ---
> Gary Lunsford
> Portland, OR
>
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. Bryan said:

>>

I really liked
using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and I
did not have to worry about multiple browser support.

<<

I so agree - we have had Java Swing applets in production use by our customers since Swing 1.0 (late 90's). We had an AWT based applet prior to that.

I personally believe that Swing has gotten a very unfair wrap. It is SO much easier to work on a Swing based application than one that runs on top of any web applications framework - and I am including the convention based ones like Rails and Grails.

That being said, we are decreasing our use of applets - we mainly use them for very rich applications that have GUI visio-like things going on (the user is dragging and dropping things onto a canvas and working with them visually).

Gary - if I was starting fresh today on a GUI Java application, I would definitely plan on using Java Web Start as Bryan said. We actually support both (applets or Web Start) - there is no reason you have to use one or the other.

I also would steer clear of SWT as it is not pure Java and not consistent across platforms. Swing performs amazingly well now on modern CPU's and JVM's - there really is no compelling reason to use SWT for a business application.

If this is an application that would need to be supported and maintained by a lot of people over time, I would want to use Java for the core business logic of the application. There are a lot of reasons for this, but I don't want to make this response too lengthy.

If the team is not large and distributed, or if you already have strength with Groovy, I would give a long hard look at Griffon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffon_%28framework%29

I think using something like Griffon would be a great way to build a Java GUI application - but I would want to keep the Groovy usage to just the app-framework scaffolding, as I prefer using Java for the "meat" on those bones.

By the way - you also might want to take a look at the GUI builder in Netbeans (aka "Matisse"?) and also what is in IntelliJ - they are both pretty amazing and help ease the pain of working with Swing layout managers, which is one of the biggest pains in Swing land.

And on the layout manager front, check out MIG Layourt: http://www.miglayout.com/

I have lot of Java/Swing related links saved here (some are dated now!): http://www.delicious.com/sfraser/swing

-Scott


________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. I actually got my start in the Java world working on JSF Web applications
and just recently wrote my first Swing application. I was impressed with how
easy it was to learn, including the advanced topics like tree handling and
drag and drop. It made an excellent desktop application, one of these days I
am going to have to look into using it for Web applications. I agree with
Scott on the NetBeans Swing gui builder. It is really sweet and does a good
job handling the layout, which would definitely be the most tedious part of
Swing if you had to deal with the code manually.

On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 10:49 AM, Scott Fraser <>wrote:

> Bryan said:
>
> >>
>
> I really liked
> using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
> types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
> work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
> majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
> provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and
> I
> did not have to worry about multiple browser support.
>
> <<
>
> I so agree - we have had Java Swing applets in production use by our
> customers since Swing 1.0 (late 90's). We had an AWT based applet prior to
> that.
>
> I personally believe that Swing has gotten a very unfair wrap. It is SO
> much easier to work on a Swing based application than one that runs on top
> of any web applications framework - and I am including the convention based
> ones like Rails and Grails.
>
> That being said, we are decreasing our use of applets - we mainly use them
> for very rich applications that have GUI visio-like things going on (the
> user is dragging and dropping things onto a canvas and working with them
> visually).
>
> Gary - if I was starting fresh today on a GUI Java application, I would
> definitely plan on using Java Web Start as Bryan said. We actually support
> both (applets or Web Start) - there is no reason you have to use one or the
> other.
>
> I also would steer clear of SWT as it is not pure Java and not consistent
> across platforms. Swing performs amazingly well now on modern CPU's and
> JVM's - there really is no compelling reason to use SWT for a business
> application.
>
> If this is an application that would need to be supported and maintained by
> a lot of people over time, I would want to use Java for the core business
> logic of the application. There are a lot of reasons for this, but I don't
> want to make this response too lengthy.
>
> If the team is not large and distributed, or if you already have strength
> with Groovy, I would give a long hard look at Griffon:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffon_%28framework%29
>
> I think using something like Griffon would be a great way to build a Java
> GUI application - but I would want to keep the Groovy usage to just the
> app-framework scaffolding, as I prefer using Java for the "meat" on those
> bones.
>
> By the way - you also might want to take a look at the GUI builder in
> Netbeans (aka "Matisse"?) and also what is in IntelliJ - they are both
> pretty amazing and help ease the pain of working with Swing layout managers,
> which is one of the biggest pains in Swing land.
>
> And on the layout manager front, check out MIG Layourt:
> http://www.miglayout.com/
>
> I have lot of Java/Swing related links saved here (some are dated now!):
> http://www.delicious.com/sfraser/swing
>
> -Scott
>
>
> ________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. > I also would steer clear of SWT as it is not pure Java and not consistent
> across platforms. Swing performs amazingly well now on modern CPU's and JVM's
> - there really is no compelling reason to use SWT for a business application.


"Not pure Java" is the disparaging way of saying "native widgets", and
in my opinion native makes for a better-looking UI. Swing looks better
than it used to, but SWT is still compelling in my opinion. There's a
reasonably popular app out there called 'Eclipse' that is built with SWT.

The Instantiations WindowBuilder tools (now owned by Google and free to
use) make it quick to get started with either toolkit though.

Daniel Kranowski | Business Algorithms, LLC | http://www.bizalgo.com |
(503) 828-1951



_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. >There's a reasonably popular app out there called 'Eclipse' that is built
with SWT.

Not to start a religious war, but I think Eclipse's popularity is largely
because it's free. To me, every Eclipse based app I've had to use looks
horrible and has poor usability. Promoting SWT by way of Eclipse might not
be helping SWT's case much.

Chris


__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5871 (20110213) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. I guess one other option I should have mentioned, but don't have much experience with, is JavaFX. People I know who have worked with it like it a lot. And I keep hearing it referred to as "the future of Java GUI apps". I have also heard some people comment that "in the future if you are building a Java GUI application you will be using JavaFX". Not sure what the reality is yet, but it seems promising for non-consumer facing apps.

-Scott


On Feb 12, 2011, at 7:02 PM, Michael Phoenix wrote:

I actually got my start in the Java world working on JSF Web applications and just recently wrote my first Swing application. I was impressed with how easy it was to learn, including the advanced topics like tree handling and drag and drop. It made an excellent desktop application, one of these days I am going to have to look into using it for Web applications. I agree with Scott on the NetBeans Swing gui builder. It is really sweet and does a good job handling the layout, which would definitely be the most tedious part of Swing if you had to deal with the code manually.

On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 10:49 AM, Scott Fraser <> wrote:
Bryan said:

>>

I really liked
using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and I
did not have to worry about multiple browser support.

<<

I so agree - we have had Java Swing applets in production use by our customers since Swing 1.0 (late 90's). We had an AWT based applet prior to that.

I personally believe that Swing has gotten a very unfair wrap. It is SO much easier to work on a Swing based application than one that runs on top of any web applications framework - and I am including the convention based ones like Rails and Grails.

That being said, we are decreasing our use of applets - we mainly use them for very rich applications that have GUI visio-like things going on (the user is dragging and dropping things onto a canvas and working with them visually).

Gary - if I was starting fresh today on a GUI Java application, I would definitely plan on using Java Web Start as Bryan said. We actually support both (applets or Web Start) - there is no reason you have to use one or the other.

I also would steer clear of SWT as it is not pure Java and not consistent across platforms. Swing performs amazingly well now on modern CPU's and JVM's - there really is no compelling reason to use SWT for a business application.

If this is an application that would need to be supported and maintained by a lot of people over time, I would want to use Java for the core business logic of the application. There are a lot of reasons for this, but I don't want to make this response too lengthy.

If the team is not large and distributed, or if you already have strength with Groovy, I would give a long hard look at Griffon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffon_%28framework%29

I think using something like Griffon would be a great way to build a Java GUI application - but I would want to keep the Groovy usage to just the app-framework scaffolding, as I prefer using Java for the "meat" on those bones.

By the way - you also might want to take a look at the GUI builder in Netbeans (aka "Matisse"?) and also what is in IntelliJ - they are both pretty amazing and help ease the pain of working with Swing layout managers, which is one of the biggest pains in Swing land.

And on the layout manager front, check out MIG Layourt: http://www.miglayout.com/

I have lot of Java/Swing related links saved here (some are dated now!): http://www.delicious.com/sfraser/swing

-Scott


________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. On Sunday, February 13, 2011 11:29:54 am Chris Kessel/Lou Doherty wrote:
> >There's a reasonably popular app out there called 'Eclipse' that is built
>
> with SWT.
>
> Not to start a religious war, but I think Eclipse's popularity is largely
> because it's free. To me, every Eclipse based app I've had to use looks
> horrible and has poor usability. Promoting SWT by way of Eclipse might not
> be helping SWT's case much.
>
> Chris

netbeans/swing is free too and it's quite popular but I believe Eclipse trumps
both netbeans & idea.

swt vs swing is a very subjective decision. I have used both ( someone
suggested MigLayout, an excellent layout manager which works with both). swt
lowers the layer of abstraction to give you a more closer to the native UI
feel as compared to swing but you pay for that with complexity.

there are lots of other swt based apps which are also very popular:
1. Vuze ( used to be called Azureus) - one of the most popular bittorrent
clients areound
2. http://www.rssowl.org/
3. http://udig.refractions.net/

probably others floating out there ...
--
Nimret Sandhu
http://www.nimret.com
http://www.nimsoft.biz
_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. I used FX a bit a while back and was really quite impressed. However, when
Oracle took over they really hit the brakes and executed a rapid interstate
change, dramatically changing the course of development with FX. FX is not
dead, but just getting back up to speed with its new direction.

The main change seems to be removing the separate FX script in favor of
doing all the work in straight Java code. I have heard many things in favor
of and against this change, but it's to early to tell how it will work out
yet. I have high hopes however.

The alpha for FX 2.0 is due out soon (this month I think if it is not
already) but it is still in alpha state.

-Bryan

On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 12:47 PM, Scott Fraser <>wrote:

> I guess one other option I should have mentioned, but don't have much
> experience with, is JavaFX. People I know who have worked with it like it a
> lot. And I keep hearing it referred to as "the future of Java GUI apps". I
> have also heard some people comment that "in the future if you are building
> a Java GUI application you will be using JavaFX". Not sure what the reality
> is yet, but it seems promising for non-consumer facing apps.
>
> -Scott
>
>
> On Feb 12, 2011, at 7:02 PM, Michael Phoenix wrote:
>
> I actually got my start in the Java world working on JSF Web applications
> and just recently wrote my first Swing application. I was impressed with how
> easy it was to learn, including the advanced topics like tree handling and
> drag and drop. It made an excellent desktop application, one of these days I
> am going to have to look into using it for Web applications. I agree with
> Scott on the NetBeans Swing gui builder. It is really sweet and does a good
> job handling the layout, which would definitely be the most tedious part of
> Swing if you had to deal with the code manually.
>
> On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 10:49 AM, Scott Fraser <
> > wrote:
> Bryan said:
>
> >>
>
> I really liked
> using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
> types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
> work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
> majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
> provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and
> I
> did not have to worry about multiple browser support.
>
> <<
>
> I so agree - we have had Java Swing applets in production use by our
> customers since Swing 1.0 (late 90's). We had an AWT based applet prior to
> that.
>
> I personally believe that Swing has gotten a very unfair wrap. It is SO
> much easier to work on a Swing based application than one that runs on top
> of any web applications framework - and I am including the convention based
> ones like Rails and Grails.
>
> That being said, we are decreasing our use of applets - we mainly use them
> for very rich applications that have GUI visio-like things going on (the
> user is dragging and dropping things onto a canvas and working with them
> visually).
>
> Gary - if I was starting fresh today on a GUI Java application, I would
> definitely plan on using Java Web Start as Bryan said. We actually support
> both (applets or Web Start) - there is no reason you have to use one or the
> other.
>
> I also would steer clear of SWT as it is not pure Java and not consistent
> across platforms. Swing performs amazingly well now on modern CPU's and
> JVM's - there really is no compelling reason to use SWT for a business
> application.
>
> If this is an application that would need to be supported and maintained by
> a lot of people over time, I would want to use Java for the core business
> logic of the application. There are a lot of reasons for this, but I don't
> want to make this response too lengthy.
>
> If the team is not large and distributed, or if you already have strength
> with Groovy, I would give a long hard look at Griffon:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffon_%28framework%29
>
> I think using something like Griffon would be a great way to build a Java
> GUI application - but I would want to keep the Groovy usage to just the
> app-framework scaffolding, as I prefer using Java for the "meat" on those
> bones.
>
> By the way - you also might want to take a look at the GUI builder in
> Netbeans (aka "Matisse"?) and also what is in IntelliJ - they are both
> pretty amazing and help ease the pain of working with Swing layout managers,
> which is one of the biggest pains in Swing land.
>
> And on the layout manager front, check out MIG Layourt:
> http://www.miglayout.com/
>
> I have lot of Java/Swing related links saved here (some are dated now!):
> http://www.delicious.com/sfraser/swing
>
> -Scott
>
>
> ________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. Maybe another answer to the original poster's question about Java UI
frontend tools is that Java has a nearly overwhelming array of options
for front-end design. It could be handy to have a table where each
technology is appraised by:

- Aesthetics (so objective!)
- Portability
- Richness of widget library
- Ease of development, debugging, deployment

....any such table would have to be recognized as a biased set of
anecdotes, but why not make one? Since there are so many valuable
opinions out there, we could have a PJUG meeting where everyone offers
feedback on the topic collaboratively, say with a few prepared demos on
different technologies, and we send out a result table to the mailing
list. We could easily use up two meetings on this, one for desktop and
one for web front ends.

All this after Scott Fraser comes and gives us a talk. Thank you very
much for offering!


--

Daniel Kranowski | Business Algorithms, LLC | http://www.bizalgo.com |
(503) 828-1951


_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe.

Hi all,

I am about to change from middleware development to a new frontend project.
I haven't worked on the Front-end with Java in a while and am wondering
about the status of Java's frontend capabilities. Is Java a good tool with
which to build apps? What is the preferred tool set? Other platform
better? Is the Web Start and other deployment options useful and effective,
good, easy to use?

We will be developing for a desktop, laptop, application. Not guaranteed to
be connected to the net, at least all the time. User interface is going to
be important. Quick response to user interaction. May include a pen driven
interface. Some manipulation of audio files and graphics. Light database
requirements, but needed. Creation, positioning, and manipulating of screen
objects important.

-Gary

---
Gary Lunsford
Portland, OR I have done quite a bit of java SE application development for internal type
applications used on various hardware and OSs including desktops, laptops
and thin clients running Mac, Window, Linux and Solaris. I really liked
using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and I
did not have to worry about multiple browser support. Being the only
developer on the application and not being dedicated to it full time,
removing the cross browser issues and reducing time to implement was huge.

I also used java web start to deploy the application which worked out very
well. I wish Sun had put more effort into continued development of web start
and pushing it as a viable technology. It did work very well for me for
distributing the application across multiple platforms and multiple
geographies without issues. I found there to be a few issues that where a
pain to work through, like "signing" your application tended to cause me
headaches, but once I got it all worked out, it was easy enough.

I looked into using an application framework like Netbeans, and if I where
starting another application now I would likely start with the Netbeans
platform as it will give you a lot of the basic infrastructure of your
application like dockable and adjustable internal widows, right click menus,
etc. I have only explored using the Netbeans platform a little, but was
impressed by what I saw.

If you do go with java web start, there are two important features you
should bake into your app from the start. One is a version number that is
visible when the app starts up and while it is being used. Because the
application will only update when it is launched, I found users would keep
it open for several weeks and I often was not sure what version they where
actually running when discussing an issue.

The second thing I added was to add the version number to the database, with
a major and minor release tag. Then the application would check the database
every so often to see if there was a new release. If there was a new minor
release, the app would alert the user to restart the application when they
could, and then not show the message again until the next day. If there was
a new major release, the application would alert the user then restart. This
would mainly be used if there where changes to the database or something
that could cause major issues if the user continued to use an older version
of the application. This is something I wish was baked into the web start
technology, but is not AFAIK. Even with a relatively small user base, I
found I could not simply send an email asking them to restart in the event
of a major release, so I had to add the system to force the restart.

Thanks,
Bryan



On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 7:01 PM, Gary Lunsford <> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I am about to change from middleware development to a new frontend
> project. I haven't worked on the Front-end with Java in a while and am
> wondering about the status of Java's frontend capabilities. Is Java a good
> tool with which to build apps? What is the preferred tool set? Other
> platform better? Is the Web Start and other deployment options useful and
> effective, good, easy to use?
>
> We will be developing for a desktop, laptop, application. Not guaranteed to
> be connected to the net, at least all the time. User interface is going to
> be important. Quick response to user interaction. May include a pen driven
> interface. Some manipulation of audio files and graphics. Light database
> requirements, but needed. Creation, positioning, and manipulating of screen
> objects important.
>
> -Gary
>
> ---
> Gary Lunsford
> Portland, OR
>
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. Bryan said:

>>

I really liked
using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and I
did not have to worry about multiple browser support.

<<

I so agree - we have had Java Swing applets in production use by our customers since Swing 1.0 (late 90's). We had an AWT based applet prior to that.

I personally believe that Swing has gotten a very unfair wrap. It is SO much easier to work on a Swing based application than one that runs on top of any web applications framework - and I am including the convention based ones like Rails and Grails.

That being said, we are decreasing our use of applets - we mainly use them for very rich applications that have GUI visio-like things going on (the user is dragging and dropping things onto a canvas and working with them visually).

Gary - if I was starting fresh today on a GUI Java application, I would definitely plan on using Java Web Start as Bryan said. We actually support both (applets or Web Start) - there is no reason you have to use one or the other.

I also would steer clear of SWT as it is not pure Java and not consistent across platforms. Swing performs amazingly well now on modern CPU's and JVM's - there really is no compelling reason to use SWT for a business application.

If this is an application that would need to be supported and maintained by a lot of people over time, I would want to use Java for the core business logic of the application. There are a lot of reasons for this, but I don't want to make this response too lengthy.

If the team is not large and distributed, or if you already have strength with Groovy, I would give a long hard look at Griffon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffon_%28framework%29

I think using something like Griffon would be a great way to build a Java GUI application - but I would want to keep the Groovy usage to just the app-framework scaffolding, as I prefer using Java for the "meat" on those bones.

By the way - you also might want to take a look at the GUI builder in Netbeans (aka "Matisse"?) and also what is in IntelliJ - they are both pretty amazing and help ease the pain of working with Swing layout managers, which is one of the biggest pains in Swing land.

And on the layout manager front, check out MIG Layourt: http://www.miglayout.com/

I have lot of Java/Swing related links saved here (some are dated now!): http://www.delicious.com/sfraser/swing

-Scott


________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. I actually got my start in the Java world working on JSF Web applications
and just recently wrote my first Swing application. I was impressed with how
easy it was to learn, including the advanced topics like tree handling and
drag and drop. It made an excellent desktop application, one of these days I
am going to have to look into using it for Web applications. I agree with
Scott on the NetBeans Swing gui builder. It is really sweet and does a good
job handling the layout, which would definitely be the most tedious part of
Swing if you had to deal with the code manually.

On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 10:49 AM, Scott Fraser <>wrote:

> Bryan said:
>
> >>
>
> I really liked
> using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
> types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
> work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
> majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
> provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and
> I
> did not have to worry about multiple browser support.
>
> <<
>
> I so agree - we have had Java Swing applets in production use by our
> customers since Swing 1.0 (late 90's). We had an AWT based applet prior to
> that.
>
> I personally believe that Swing has gotten a very unfair wrap. It is SO
> much easier to work on a Swing based application than one that runs on top
> of any web applications framework - and I am including the convention based
> ones like Rails and Grails.
>
> That being said, we are decreasing our use of applets - we mainly use them
> for very rich applications that have GUI visio-like things going on (the
> user is dragging and dropping things onto a canvas and working with them
> visually).
>
> Gary - if I was starting fresh today on a GUI Java application, I would
> definitely plan on using Java Web Start as Bryan said. We actually support
> both (applets or Web Start) - there is no reason you have to use one or the
> other.
>
> I also would steer clear of SWT as it is not pure Java and not consistent
> across platforms. Swing performs amazingly well now on modern CPU's and
> JVM's - there really is no compelling reason to use SWT for a business
> application.
>
> If this is an application that would need to be supported and maintained by
> a lot of people over time, I would want to use Java for the core business
> logic of the application. There are a lot of reasons for this, but I don't
> want to make this response too lengthy.
>
> If the team is not large and distributed, or if you already have strength
> with Groovy, I would give a long hard look at Griffon:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffon_%28framework%29
>
> I think using something like Griffon would be a great way to build a Java
> GUI application - but I would want to keep the Groovy usage to just the
> app-framework scaffolding, as I prefer using Java for the "meat" on those
> bones.
>
> By the way - you also might want to take a look at the GUI builder in
> Netbeans (aka "Matisse"?) and also what is in IntelliJ - they are both
> pretty amazing and help ease the pain of working with Swing layout managers,
> which is one of the biggest pains in Swing land.
>
> And on the layout manager front, check out MIG Layourt:
> http://www.miglayout.com/
>
> I have lot of Java/Swing related links saved here (some are dated now!):
> http://www.delicious.com/sfraser/swing
>
> -Scott
>
>
> ________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. > I also would steer clear of SWT as it is not pure Java and not consistent
> across platforms. Swing performs amazingly well now on modern CPU's and JVM's
> - there really is no compelling reason to use SWT for a business application.


"Not pure Java" is the disparaging way of saying "native widgets", and
in my opinion native makes for a better-looking UI. Swing looks better
than it used to, but SWT is still compelling in my opinion. There's a
reasonably popular app out there called 'Eclipse' that is built with SWT.

The Instantiations WindowBuilder tools (now owned by Google and free to
use) make it quick to get started with either toolkit though.

Daniel Kranowski | Business Algorithms, LLC | http://www.bizalgo.com |
(503) 828-1951



_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. >There's a reasonably popular app out there called 'Eclipse' that is built
with SWT.

Not to start a religious war, but I think Eclipse's popularity is largely
because it's free. To me, every Eclipse based app I've had to use looks
horrible and has poor usability. Promoting SWT by way of Eclipse might not
be helping SWT's case much.

Chris


__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5871 (20110213) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. I guess one other option I should have mentioned, but don't have much experience with, is JavaFX. People I know who have worked with it like it a lot. And I keep hearing it referred to as "the future of Java GUI apps". I have also heard some people comment that "in the future if you are building a Java GUI application you will be using JavaFX". Not sure what the reality is yet, but it seems promising for non-consumer facing apps.

-Scott


On Feb 12, 2011, at 7:02 PM, Michael Phoenix wrote:

I actually got my start in the Java world working on JSF Web applications and just recently wrote my first Swing application. I was impressed with how easy it was to learn, including the advanced topics like tree handling and drag and drop. It made an excellent desktop application, one of these days I am going to have to look into using it for Web applications. I agree with Scott on the NetBeans Swing gui builder. It is really sweet and does a good job handling the layout, which would definitely be the most tedious part of Swing if you had to deal with the code manually.

On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 10:49 AM, Scott Fraser <> wrote:
Bryan said:

>>

I really liked
using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and I
did not have to worry about multiple browser support.

<<

I so agree - we have had Java Swing applets in production use by our customers since Swing 1.0 (late 90's). We had an AWT based applet prior to that.

I personally believe that Swing has gotten a very unfair wrap. It is SO much easier to work on a Swing based application than one that runs on top of any web applications framework - and I am including the convention based ones like Rails and Grails.

That being said, we are decreasing our use of applets - we mainly use them for very rich applications that have GUI visio-like things going on (the user is dragging and dropping things onto a canvas and working with them visually).

Gary - if I was starting fresh today on a GUI Java application, I would definitely plan on using Java Web Start as Bryan said. We actually support both (applets or Web Start) - there is no reason you have to use one or the other.

I also would steer clear of SWT as it is not pure Java and not consistent across platforms. Swing performs amazingly well now on modern CPU's and JVM's - there really is no compelling reason to use SWT for a business application.

If this is an application that would need to be supported and maintained by a lot of people over time, I would want to use Java for the core business logic of the application. There are a lot of reasons for this, but I don't want to make this response too lengthy.

If the team is not large and distributed, or if you already have strength with Groovy, I would give a long hard look at Griffon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffon_%28framework%29

I think using something like Griffon would be a great way to build a Java GUI application - but I would want to keep the Groovy usage to just the app-framework scaffolding, as I prefer using Java for the "meat" on those bones.

By the way - you also might want to take a look at the GUI builder in Netbeans (aka "Matisse"?) and also what is in IntelliJ - they are both pretty amazing and help ease the pain of working with Swing layout managers, which is one of the biggest pains in Swing land.

And on the layout manager front, check out MIG Layourt: http://www.miglayout.com/

I have lot of Java/Swing related links saved here (some are dated now!): http://www.delicious.com/sfraser/swing

-Scott


________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. On Sunday, February 13, 2011 11:29:54 am Chris Kessel/Lou Doherty wrote:
> >There's a reasonably popular app out there called 'Eclipse' that is built
>
> with SWT.
>
> Not to start a religious war, but I think Eclipse's popularity is largely
> because it's free. To me, every Eclipse based app I've had to use looks
> horrible and has poor usability. Promoting SWT by way of Eclipse might not
> be helping SWT's case much.
>
> Chris

netbeans/swing is free too and it's quite popular but I believe Eclipse trumps
both netbeans & idea.

swt vs swing is a very subjective decision. I have used both ( someone
suggested MigLayout, an excellent layout manager which works with both). swt
lowers the layer of abstraction to give you a more closer to the native UI
feel as compared to swing but you pay for that with complexity.

there are lots of other swt based apps which are also very popular:
1. Vuze ( used to be called Azureus) - one of the most popular bittorrent
clients areound
2. http://www.rssowl.org/
3. http://udig.refractions.net/

probably others floating out there ...
--
Nimret Sandhu
http://www.nimret.com
http://www.nimsoft.biz
_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. I used FX a bit a while back and was really quite impressed. However, when
Oracle took over they really hit the brakes and executed a rapid interstate
change, dramatically changing the course of development with FX. FX is not
dead, but just getting back up to speed with its new direction.

The main change seems to be removing the separate FX script in favor of
doing all the work in straight Java code. I have heard many things in favor
of and against this change, but it's to early to tell how it will work out
yet. I have high hopes however.

The alpha for FX 2.0 is due out soon (this month I think if it is not
already) but it is still in alpha state.

-Bryan

On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 12:47 PM, Scott Fraser <>wrote:

> I guess one other option I should have mentioned, but don't have much
> experience with, is JavaFX. People I know who have worked with it like it a
> lot. And I keep hearing it referred to as "the future of Java GUI apps". I
> have also heard some people comment that "in the future if you are building
> a Java GUI application you will be using JavaFX". Not sure what the reality
> is yet, but it seems promising for non-consumer facing apps.
>
> -Scott
>
>
> On Feb 12, 2011, at 7:02 PM, Michael Phoenix wrote:
>
> I actually got my start in the Java world working on JSF Web applications
> and just recently wrote my first Swing application. I was impressed with how
> easy it was to learn, including the advanced topics like tree handling and
> drag and drop. It made an excellent desktop application, one of these days I
> am going to have to look into using it for Web applications. I agree with
> Scott on the NetBeans Swing gui builder. It is really sweet and does a good
> job handling the layout, which would definitely be the most tedious part of
> Swing if you had to deal with the code manually.
>
> On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 10:49 AM, Scott Fraser <
> > wrote:
> Bryan said:
>
> >>
>
> I really liked
> using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
> types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
> work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
> majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
> provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and
> I
> did not have to worry about multiple browser support.
>
> <<
>
> I so agree - we have had Java Swing applets in production use by our
> customers since Swing 1.0 (late 90's). We had an AWT based applet prior to
> that.
>
> I personally believe that Swing has gotten a very unfair wrap. It is SO
> much easier to work on a Swing based application than one that runs on top
> of any web applications framework - and I am including the convention based
> ones like Rails and Grails.
>
> That being said, we are decreasing our use of applets - we mainly use them
> for very rich applications that have GUI visio-like things going on (the
> user is dragging and dropping things onto a canvas and working with them
> visually).
>
> Gary - if I was starting fresh today on a GUI Java application, I would
> definitely plan on using Java Web Start as Bryan said. We actually support
> both (applets or Web Start) - there is no reason you have to use one or the
> other.
>
> I also would steer clear of SWT as it is not pure Java and not consistent
> across platforms. Swing performs amazingly well now on modern CPU's and
> JVM's - there really is no compelling reason to use SWT for a business
> application.
>
> If this is an application that would need to be supported and maintained by
> a lot of people over time, I would want to use Java for the core business
> logic of the application. There are a lot of reasons for this, but I don't
> want to make this response too lengthy.
>
> If the team is not large and distributed, or if you already have strength
> with Groovy, I would give a long hard look at Griffon:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffon_%28framework%29
>
> I think using something like Griffon would be a great way to build a Java
> GUI application - but I would want to keep the Groovy usage to just the
> app-framework scaffolding, as I prefer using Java for the "meat" on those
> bones.
>
> By the way - you also might want to take a look at the GUI builder in
> Netbeans (aka "Matisse"?) and also what is in IntelliJ - they are both
> pretty amazing and help ease the pain of working with Swing layout managers,
> which is one of the biggest pains in Swing land.
>
> And on the layout manager front, check out MIG Layourt:
> http://www.miglayout.com/
>
> I have lot of Java/Swing related links saved here (some are dated now!):
> http://www.delicious.com/sfraser/swing
>
> -Scott
>
>
> ________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. Maybe another answer to the original poster's question about Java UI
frontend tools is that Java has a nearly overwhelming array of options
for front-end design. It could be handy to have a table where each
technology is appraised by:

- Aesthetics (so objective!)
- Portability
- Richness of widget library
- Ease of development, debugging, deployment

....any such table would have to be recognized as a biased set of
anecdotes, but why not make one? Since there are so many valuable
opinions out there, we could have a PJUG meeting where everyone offers
feedback on the topic collaboratively, say with a few prepared demos on
different technologies, and we send out a result table to the mailing
list. We could easily use up two meetings on this, one for desktop and
one for web front ends.

All this after Scott Fraser comes and gives us a talk. Thank you very
much for offering!


--

Daniel Kranowski | Business Algorithms, LLC | http://www.bizalgo.com |
(503) 828-1951


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Posted on the Javamail mailing list. Go to http://www.pjug.org/mailman/listinfo/javamail to subscribe. talk about timing... look at this point re: JavaFX:

http://www.adam-bien.com/roller/abien/entry/hello_javafx_2_back_to

-Scott

On Feb 14, 2011, at 11:03 AM, Bryan Lee wrote:

I used FX a bit a while back and was really quite impressed. However, when Oracle took over they really hit the brakes and executed a rapid interstate change, dramatically changing the course of development with FX. FX is not dead, but just getting back up to speed with its new direction.

The main change seems to be removing the separate FX script in favor of doing all the work in straight Java code. I have heard many things in favor of and against this change, but it's to early to tell how it will work out yet. I have high hopes however.

The alpha for FX 2.0 is due out soon (this month I think if it is not already) but it is still in alpha state.

-Bryan

On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 12:47 PM, Scott Fraser <> wrote:
I guess one other option I should have mentioned, but don't have much experience with, is JavaFX. People I know who have worked with it like it a lot. And I keep hearing it referred to as "the future of Java GUI apps". I have also heard some people comment that "in the future if you are building a Java GUI application you will be using JavaFX". Not sure what the reality is yet, but it seems promising for non-consumer facing apps.

-Scott


On Feb 12, 2011, at 7:02 PM, Michael Phoenix wrote:

I actually got my start in the Java world working on JSF Web applications and just recently wrote my first Swing application. I was impressed with how easy it was to learn, including the advanced topics like tree handling and drag and drop. It made an excellent desktop application, one of these days I am going to have to look into using it for Web applications. I agree with Scott on the NetBeans Swing gui builder. It is really sweet and does a good job handling the layout, which would definitely be the most tedious part of Swing if you had to deal with the code manually.

On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 10:49 AM, Scott Fraser <>> wrote:
Bryan said:

>>

I really liked
using a java swing app because it ran seamlessly across all the platform
types. I also liked building a desktop app vs. a web application for this
work because the tool was used continually through out the day by the
majority of the users and having an actual application vs. a web app
provided a faster, snappier interface, was easier to build and work on and I
did not have to worry about multiple browser support.

<<

I so agree - we have had Java Swing applets in production use by our customers since Swing 1.0 (late 90's). We had an AWT based applet prior to that.

I personally believe that Swing has gotten a very unfair wrap. It is SO much easier to work on a Swing based application than one that runs on top of any web applications framework - and I am including the convention based ones like Rails and Grails.

That being said, we are decreasing our use of applets - we mainly use them for very rich applications that have GUI visio-like things going on (the user is dragging and dropping things onto a canvas and working with them visually).

Gary - if I was starting fresh today on a GUI Java application, I would definitely plan on using Java Web Start as Bryan said. We actually support both (applets or Web Start) - there is no reason you have to use one or the other.

I also would steer clear of SWT as it is not pure Java and not consistent across platforms. Swing performs amazingly well now on modern CPU's and JVM's - there really is no compelling reason to use SWT for a business application.

If this is an application that would need to be supported and maintained by a lot of people over time, I would want to use Java for the core business logic of the application. There are a lot of reasons for this, but I don't want to make this response too lengthy.

If the team is not large and distributed, or if you already have strength with Groovy, I would give a long hard look at Griffon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffon_%28framework%29

I think using something like Griffon would be a great way to build a Java GUI application - but I would want to keep the Groovy usage to just the app-framework scaffolding, as I prefer using Java for the "meat" on those bones.

By the way - you also might want to take a look at the GUI builder in Netbeans (aka "Matisse"?) and also what is in IntelliJ - they are both pretty amazing and help ease the pain of working with Swing layout managers, which is one of the biggest pains in Swing land.

And on the layout manager front, check out MIG Layourt: http://www.miglayout.com/

I have lot of Java/Swing related links saved here (some are dated now!): http://www.delicious.com/sfraser/swing

-Scott


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