I saw Michelle Alexander interviewed on CSpan. I was struck by the
advocacy parallels to psychiatric disability as she rebutted with
facts the stereotypes about drugs and black youth.

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/id/219872


and her book:

http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595581030/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271020465&sr=8-1


And as I listened to the callers, I thought about those who could
hear her and those who wouldn't. And I wondered about how to even
begin the huge task of changing the social consciousness - about the
truth behind the war on drugs, about the truth behind behavioral
health, about black youth, about People Who ..., and that it seems to
me reason is failing, that minds need to be changed with emotion or
empathy and I'm not sure how to do that in a positive way. I see the
results of doing that in a negative way, for blacks, for homeless,
for madness, ...

Sylvia
_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe.

I saw Michelle Alexander interviewed on CSpan. I was struck by the
advocacy parallels to psychiatric disability as she rebutted with
facts the stereotypes about drugs and black youth.

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/id/219872


and her book:

http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595581030/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271020465&sr=8-1


And as I listened to the callers, I thought about those who could
hear her and those who wouldn't. And I wondered about how to even
begin the huge task of changing the social consciousness - about the
truth behind the war on drugs, about the truth behind behavioral
health, about black youth, about People Who ..., and that it seems to
me reason is failing, that minds need to be changed with emotion or
empathy and I'm not sure how to do that in a positive way. I see the
results of doing that in a negative way, for blacks, for homeless,
for madness, ...

Sylvia
_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Normal 0 0 1 298 1700 獫票楧栮捯洀鉭曮㞱Û뜰⠲쎔딁烊皭〼፥ᙼ䕸忤઱ 14 3 2087 11.768 0 0 0 NAMI feeds the media with stigmatizing, worst-case scenario,fear mongering.

They advocate for more forced “treatment” by inferring acausal connection between people not taking prescribed medication and those peoplethen doing awful things to themselves and/or others. These twoarguments (mental illness = menace to self/others & no meds = awful thingsare going to happen) provide a large part of the rationale for the typical NAMIsludge.

Without "treatment" (as defined by NAMI) we("mentally ill" again, as defined by NAMI) will kill or be killed,thus casting poor parents of adults (who should be able to make their ownchoices without interference from mommy and daddy) in a negative and powerlesslight (so therefore, they reinforce their need for more control and power). Pullback the curtain and instead of a wizard, you'll find a controlling andmanipulative parent. More oftenthan not, I can look at the parent and understand what's wrong with the kid.

The false dichotomy NAMI presents is between less treatment(Very Bad) and more treatment (Must Be Better). If we fall into thetrap of accepting these as the parameters of the debate, we will alwayslose. NAMI will bring out thedeath and tragedy stories and it's “Game Over” at that point. Reason will lose out to the emotionalarguments. They’ll distort itinto, “What do we stand for? Arewe for less death or more death; less tragedy or more? Really?”

We must find a way to shift the debate from Less Treatmentvs. More Treatment to Less Choice vs. More Choice. Less Choice = Bad Treatment = Bad Outcomes. We must expect the argument that peoplediagnosed with a psychiatric disorder cannot be given choice (because...well,because their brains are all messed up, right?) and we must find a way toovercome it...not just to our satisfaction, but in the minds of the generalpublic. Until then, we will seethis same story being played out, over and over and over again.

Perhaps we could start working on a new campaign with a newslogan: "Less Choice = MoreDeath."
-------------- Original message from Sylvia Caras <>: --------------


> I saw Michelle Alexander interviewed on CSpan. I was struck by the
> advocacy parallels to psychiatric disability as she rebutted with
> facts the stereotypes about drugs and black youth.
> http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program
> /id/219872
>
>
> and her book:
> http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595581030/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=127
> 1020465&sr=8-1
>
>
> And as I listened to the callers, I thought about those who could
> hear her and those who wouldn't. And I wondered about how to even
> begin the huge task of changing the social consciousness - about the
> truth behind the war on drugs, about the truth behind behavioral
> health, about black youth, about People Who ..., and that it seems to
> me reason is failing, that minds need to be changed with emotion or
> empathy and I'm not sure how to do that in a positive way. I see the
> results of doing that in a negative way, for blacks, for homeless,
> for madness, ...
>
> Sylvia
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe.

I saw Michelle Alexander interviewed on CSpan. I was struck by the
advocacy parallels to psychiatric disability as she rebutted with
facts the stereotypes about drugs and black youth.

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/id/219872


and her book:

http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595581030/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271020465&sr=8-1


And as I listened to the callers, I thought about those who could
hear her and those who wouldn't. And I wondered about how to even
begin the huge task of changing the social consciousness - about the
truth behind the war on drugs, about the truth behind behavioral
health, about black youth, about People Who ..., and that it seems to
me reason is failing, that minds need to be changed with emotion or
empathy and I'm not sure how to do that in a positive way. I see the
results of doing that in a negative way, for blacks, for homeless,
for madness, ...

Sylvia
_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Normal 0 0 1 298 1700 獫票楧栮捯洀鉭曮㞱Û뜰⠲쎔딁烊皭〼፥ᙼ䕸忤઱ 14 3 2087 11.768 0 0 0 NAMI feeds the media with stigmatizing, worst-case scenario,fear mongering.

They advocate for more forced “treatment” by inferring acausal connection between people not taking prescribed medication and those peoplethen doing awful things to themselves and/or others. These twoarguments (mental illness = menace to self/others & no meds = awful thingsare going to happen) provide a large part of the rationale for the typical NAMIsludge.

Without "treatment" (as defined by NAMI) we("mentally ill" again, as defined by NAMI) will kill or be killed,thus casting poor parents of adults (who should be able to make their ownchoices without interference from mommy and daddy) in a negative and powerlesslight (so therefore, they reinforce their need for more control and power). Pullback the curtain and instead of a wizard, you'll find a controlling andmanipulative parent. More oftenthan not, I can look at the parent and understand what's wrong with the kid.

The false dichotomy NAMI presents is between less treatment(Very Bad) and more treatment (Must Be Better). If we fall into thetrap of accepting these as the parameters of the debate, we will alwayslose. NAMI will bring out thedeath and tragedy stories and it's “Game Over” at that point. Reason will lose out to the emotionalarguments. They’ll distort itinto, “What do we stand for? Arewe for less death or more death; less tragedy or more? Really?”

We must find a way to shift the debate from Less Treatmentvs. More Treatment to Less Choice vs. More Choice. Less Choice = Bad Treatment = Bad Outcomes. We must expect the argument that peoplediagnosed with a psychiatric disorder cannot be given choice (because...well,because their brains are all messed up, right?) and we must find a way toovercome it...not just to our satisfaction, but in the minds of the generalpublic. Until then, we will seethis same story being played out, over and over and over again.

Perhaps we could start working on a new campaign with a newslogan: "Less Choice = MoreDeath."
-------------- Original message from Sylvia Caras <>: --------------


> I saw Michelle Alexander interviewed on CSpan. I was struck by the
> advocacy parallels to psychiatric disability as she rebutted with
> facts the stereotypes about drugs and black youth.
> http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program
> /id/219872
>
>
> and her book:
> http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595581030/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=127
> 1020465&sr=8-1
>
>
> And as I listened to the callers, I thought about those who could
> hear her and those who wouldn't. And I wondered about how to even
> begin the huge task of changing the social consciousness - about the
> truth behind the war on drugs, about the truth behind behavioral
> health, about black youth, about People Who ..., and that it seems to
> me reason is failing, that minds need to be changed with emotion or
> empathy and I'm not sure how to do that in a positive way. I see the
> results of doing that in a negative way, for blacks, for homeless,
> for madness, ...
>
> Sylvia
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Beckie Child <> wrote:
> that question ... I have seen some legislators give pause

Yes, it can wake them up a bit. I feel as if I do that when I testify.
But, ... that still focuses on the individual, sees the individual as
the problem, even if it's the individual being treated better, it's
still the individual.

I think there needs to be a shift to looking at the system, how it
pathologizes and discriminates and makes huge profits on the backs of
people delegated to a sub-class. An expose of the behavioral health
industry and those it manages. Professional power over. Stuff like
that.

Sylvia

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe.

I saw Michelle Alexander interviewed on CSpan. I was struck by the
advocacy parallels to psychiatric disability as she rebutted with
facts the stereotypes about drugs and black youth.

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/id/219872


and her book:

http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595581030/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271020465&sr=8-1


And as I listened to the callers, I thought about those who could
hear her and those who wouldn't. And I wondered about how to even
begin the huge task of changing the social consciousness - about the
truth behind the war on drugs, about the truth behind behavioral
health, about black youth, about People Who ..., and that it seems to
me reason is failing, that minds need to be changed with emotion or
empathy and I'm not sure how to do that in a positive way. I see the
results of doing that in a negative way, for blacks, for homeless,
for madness, ...

Sylvia
_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Normal 0 0 1 298 1700 獫票楧栮捯洀鉭曮㞱Û뜰⠲쎔딁烊皭〼፥ᙼ䕸忤઱ 14 3 2087 11.768 0 0 0 NAMI feeds the media with stigmatizing, worst-case scenario,fear mongering.

They advocate for more forced “treatment” by inferring acausal connection between people not taking prescribed medication and those peoplethen doing awful things to themselves and/or others. These twoarguments (mental illness = menace to self/others & no meds = awful thingsare going to happen) provide a large part of the rationale for the typical NAMIsludge.

Without "treatment" (as defined by NAMI) we("mentally ill" again, as defined by NAMI) will kill or be killed,thus casting poor parents of adults (who should be able to make their ownchoices without interference from mommy and daddy) in a negative and powerlesslight (so therefore, they reinforce their need for more control and power). Pullback the curtain and instead of a wizard, you'll find a controlling andmanipulative parent. More oftenthan not, I can look at the parent and understand what's wrong with the kid.

The false dichotomy NAMI presents is between less treatment(Very Bad) and more treatment (Must Be Better). If we fall into thetrap of accepting these as the parameters of the debate, we will alwayslose. NAMI will bring out thedeath and tragedy stories and it's “Game Over” at that point. Reason will lose out to the emotionalarguments. They’ll distort itinto, “What do we stand for? Arewe for less death or more death; less tragedy or more? Really?”

We must find a way to shift the debate from Less Treatmentvs. More Treatment to Less Choice vs. More Choice. Less Choice = Bad Treatment = Bad Outcomes. We must expect the argument that peoplediagnosed with a psychiatric disorder cannot be given choice (because...well,because their brains are all messed up, right?) and we must find a way toovercome it...not just to our satisfaction, but in the minds of the generalpublic. Until then, we will seethis same story being played out, over and over and over again.

Perhaps we could start working on a new campaign with a newslogan: "Less Choice = MoreDeath."
-------------- Original message from Sylvia Caras <>: --------------


> I saw Michelle Alexander interviewed on CSpan. I was struck by the
> advocacy parallels to psychiatric disability as she rebutted with
> facts the stereotypes about drugs and black youth.
> http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program
> /id/219872
>
>
> and her book:
> http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595581030/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=127
> 1020465&sr=8-1
>
>
> And as I listened to the callers, I thought about those who could
> hear her and those who wouldn't. And I wondered about how to even
> begin the huge task of changing the social consciousness - about the
> truth behind the war on drugs, about the truth behind behavioral
> health, about black youth, about People Who ..., and that it seems to
> me reason is failing, that minds need to be changed with emotion or
> empathy and I'm not sure how to do that in a positive way. I see the
> results of doing that in a negative way, for blacks, for homeless,
> for madness, ...
>
> Sylvia
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Beckie Child <> wrote:
> that question ... I have seen some legislators give pause

Yes, it can wake them up a bit. I feel as if I do that when I testify.
But, ... that still focuses on the individual, sees the individual as
the problem, even if it's the individual being treated better, it's
still the individual.

I think there needs to be a shift to looking at the system, how it
pathologizes and discriminates and makes huge profits on the backs of
people delegated to a sub-class. An expose of the behavioral health
industry and those it manages. Professional power over. Stuff like
that.

Sylvia

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Hi

Had occasion Friday to take on the head of CIT for the
Silicon Valley, his deputy, and the NAMI leader in league.
He blinked.

The Vietnamese advocate kept explaining about "fear of
the police" in the Vietnamese community. Finally the
CIT person "lost it" and started arguing back, like the
criticism was personal.

On Tue Apr 13 0:10 , Beckie Child <> sent:

>My biggest critique of CIT is that it is too
>focused on diagnoses--knowing
>how I've been labeled is not going to help you
>communicate with me if I'm
>experiencing duress. It's the heart to heart communication that
>works--that's what happens when you involve more mh professionals than
>people who have been labeled and diagnosed.

In this instance the police were looking at getting
money for a contract on "mobile crisis" with County
M.H. For them, heart-to-heart communication led to
embarrassment in the face of the advocates and the
"client/survivor" activists. In MHSA this is called
"innovations" but the fact is the police will get
their money.



Andrew Phelps

---- Msg sent via CWNet -
http://www.cwnet.com/

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe.

I saw Michelle Alexander interviewed on CSpan. I was struck by the
advocacy parallels to psychiatric disability as she rebutted with
facts the stereotypes about drugs and black youth.

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/id/219872


and her book:

http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595581030/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271020465&sr=8-1


And as I listened to the callers, I thought about those who could
hear her and those who wouldn't. And I wondered about how to even
begin the huge task of changing the social consciousness - about the
truth behind the war on drugs, about the truth behind behavioral
health, about black youth, about People Who ..., and that it seems to
me reason is failing, that minds need to be changed with emotion or
empathy and I'm not sure how to do that in a positive way. I see the
results of doing that in a negative way, for blacks, for homeless,
for madness, ...

Sylvia
_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Normal 0 0 1 298 1700 獫票楧栮捯洀鉭曮㞱Û뜰⠲쎔딁烊皭〼፥ᙼ䕸忤઱ 14 3 2087 11.768 0 0 0 NAMI feeds the media with stigmatizing, worst-case scenario,fear mongering.

They advocate for more forced “treatment” by inferring acausal connection between people not taking prescribed medication and those peoplethen doing awful things to themselves and/or others. These twoarguments (mental illness = menace to self/others & no meds = awful thingsare going to happen) provide a large part of the rationale for the typical NAMIsludge.

Without "treatment" (as defined by NAMI) we("mentally ill" again, as defined by NAMI) will kill or be killed,thus casting poor parents of adults (who should be able to make their ownchoices without interference from mommy and daddy) in a negative and powerlesslight (so therefore, they reinforce their need for more control and power). Pullback the curtain and instead of a wizard, you'll find a controlling andmanipulative parent. More oftenthan not, I can look at the parent and understand what's wrong with the kid.

The false dichotomy NAMI presents is between less treatment(Very Bad) and more treatment (Must Be Better). If we fall into thetrap of accepting these as the parameters of the debate, we will alwayslose. NAMI will bring out thedeath and tragedy stories and it's “Game Over” at that point. Reason will lose out to the emotionalarguments. They’ll distort itinto, “What do we stand for? Arewe for less death or more death; less tragedy or more? Really?”

We must find a way to shift the debate from Less Treatmentvs. More Treatment to Less Choice vs. More Choice. Less Choice = Bad Treatment = Bad Outcomes. We must expect the argument that peoplediagnosed with a psychiatric disorder cannot be given choice (because...well,because their brains are all messed up, right?) and we must find a way toovercome it...not just to our satisfaction, but in the minds of the generalpublic. Until then, we will seethis same story being played out, over and over and over again.

Perhaps we could start working on a new campaign with a newslogan: "Less Choice = MoreDeath."
-------------- Original message from Sylvia Caras <>: --------------


> I saw Michelle Alexander interviewed on CSpan. I was struck by the
> advocacy parallels to psychiatric disability as she rebutted with
> facts the stereotypes about drugs and black youth.
> http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program
> /id/219872
>
>
> and her book:
> http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595581030/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=127
> 1020465&sr=8-1
>
>
> And as I listened to the callers, I thought about those who could
> hear her and those who wouldn't. And I wondered about how to even
> begin the huge task of changing the social consciousness - about the
> truth behind the war on drugs, about the truth behind behavioral
> health, about black youth, about People Who ..., and that it seems to
> me reason is failing, that minds need to be changed with emotion or
> empathy and I'm not sure how to do that in a positive way. I see the
> results of doing that in a negative way, for blacks, for homeless,
> for madness, ...
>
> Sylvia
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Beckie Child <> wrote:
> that question ... I have seen some legislators give pause

Yes, it can wake them up a bit. I feel as if I do that when I testify.
But, ... that still focuses on the individual, sees the individual as
the problem, even if it's the individual being treated better, it's
still the individual.

I think there needs to be a shift to looking at the system, how it
pathologizes and discriminates and makes huge profits on the backs of
people delegated to a sub-class. An expose of the behavioral health
industry and those it manages. Professional power over. Stuff like
that.

Sylvia

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Hi

Had occasion Friday to take on the head of CIT for the
Silicon Valley, his deputy, and the NAMI leader in league.
He blinked.

The Vietnamese advocate kept explaining about "fear of
the police" in the Vietnamese community. Finally the
CIT person "lost it" and started arguing back, like the
criticism was personal.

On Tue Apr 13 0:10 , Beckie Child <> sent:

>My biggest critique of CIT is that it is too
>focused on diagnoses--knowing
>how I've been labeled is not going to help you
>communicate with me if I'm
>experiencing duress. It's the heart to heart communication that
>works--that's what happens when you involve more mh professionals than
>people who have been labeled and diagnosed.

In this instance the police were looking at getting
money for a contract on "mobile crisis" with County
M.H. For them, heart-to-heart communication led to
embarrassment in the face of the advocates and the
"client/survivor" activists. In MHSA this is called
"innovations" but the fact is the police will get
their money.



Andrew Phelps

---- Msg sent via CWNet -
http://www.cwnet.com/

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. The best hope lies in the tenacity, perseverance and "get er done" attitude represented in the public advocacy of MindFreedom, Int., the legal work of Jim Gottstein of PsychRights and public defenders who do their job, the civil disobedience of ADAPT members, the letters to the editor and web discussions of Risser, Felker, Childs, Caras, and so many more voices of experience, the organizations that run the national consumer network, the consumers who do Congressional and state legislative testimony, the visual presentations of Scott Cooper and Tom Olin......and so much more,
and yes, it should be about options and choices - medications or not - inpatient or outpatient treatment or not - ect or not - disability or not - recovery or not - nursing home or not - join a movement/support group or not - even death or not. Instead, so much of the struggle is against involuntary commitment/treatment and use of force/punishment for "compliance". Individual freedom is in greatest danger when in the control of someone who says what he/she is going to do for me is for my own good. Patient's rights should emphasize the right to be left alone, to be accepted for who I am, and I am NOT a "diagnosis". The choice vs more choice option is plain common sense and could be so much more successful. Has anyone seen anything based on force and coercion that really works? I think a lot of our mentality right now comes from being at war. It is always present in U.S. society though, when we proclaim we are engaged in a war on drugs, a battle against cancer, or whatever...but now I'm rambling on....

Charlie McCarthy

Voice/TDD (406) 449-2344
Toll Free 1-800-245-4743

-----Original Message-----
From: actmad- [mailto:actmad-] On Behalf Of Marty Felker
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 2:38 PM
To:
Subject: Re: [Actmad] reason and emotion

Pat:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe.

I saw Michelle Alexander interviewed on CSpan. I was struck by the
advocacy parallels to psychiatric disability as she rebutted with
facts the stereotypes about drugs and black youth.

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/id/219872


and her book:

http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595581030/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271020465&sr=8-1


And as I listened to the callers, I thought about those who could
hear her and those who wouldn't. And I wondered about how to even
begin the huge task of changing the social consciousness - about the
truth behind the war on drugs, about the truth behind behavioral
health, about black youth, about People Who ..., and that it seems to
me reason is failing, that minds need to be changed with emotion or
empathy and I'm not sure how to do that in a positive way. I see the
results of doing that in a negative way, for blacks, for homeless,
for madness, ...

Sylvia
_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Normal 0 0 1 298 1700 獫票楧栮捯洀鉭曮㞱Û뜰⠲쎔딁烊皭〼፥ᙼ䕸忤઱ 14 3 2087 11.768 0 0 0 NAMI feeds the media with stigmatizing, worst-case scenario,fear mongering.

They advocate for more forced “treatment” by inferring acausal connection between people not taking prescribed medication and those peoplethen doing awful things to themselves and/or others. These twoarguments (mental illness = menace to self/others & no meds = awful thingsare going to happen) provide a large part of the rationale for the typical NAMIsludge.

Without "treatment" (as defined by NAMI) we("mentally ill" again, as defined by NAMI) will kill or be killed,thus casting poor parents of adults (who should be able to make their ownchoices without interference from mommy and daddy) in a negative and powerlesslight (so therefore, they reinforce their need for more control and power). Pullback the curtain and instead of a wizard, you'll find a controlling andmanipulative parent. More oftenthan not, I can look at the parent and understand what's wrong with the kid.

The false dichotomy NAMI presents is between less treatment(Very Bad) and more treatment (Must Be Better). If we fall into thetrap of accepting these as the parameters of the debate, we will alwayslose. NAMI will bring out thedeath and tragedy stories and it's “Game Over” at that point. Reason will lose out to the emotionalarguments. They’ll distort itinto, “What do we stand for? Arewe for less death or more death; less tragedy or more? Really?”

We must find a way to shift the debate from Less Treatmentvs. More Treatment to Less Choice vs. More Choice. Less Choice = Bad Treatment = Bad Outcomes. We must expect the argument that peoplediagnosed with a psychiatric disorder cannot be given choice (because...well,because their brains are all messed up, right?) and we must find a way toovercome it...not just to our satisfaction, but in the minds of the generalpublic. Until then, we will seethis same story being played out, over and over and over again.

Perhaps we could start working on a new campaign with a newslogan: "Less Choice = MoreDeath."
-------------- Original message from Sylvia Caras <>: --------------


> I saw Michelle Alexander interviewed on CSpan. I was struck by the
> advocacy parallels to psychiatric disability as she rebutted with
> facts the stereotypes about drugs and black youth.
> http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program
> /id/219872
>
>
> and her book:
> http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595581030/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=127
> 1020465&sr=8-1
>
>
> And as I listened to the callers, I thought about those who could
> hear her and those who wouldn't. And I wondered about how to even
> begin the huge task of changing the social consciousness - about the
> truth behind the war on drugs, about the truth behind behavioral
> health, about black youth, about People Who ..., and that it seems to
> me reason is failing, that minds need to be changed with emotion or
> empathy and I'm not sure how to do that in a positive way. I see the
> results of doing that in a negative way, for blacks, for homeless,
> for madness, ...
>
> Sylvia
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Beckie Child <> wrote:
> that question ... I have seen some legislators give pause

Yes, it can wake them up a bit. I feel as if I do that when I testify.
But, ... that still focuses on the individual, sees the individual as
the problem, even if it's the individual being treated better, it's
still the individual.

I think there needs to be a shift to looking at the system, how it
pathologizes and discriminates and makes huge profits on the backs of
people delegated to a sub-class. An expose of the behavioral health
industry and those it manages. Professional power over. Stuff like
that.

Sylvia

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Hi

Had occasion Friday to take on the head of CIT for the
Silicon Valley, his deputy, and the NAMI leader in league.
He blinked.

The Vietnamese advocate kept explaining about "fear of
the police" in the Vietnamese community. Finally the
CIT person "lost it" and started arguing back, like the
criticism was personal.

On Tue Apr 13 0:10 , Beckie Child <> sent:

>My biggest critique of CIT is that it is too
>focused on diagnoses--knowing
>how I've been labeled is not going to help you
>communicate with me if I'm
>experiencing duress. It's the heart to heart communication that
>works--that's what happens when you involve more mh professionals than
>people who have been labeled and diagnosed.

In this instance the police were looking at getting
money for a contract on "mobile crisis" with County
M.H. For them, heart-to-heart communication led to
embarrassment in the face of the advocates and the
"client/survivor" activists. In MHSA this is called
"innovations" but the fact is the police will get
their money.



Andrew Phelps

---- Msg sent via CWNet -
http://www.cwnet.com/

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. The best hope lies in the tenacity, perseverance and "get er done" attitude represented in the public advocacy of MindFreedom, Int., the legal work of Jim Gottstein of PsychRights and public defenders who do their job, the civil disobedience of ADAPT members, the letters to the editor and web discussions of Risser, Felker, Childs, Caras, and so many more voices of experience, the organizations that run the national consumer network, the consumers who do Congressional and state legislative testimony, the visual presentations of Scott Cooper and Tom Olin......and so much more,
and yes, it should be about options and choices - medications or not - inpatient or outpatient treatment or not - ect or not - disability or not - recovery or not - nursing home or not - join a movement/support group or not - even death or not. Instead, so much of the struggle is against involuntary commitment/treatment and use of force/punishment for "compliance". Individual freedom is in greatest danger when in the control of someone who says what he/she is going to do for me is for my own good. Patient's rights should emphasize the right to be left alone, to be accepted for who I am, and I am NOT a "diagnosis". The choice vs more choice option is plain common sense and could be so much more successful. Has anyone seen anything based on force and coercion that really works? I think a lot of our mentality right now comes from being at war. It is always present in U.S. society though, when we proclaim we are engaged in a war on drugs, a battle against cancer, or whatever...but now I'm rambling on....

Charlie McCarthy

Voice/TDD (406) 449-2344
Toll Free 1-800-245-4743

-----Original Message-----
From: actmad- [mailto:actmad-] On Behalf Of Marty Felker
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 2:38 PM
To:
Subject: Re: [Actmad] reason and emotion

Pat:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. I think Pat, Marty and Charlie have all enlarged most accurately on my
original post. I think, though, that we somehow need to position
ourselves outside of medicine/treatment/diagnosis. That model dooms
us. It's parallel to disability moving to a social model,
accommodations and supports, ...

So how to move to difference, tolerance, liberty, self-management, ...
and how to unveil the 'othering', that we seem contagious and
frightening and how primitive those reactions to us are. Hmm.

Sylvia

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe.

I saw Michelle Alexander interviewed on CSpan. I was struck by the
advocacy parallels to psychiatric disability as she rebutted with
facts the stereotypes about drugs and black youth.

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/id/219872


and her book:

http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595581030/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271020465&sr=8-1


And as I listened to the callers, I thought about those who could
hear her and those who wouldn't. And I wondered about how to even
begin the huge task of changing the social consciousness - about the
truth behind the war on drugs, about the truth behind behavioral
health, about black youth, about People Who ..., and that it seems to
me reason is failing, that minds need to be changed with emotion or
empathy and I'm not sure how to do that in a positive way. I see the
results of doing that in a negative way, for blacks, for homeless,
for madness, ...

Sylvia
_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Normal 0 0 1 298 1700 獫票楧栮捯洀鉭曮㞱Û뜰⠲쎔딁烊皭〼፥ᙼ䕸忤઱ 14 3 2087 11.768 0 0 0 NAMI feeds the media with stigmatizing, worst-case scenario,fear mongering.

They advocate for more forced “treatment” by inferring acausal connection between people not taking prescribed medication and those peoplethen doing awful things to themselves and/or others. These twoarguments (mental illness = menace to self/others & no meds = awful thingsare going to happen) provide a large part of the rationale for the typical NAMIsludge.

Without "treatment" (as defined by NAMI) we("mentally ill" again, as defined by NAMI) will kill or be killed,thus casting poor parents of adults (who should be able to make their ownchoices without interference from mommy and daddy) in a negative and powerlesslight (so therefore, they reinforce their need for more control and power). Pullback the curtain and instead of a wizard, you'll find a controlling andmanipulative parent. More oftenthan not, I can look at the parent and understand what's wrong with the kid.

The false dichotomy NAMI presents is between less treatment(Very Bad) and more treatment (Must Be Better). If we fall into thetrap of accepting these as the parameters of the debate, we will alwayslose. NAMI will bring out thedeath and tragedy stories and it's “Game Over” at that point. Reason will lose out to the emotionalarguments. They’ll distort itinto, “What do we stand for? Arewe for less death or more death; less tragedy or more? Really?”

We must find a way to shift the debate from Less Treatmentvs. More Treatment to Less Choice vs. More Choice. Less Choice = Bad Treatment = Bad Outcomes. We must expect the argument that peoplediagnosed with a psychiatric disorder cannot be given choice (because...well,because their brains are all messed up, right?) and we must find a way toovercome it...not just to our satisfaction, but in the minds of the generalpublic. Until then, we will seethis same story being played out, over and over and over again.

Perhaps we could start working on a new campaign with a newslogan: "Less Choice = MoreDeath."
-------------- Original message from Sylvia Caras <>: --------------


> I saw Michelle Alexander interviewed on CSpan. I was struck by the
> advocacy parallels to psychiatric disability as she rebutted with
> facts the stereotypes about drugs and black youth.
> http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program
> /id/219872
>
>
> and her book:
> http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595581030/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=127
> 1020465&sr=8-1
>
>
> And as I listened to the callers, I thought about those who could
> hear her and those who wouldn't. And I wondered about how to even
> begin the huge task of changing the social consciousness - about the
> truth behind the war on drugs, about the truth behind behavioral
> health, about black youth, about People Who ..., and that it seems to
> me reason is failing, that minds need to be changed with emotion or
> empathy and I'm not sure how to do that in a positive way. I see the
> results of doing that in a negative way, for blacks, for homeless,
> for madness, ...
>
> Sylvia
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Beckie Child <> wrote:
> that question ... I have seen some legislators give pause

Yes, it can wake them up a bit. I feel as if I do that when I testify.
But, ... that still focuses on the individual, sees the individual as
the problem, even if it's the individual being treated better, it's
still the individual.

I think there needs to be a shift to looking at the system, how it
pathologizes and discriminates and makes huge profits on the backs of
people delegated to a sub-class. An expose of the behavioral health
industry and those it manages. Professional power over. Stuff like
that.

Sylvia

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Hi

Had occasion Friday to take on the head of CIT for the
Silicon Valley, his deputy, and the NAMI leader in league.
He blinked.

The Vietnamese advocate kept explaining about "fear of
the police" in the Vietnamese community. Finally the
CIT person "lost it" and started arguing back, like the
criticism was personal.

On Tue Apr 13 0:10 , Beckie Child <> sent:

>My biggest critique of CIT is that it is too
>focused on diagnoses--knowing
>how I've been labeled is not going to help you
>communicate with me if I'm
>experiencing duress. It's the heart to heart communication that
>works--that's what happens when you involve more mh professionals than
>people who have been labeled and diagnosed.

In this instance the police were looking at getting
money for a contract on "mobile crisis" with County
M.H. For them, heart-to-heart communication led to
embarrassment in the face of the advocates and the
"client/survivor" activists. In MHSA this is called
"innovations" but the fact is the police will get
their money.



Andrew Phelps

---- Msg sent via CWNet -
http://www.cwnet.com/

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. The best hope lies in the tenacity, perseverance and "get er done" attitude represented in the public advocacy of MindFreedom, Int., the legal work of Jim Gottstein of PsychRights and public defenders who do their job, the civil disobedience of ADAPT members, the letters to the editor and web discussions of Risser, Felker, Childs, Caras, and so many more voices of experience, the organizations that run the national consumer network, the consumers who do Congressional and state legislative testimony, the visual presentations of Scott Cooper and Tom Olin......and so much more,
and yes, it should be about options and choices - medications or not - inpatient or outpatient treatment or not - ect or not - disability or not - recovery or not - nursing home or not - join a movement/support group or not - even death or not. Instead, so much of the struggle is against involuntary commitment/treatment and use of force/punishment for "compliance". Individual freedom is in greatest danger when in the control of someone who says what he/she is going to do for me is for my own good. Patient's rights should emphasize the right to be left alone, to be accepted for who I am, and I am NOT a "diagnosis". The choice vs more choice option is plain common sense and could be so much more successful. Has anyone seen anything based on force and coercion that really works? I think a lot of our mentality right now comes from being at war. It is always present in U.S. society though, when we proclaim we are engaged in a war on drugs, a battle against cancer, or whatever...but now I'm rambling on....

Charlie McCarthy

Voice/TDD (406) 449-2344
Toll Free 1-800-245-4743

-----Original Message-----
From: actmad- [mailto:actmad-] On Behalf Of Marty Felker
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 2:38 PM
To:
Subject: Re: [Actmad] reason and emotion

Pat:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. I think Pat, Marty and Charlie have all enlarged most accurately on my
original post. I think, though, that we somehow need to position
ourselves outside of medicine/treatment/diagnosis. That model dooms
us. It's parallel to disability moving to a social model,
accommodations and supports, ...

So how to move to difference, tolerance, liberty, self-management, ...
and how to unveil the 'othering', that we seem contagious and
frightening and how primitive those reactions to us are. Hmm.

Sylvia

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Sylvia--

While this does not get at the larger picture of what you envision--one of
the things that I do when testifying to legislators and working with policy
makers is ask the question--would you want to have this done (whatever
"this" is) to you, your spouse, your father, mother, daughter, son, sister,
brother, aunt or uncle, niece, nephew or cousin? If the answer is no, then
why are you considering doing it to anyone else. Frequently they cannot
answer the question--and I don't expect an immediate answer--but it does
give them pause...not to move from pause to action...that's the next
step....

beckie

On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 4:16 PM, Sylvia Caras <>wrote:

>
> So how to move to difference, tolerance, liberty, self-management, ...
> and how to unveil the 'othering', that we seem contagious and
> frightening and how primitive those reactions to us are. Hmm.
>
> Sylvia
>
> --
"Courage in women is often mistaken for insanity."
psychiatrist to Woodrow Wilson in _Iron Jawed Angels_

www.mhaoforegon.com
_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe.

I saw Michelle Alexander interviewed on CSpan. I was struck by the
advocacy parallels to psychiatric disability as she rebutted with
facts the stereotypes about drugs and black youth.

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/id/219872


and her book:

http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595581030/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271020465&sr=8-1


And as I listened to the callers, I thought about those who could
hear her and those who wouldn't. And I wondered about how to even
begin the huge task of changing the social consciousness - about the
truth behind the war on drugs, about the truth behind behavioral
health, about black youth, about People Who ..., and that it seems to
me reason is failing, that minds need to be changed with emotion or
empathy and I'm not sure how to do that in a positive way. I see the
results of doing that in a negative way, for blacks, for homeless,
for madness, ...

Sylvia
_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Normal 0 0 1 298 1700 獫票楧栮捯洀鉭曮㞱Û뜰⠲쎔딁烊皭〼፥ᙼ䕸忤઱ 14 3 2087 11.768 0 0 0 NAMI feeds the media with stigmatizing, worst-case scenario,fear mongering.

They advocate for more forced “treatment” by inferring acausal connection between people not taking prescribed medication and those peoplethen doing awful things to themselves and/or others. These twoarguments (mental illness = menace to self/others & no meds = awful thingsare going to happen) provide a large part of the rationale for the typical NAMIsludge.

Without "treatment" (as defined by NAMI) we("mentally ill" again, as defined by NAMI) will kill or be killed,thus casting poor parents of adults (who should be able to make their ownchoices without interference from mommy and daddy) in a negative and powerlesslight (so therefore, they reinforce their need for more control and power). Pullback the curtain and instead of a wizard, you'll find a controlling andmanipulative parent. More oftenthan not, I can look at the parent and understand what's wrong with the kid.

The false dichotomy NAMI presents is between less treatment(Very Bad) and more treatment (Must Be Better). If we fall into thetrap of accepting these as the parameters of the debate, we will alwayslose. NAMI will bring out thedeath and tragedy stories and it's “Game Over” at that point. Reason will lose out to the emotionalarguments. They’ll distort itinto, “What do we stand for? Arewe for less death or more death; less tragedy or more? Really?”

We must find a way to shift the debate from Less Treatmentvs. More Treatment to Less Choice vs. More Choice. Less Choice = Bad Treatment = Bad Outcomes. We must expect the argument that peoplediagnosed with a psychiatric disorder cannot be given choice (because...well,because their brains are all messed up, right?) and we must find a way toovercome it...not just to our satisfaction, but in the minds of the generalpublic. Until then, we will seethis same story being played out, over and over and over again.

Perhaps we could start working on a new campaign with a newslogan: "Less Choice = MoreDeath."
-------------- Original message from Sylvia Caras <>: --------------


> I saw Michelle Alexander interviewed on CSpan. I was struck by the
> advocacy parallels to psychiatric disability as she rebutted with
> facts the stereotypes about drugs and black youth.
> http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program
> /id/219872
>
>
> and her book:
> http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595581030/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=127
> 1020465&sr=8-1
>
>
> And as I listened to the callers, I thought about those who could
> hear her and those who wouldn't. And I wondered about how to even
> begin the huge task of changing the social consciousness - about the
> truth behind the war on drugs, about the truth behind behavioral
> health, about black youth, about People Who ..., and that it seems to
> me reason is failing, that minds need to be changed with emotion or
> empathy and I'm not sure how to do that in a positive way. I see the
> results of doing that in a negative way, for blacks, for homeless,
> for madness, ...
>
> Sylvia
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Beckie Child <> wrote:
> that question ... I have seen some legislators give pause

Yes, it can wake them up a bit. I feel as if I do that when I testify.
But, ... that still focuses on the individual, sees the individual as
the problem, even if it's the individual being treated better, it's
still the individual.

I think there needs to be a shift to looking at the system, how it
pathologizes and discriminates and makes huge profits on the backs of
people delegated to a sub-class. An expose of the behavioral health
industry and those it manages. Professional power over. Stuff like
that.

Sylvia

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Hi

Had occasion Friday to take on the head of CIT for the
Silicon Valley, his deputy, and the NAMI leader in league.
He blinked.

The Vietnamese advocate kept explaining about "fear of
the police" in the Vietnamese community. Finally the
CIT person "lost it" and started arguing back, like the
criticism was personal.

On Tue Apr 13 0:10 , Beckie Child <> sent:

>My biggest critique of CIT is that it is too
>focused on diagnoses--knowing
>how I've been labeled is not going to help you
>communicate with me if I'm
>experiencing duress. It's the heart to heart communication that
>works--that's what happens when you involve more mh professionals than
>people who have been labeled and diagnosed.

In this instance the police were looking at getting
money for a contract on "mobile crisis" with County
M.H. For them, heart-to-heart communication led to
embarrassment in the face of the advocates and the
"client/survivor" activists. In MHSA this is called
"innovations" but the fact is the police will get
their money.



Andrew Phelps

---- Msg sent via CWNet -
http://www.cwnet.com/

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. The best hope lies in the tenacity, perseverance and "get er done" attitude represented in the public advocacy of MindFreedom, Int., the legal work of Jim Gottstein of PsychRights and public defenders who do their job, the civil disobedience of ADAPT members, the letters to the editor and web discussions of Risser, Felker, Childs, Caras, and so many more voices of experience, the organizations that run the national consumer network, the consumers who do Congressional and state legislative testimony, the visual presentations of Scott Cooper and Tom Olin......and so much more,
and yes, it should be about options and choices - medications or not - inpatient or outpatient treatment or not - ect or not - disability or not - recovery or not - nursing home or not - join a movement/support group or not - even death or not. Instead, so much of the struggle is against involuntary commitment/treatment and use of force/punishment for "compliance". Individual freedom is in greatest danger when in the control of someone who says what he/she is going to do for me is for my own good. Patient's rights should emphasize the right to be left alone, to be accepted for who I am, and I am NOT a "diagnosis". The choice vs more choice option is plain common sense and could be so much more successful. Has anyone seen anything based on force and coercion that really works? I think a lot of our mentality right now comes from being at war. It is always present in U.S. society though, when we proclaim we are engaged in a war on drugs, a battle against cancer, or whatever...but now I'm rambling on....

Charlie McCarthy

Voice/TDD (406) 449-2344
Toll Free 1-800-245-4743

-----Original Message-----
From: actmad- [mailto:actmad-] On Behalf Of Marty Felker
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 2:38 PM
To:
Subject: Re: [Actmad] reason and emotion

Pat:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. I think Pat, Marty and Charlie have all enlarged most accurately on my
original post. I think, though, that we somehow need to position
ourselves outside of medicine/treatment/diagnosis. That model dooms
us. It's parallel to disability moving to a social model,
accommodations and supports, ...

So how to move to difference, tolerance, liberty, self-management, ...
and how to unveil the 'othering', that we seem contagious and
frightening and how primitive those reactions to us are. Hmm.

Sylvia

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Sylvia--

While this does not get at the larger picture of what you envision--one of
the things that I do when testifying to legislators and working with policy
makers is ask the question--would you want to have this done (whatever
"this" is) to you, your spouse, your father, mother, daughter, son, sister,
brother, aunt or uncle, niece, nephew or cousin? If the answer is no, then
why are you considering doing it to anyone else. Frequently they cannot
answer the question--and I don't expect an immediate answer--but it does
give them pause...not to move from pause to action...that's the next
step....

beckie

On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 4:16 PM, Sylvia Caras <>wrote:

>
> So how to move to difference, tolerance, liberty, self-management, ...
> and how to unveil the 'othering', that we seem contagious and
> frightening and how primitive those reactions to us are. Hmm.
>
> Sylvia
>
> --
"Courage in women is often mistaken for insanity."
psychiatrist to Woodrow Wilson in _Iron Jawed Angels_

www.mhaoforegon.com
_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Actually Charlie I should lnot have been so negative. In my workas the
only consumer on the Southwestern VA Health Board for Regional Planning
(6 directors of CSB + the director of the state hospital and their
staff) I can and do make these professionals somewhat more aware of
perspective s most of us have. I am somewhat handicappaed because I am
not paid but then again because of that I can look at the picture
objectively without any bias and provide input the same manner. I also
have some authenticity since I was hospitalized in teh same state
hospital 6 yearsago (unformulated eh climate has change for the worsed
due to that shootings at VATech and budget cuts.) If people are in a
position that they are employed by the system as say peer counselors s
and also indicate they have been diagnosed I might suggest that they
join the "towhats" lisserv.

I also think that Mindfreedom is doing an excellent job of eduction,
particujlarly among c/s/x and am happy to be a member. *Whether or not
theses inroads can overshoe the public hysteria around people who are
diagnosed remains to be seen. I don't think it's going to happen
because of some (pseudo) scientific "breakthrough. *

Marty

On 4/12/2010 7:05 PM, Charlie McCarthy wrote:
> The best hope lies in the tenacity, perseverance and "get er done" attitude represented in the public advocacy of MindFreedom, Int., the legal work of Jim Gottstein of PsychRights and public defenders who do their job, the civil disobedience of ADAPT members, the letters to the editor and web discussions of Risser, Felker, Childs, Caras, and so many more voices of experience, the organizations that run the national consumer network, the consumers who do Congressional and state legislative testimony, the visual presentations of Scott Cooper and Tom Olin......and so much more,
> and yes, it should be about options and choices - medications or not - inpatient or outpatient treatment or not - ect or not - disability or not - recovery or not - nursing home or not - join a movement/support group or not - even death or not. Instead, so much of the struggle is against involuntary commitment/treatment and use of force/punishment for "compliance". Individual freedom is in greatest danger when in the control of someone who says what he/she is going to do for me is for my own good. Patient's rights should emphasize the right to be left alone, to be accepted for who I am, and I am NOT a "diagnosis". The choice vs more choice option is plain common sense and could be so much more successful. Has anyone seen anything based on force and coercion that really works? I think a lot of our mentality right now comes from being at war. It is always present in U.S. society though, when we proclaim we are engaged in a war on drugs, a battle against cancer, or whatever...but now I'm rambling on....
>
> Charlie McCarthy
>
> Voice/TDD (406) 449-2344
> Toll Free 1-800-245-4743
> Fax (406) 449-2418
> -----Original Message-----
> From: actmad- [mailto:actmad-] On Behalf Of Marty Felker
> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 2:38 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: [Actmad] reason and emotion
>
> Pat:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe.

I saw Michelle Alexander interviewed on CSpan. I was struck by the
advocacy parallels to psychiatric disability as she rebutted with
facts the stereotypes about drugs and black youth.

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/id/219872


and her book:

http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595581030/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271020465&sr=8-1


And as I listened to the callers, I thought about those who could
hear her and those who wouldn't. And I wondered about how to even
begin the huge task of changing the social consciousness - about the
truth behind the war on drugs, about the truth behind behavioral
health, about black youth, about People Who ..., and that it seems to
me reason is failing, that minds need to be changed with emotion or
empathy and I'm not sure how to do that in a positive way. I see the
results of doing that in a negative way, for blacks, for homeless,
for madness, ...

Sylvia
_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Normal 0 0 1 298 1700 獫票楧栮捯洀鉭曮㞱Û뜰⠲쎔딁烊皭〼፥ᙼ䕸忤઱ 14 3 2087 11.768 0 0 0 NAMI feeds the media with stigmatizing, worst-case scenario,fear mongering.

They advocate for more forced “treatment” by inferring acausal connection between people not taking prescribed medication and those peoplethen doing awful things to themselves and/or others. These twoarguments (mental illness = menace to self/others & no meds = awful thingsare going to happen) provide a large part of the rationale for the typical NAMIsludge.

Without "treatment" (as defined by NAMI) we("mentally ill" again, as defined by NAMI) will kill or be killed,thus casting poor parents of adults (who should be able to make their ownchoices without interference from mommy and daddy) in a negative and powerlesslight (so therefore, they reinforce their need for more control and power). Pullback the curtain and instead of a wizard, you'll find a controlling andmanipulative parent. More oftenthan not, I can look at the parent and understand what's wrong with the kid.

The false dichotomy NAMI presents is between less treatment(Very Bad) and more treatment (Must Be Better). If we fall into thetrap of accepting these as the parameters of the debate, we will alwayslose. NAMI will bring out thedeath and tragedy stories and it's “Game Over” at that point. Reason will lose out to the emotionalarguments. They’ll distort itinto, “What do we stand for? Arewe for less death or more death; less tragedy or more? Really?”

We must find a way to shift the debate from Less Treatmentvs. More Treatment to Less Choice vs. More Choice. Less Choice = Bad Treatment = Bad Outcomes. We must expect the argument that peoplediagnosed with a psychiatric disorder cannot be given choice (because...well,because their brains are all messed up, right?) and we must find a way toovercome it...not just to our satisfaction, but in the minds of the generalpublic. Until then, we will seethis same story being played out, over and over and over again.

Perhaps we could start working on a new campaign with a newslogan: "Less Choice = MoreDeath."
-------------- Original message from Sylvia Caras <>: --------------


> I saw Michelle Alexander interviewed on CSpan. I was struck by the
> advocacy parallels to psychiatric disability as she rebutted with
> facts the stereotypes about drugs and black youth.
> http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program
> /id/219872
>
>
> and her book:
> http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595581030/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=127
> 1020465&sr=8-1
>
>
> And as I listened to the callers, I thought about those who could
> hear her and those who wouldn't. And I wondered about how to even
> begin the huge task of changing the social consciousness - about the
> truth behind the war on drugs, about the truth behind behavioral
> health, about black youth, about People Who ..., and that it seems to
> me reason is failing, that minds need to be changed with emotion or
> empathy and I'm not sure how to do that in a positive way. I see the
> results of doing that in a negative way, for blacks, for homeless,
> for madness, ...
>
> Sylvia
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Beckie Child <> wrote:
> that question ... I have seen some legislators give pause

Yes, it can wake them up a bit. I feel as if I do that when I testify.
But, ... that still focuses on the individual, sees the individual as
the problem, even if it's the individual being treated better, it's
still the individual.

I think there needs to be a shift to looking at the system, how it
pathologizes and discriminates and makes huge profits on the backs of
people delegated to a sub-class. An expose of the behavioral health
industry and those it manages. Professional power over. Stuff like
that.

Sylvia

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Hi

Had occasion Friday to take on the head of CIT for the
Silicon Valley, his deputy, and the NAMI leader in league.
He blinked.

The Vietnamese advocate kept explaining about "fear of
the police" in the Vietnamese community. Finally the
CIT person "lost it" and started arguing back, like the
criticism was personal.

On Tue Apr 13 0:10 , Beckie Child <> sent:

>My biggest critique of CIT is that it is too
>focused on diagnoses--knowing
>how I've been labeled is not going to help you
>communicate with me if I'm
>experiencing duress. It's the heart to heart communication that
>works--that's what happens when you involve more mh professionals than
>people who have been labeled and diagnosed.

In this instance the police were looking at getting
money for a contract on "mobile crisis" with County
M.H. For them, heart-to-heart communication led to
embarrassment in the face of the advocates and the
"client/survivor" activists. In MHSA this is called
"innovations" but the fact is the police will get
their money.



Andrew Phelps

---- Msg sent via CWNet -
http://www.cwnet.com/

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. The best hope lies in the tenacity, perseverance and "get er done" attitude represented in the public advocacy of MindFreedom, Int., the legal work of Jim Gottstein of PsychRights and public defenders who do their job, the civil disobedience of ADAPT members, the letters to the editor and web discussions of Risser, Felker, Childs, Caras, and so many more voices of experience, the organizations that run the national consumer network, the consumers who do Congressional and state legislative testimony, the visual presentations of Scott Cooper and Tom Olin......and so much more,
and yes, it should be about options and choices - medications or not - inpatient or outpatient treatment or not - ect or not - disability or not - recovery or not - nursing home or not - join a movement/support group or not - even death or not. Instead, so much of the struggle is against involuntary commitment/treatment and use of force/punishment for "compliance". Individual freedom is in greatest danger when in the control of someone who says what he/she is going to do for me is for my own good. Patient's rights should emphasize the right to be left alone, to be accepted for who I am, and I am NOT a "diagnosis". The choice vs more choice option is plain common sense and could be so much more successful. Has anyone seen anything based on force and coercion that really works? I think a lot of our mentality right now comes from being at war. It is always present in U.S. society though, when we proclaim we are engaged in a war on drugs, a battle against cancer, or whatever...but now I'm rambling on....

Charlie McCarthy

Voice/TDD (406) 449-2344
Toll Free 1-800-245-4743

-----Original Message-----
From: actmad- [mailto:actmad-] On Behalf Of Marty Felker
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 2:38 PM
To:
Subject: Re: [Actmad] reason and emotion

Pat:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. I think Pat, Marty and Charlie have all enlarged most accurately on my
original post. I think, though, that we somehow need to position
ourselves outside of medicine/treatment/diagnosis. That model dooms
us. It's parallel to disability moving to a social model,
accommodations and supports, ...

So how to move to difference, tolerance, liberty, self-management, ...
and how to unveil the 'othering', that we seem contagious and
frightening and how primitive those reactions to us are. Hmm.

Sylvia

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Sylvia--

While this does not get at the larger picture of what you envision--one of
the things that I do when testifying to legislators and working with policy
makers is ask the question--would you want to have this done (whatever
"this" is) to you, your spouse, your father, mother, daughter, son, sister,
brother, aunt or uncle, niece, nephew or cousin? If the answer is no, then
why are you considering doing it to anyone else. Frequently they cannot
answer the question--and I don't expect an immediate answer--but it does
give them pause...not to move from pause to action...that's the next
step....

beckie

On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 4:16 PM, Sylvia Caras <>wrote:

>
> So how to move to difference, tolerance, liberty, self-management, ...
> and how to unveil the 'othering', that we seem contagious and
> frightening and how primitive those reactions to us are. Hmm.
>
> Sylvia
>
> --
"Courage in women is often mistaken for insanity."
psychiatrist to Woodrow Wilson in _Iron Jawed Angels_

www.mhaoforegon.com
_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Actually Charlie I should lnot have been so negative. In my workas the
only consumer on the Southwestern VA Health Board for Regional Planning
(6 directors of CSB + the director of the state hospital and their
staff) I can and do make these professionals somewhat more aware of
perspective s most of us have. I am somewhat handicappaed because I am
not paid but then again because of that I can look at the picture
objectively without any bias and provide input the same manner. I also
have some authenticity since I was hospitalized in teh same state
hospital 6 yearsago (unformulated eh climate has change for the worsed
due to that shootings at VATech and budget cuts.) If people are in a
position that they are employed by the system as say peer counselors s
and also indicate they have been diagnosed I might suggest that they
join the "towhats" lisserv.

I also think that Mindfreedom is doing an excellent job of eduction,
particujlarly among c/s/x and am happy to be a member. *Whether or not
theses inroads can overshoe the public hysteria around people who are
diagnosed remains to be seen. I don't think it's going to happen
because of some (pseudo) scientific "breakthrough. *

Marty

On 4/12/2010 7:05 PM, Charlie McCarthy wrote:
> The best hope lies in the tenacity, perseverance and "get er done" attitude represented in the public advocacy of MindFreedom, Int., the legal work of Jim Gottstein of PsychRights and public defenders who do their job, the civil disobedience of ADAPT members, the letters to the editor and web discussions of Risser, Felker, Childs, Caras, and so many more voices of experience, the organizations that run the national consumer network, the consumers who do Congressional and state legislative testimony, the visual presentations of Scott Cooper and Tom Olin......and so much more,
> and yes, it should be about options and choices - medications or not - inpatient or outpatient treatment or not - ect or not - disability or not - recovery or not - nursing home or not - join a movement/support group or not - even death or not. Instead, so much of the struggle is against involuntary commitment/treatment and use of force/punishment for "compliance". Individual freedom is in greatest danger when in the control of someone who says what he/she is going to do for me is for my own good. Patient's rights should emphasize the right to be left alone, to be accepted for who I am, and I am NOT a "diagnosis". The choice vs more choice option is plain common sense and could be so much more successful. Has anyone seen anything based on force and coercion that really works? I think a lot of our mentality right now comes from being at war. It is always present in U.S. society though, when we proclaim we are engaged in a war on drugs, a battle against cancer, or whatever...but now I'm rambling on....
>
> Charlie McCarthy
>
> Voice/TDD (406) 449-2344
> Toll Free 1-800-245-4743
> Fax (406) 449-2418
> -----Original Message-----
> From: actmad- [mailto:actmad-] On Behalf Of Marty Felker
> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 2:38 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: [Actmad] reason and emotion
>
> Pat:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Beckie, Sylvia et al.

I've felt like you're advocating here since the 60s.

Here's one dynamic I've discerned. M.L. King, Jr.
advocated for changing "behavioral science" so as to
support "creative maladjustment."

On Mon Apr 12 23:25 , Beckie
would you want to have this done (whatever
>"this" is) to you, your spouse, your father, mother, daughter, son, sister,
>brother, aunt or uncle, niece, nephew or cousin? If the answer is no, then
>why are you considering doing it to anyone else.

>On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 4:16 PM, Sylvia Caras >wrote:
>
>>
>> So how to move to difference, tolerance, liberty, self-management, ...
>> and how to unveil the 'othering', that we seem contagious and
>> frightening and how primitive those reactions to us are. Hmm.

And King, Jr. meant a "social" approach not just a
"well-adjusted ego."

An activist in Berkeley developed a community based program
based on King's model, in the early 70s. Her name was
Barbara Lee. It worked, but evidently it didn't "take off"
like it should. Something was "sticky," I'd say. She went
to school and earned an MSW with community mental health
emphasis. Then she summed things up and got a job working
for Congressman Dellums. Now he's the Mayor of Oakland and
she's the head of the Congressional Black Caucus.

Maybe we can network her back in with our advocacy?

Andrew Phelps

---- Msg sent via CWNet -
http://www.cwnet.com/

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe.

I saw Michelle Alexander interviewed on CSpan. I was struck by the
advocacy parallels to psychiatric disability as she rebutted with
facts the stereotypes about drugs and black youth.

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/id/219872


and her book:

http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595581030/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271020465&sr=8-1


And as I listened to the callers, I thought about those who could
hear her and those who wouldn't. And I wondered about how to even
begin the huge task of changing the social consciousness - about the
truth behind the war on drugs, about the truth behind behavioral
health, about black youth, about People Who ..., and that it seems to
me reason is failing, that minds need to be changed with emotion or
empathy and I'm not sure how to do that in a positive way. I see the
results of doing that in a negative way, for blacks, for homeless,
for madness, ...

Sylvia
_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Normal 0 0 1 298 1700 獫票楧栮捯洀鉭曮㞱Û뜰⠲쎔딁烊皭〼፥ᙼ䕸忤઱ 14 3 2087 11.768 0 0 0 NAMI feeds the media with stigmatizing, worst-case scenario,fear mongering.

They advocate for more forced “treatment” by inferring acausal connection between people not taking prescribed medication and those peoplethen doing awful things to themselves and/or others. These twoarguments (mental illness = menace to self/others & no meds = awful thingsare going to happen) provide a large part of the rationale for the typical NAMIsludge.

Without "treatment" (as defined by NAMI) we("mentally ill" again, as defined by NAMI) will kill or be killed,thus casting poor parents of adults (who should be able to make their ownchoices without interference from mommy and daddy) in a negative and powerlesslight (so therefore, they reinforce their need for more control and power). Pullback the curtain and instead of a wizard, you'll find a controlling andmanipulative parent. More oftenthan not, I can look at the parent and understand what's wrong with the kid.

The false dichotomy NAMI presents is between less treatment(Very Bad) and more treatment (Must Be Better). If we fall into thetrap of accepting these as the parameters of the debate, we will alwayslose. NAMI will bring out thedeath and tragedy stories and it's “Game Over” at that point. Reason will lose out to the emotionalarguments. They’ll distort itinto, “What do we stand for? Arewe for less death or more death; less tragedy or more? Really?”

We must find a way to shift the debate from Less Treatmentvs. More Treatment to Less Choice vs. More Choice. Less Choice = Bad Treatment = Bad Outcomes. We must expect the argument that peoplediagnosed with a psychiatric disorder cannot be given choice (because...well,because their brains are all messed up, right?) and we must find a way toovercome it...not just to our satisfaction, but in the minds of the generalpublic. Until then, we will seethis same story being played out, over and over and over again.

Perhaps we could start working on a new campaign with a newslogan: "Less Choice = MoreDeath."
-------------- Original message from Sylvia Caras <>: --------------


> I saw Michelle Alexander interviewed on CSpan. I was struck by the
> advocacy parallels to psychiatric disability as she rebutted with
> facts the stereotypes about drugs and black youth.
> http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program
> /id/219872
>
>
> and her book:
> http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595581030/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=127
> 1020465&sr=8-1
>
>
> And as I listened to the callers, I thought about those who could
> hear her and those who wouldn't. And I wondered about how to even
> begin the huge task of changing the social consciousness - about the
> truth behind the war on drugs, about the truth behind behavioral
> health, about black youth, about People Who ..., and that it seems to
> me reason is failing, that minds need to be changed with emotion or
> empathy and I'm not sure how to do that in a positive way. I see the
> results of doing that in a negative way, for blacks, for homeless,
> for madness, ...
>
> Sylvia
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Beckie Child <> wrote:
> that question ... I have seen some legislators give pause

Yes, it can wake them up a bit. I feel as if I do that when I testify.
But, ... that still focuses on the individual, sees the individual as
the problem, even if it's the individual being treated better, it's
still the individual.

I think there needs to be a shift to looking at the system, how it
pathologizes and discriminates and makes huge profits on the backs of
people delegated to a sub-class. An expose of the behavioral health
industry and those it manages. Professional power over. Stuff like
that.

Sylvia

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Hi

Had occasion Friday to take on the head of CIT for the
Silicon Valley, his deputy, and the NAMI leader in league.
He blinked.

The Vietnamese advocate kept explaining about "fear of
the police" in the Vietnamese community. Finally the
CIT person "lost it" and started arguing back, like the
criticism was personal.

On Tue Apr 13 0:10 , Beckie Child <> sent:

>My biggest critique of CIT is that it is too
>focused on diagnoses--knowing
>how I've been labeled is not going to help you
>communicate with me if I'm
>experiencing duress. It's the heart to heart communication that
>works--that's what happens when you involve more mh professionals than
>people who have been labeled and diagnosed.

In this instance the police were looking at getting
money for a contract on "mobile crisis" with County
M.H. For them, heart-to-heart communication led to
embarrassment in the face of the advocates and the
"client/survivor" activists. In MHSA this is called
"innovations" but the fact is the police will get
their money.



Andrew Phelps

---- Msg sent via CWNet -
http://www.cwnet.com/

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. The best hope lies in the tenacity, perseverance and "get er done" attitude represented in the public advocacy of MindFreedom, Int., the legal work of Jim Gottstein of PsychRights and public defenders who do their job, the civil disobedience of ADAPT members, the letters to the editor and web discussions of Risser, Felker, Childs, Caras, and so many more voices of experience, the organizations that run the national consumer network, the consumers who do Congressional and state legislative testimony, the visual presentations of Scott Cooper and Tom Olin......and so much more,
and yes, it should be about options and choices - medications or not - inpatient or outpatient treatment or not - ect or not - disability or not - recovery or not - nursing home or not - join a movement/support group or not - even death or not. Instead, so much of the struggle is against involuntary commitment/treatment and use of force/punishment for "compliance". Individual freedom is in greatest danger when in the control of someone who says what he/she is going to do for me is for my own good. Patient's rights should emphasize the right to be left alone, to be accepted for who I am, and I am NOT a "diagnosis". The choice vs more choice option is plain common sense and could be so much more successful. Has anyone seen anything based on force and coercion that really works? I think a lot of our mentality right now comes from being at war. It is always present in U.S. society though, when we proclaim we are engaged in a war on drugs, a battle against cancer, or whatever...but now I'm rambling on....

Charlie McCarthy

Voice/TDD (406) 449-2344
Toll Free 1-800-245-4743

-----Original Message-----
From: actmad- [mailto:actmad-] On Behalf Of Marty Felker
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 2:38 PM
To:
Subject: Re: [Actmad] reason and emotion

Pat:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. I think Pat, Marty and Charlie have all enlarged most accurately on my
original post. I think, though, that we somehow need to position
ourselves outside of medicine/treatment/diagnosis. That model dooms
us. It's parallel to disability moving to a social model,
accommodations and supports, ...

So how to move to difference, tolerance, liberty, self-management, ...
and how to unveil the 'othering', that we seem contagious and
frightening and how primitive those reactions to us are. Hmm.

Sylvia

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Sylvia--

While this does not get at the larger picture of what you envision--one of
the things that I do when testifying to legislators and working with policy
makers is ask the question--would you want to have this done (whatever
"this" is) to you, your spouse, your father, mother, daughter, son, sister,
brother, aunt or uncle, niece, nephew or cousin? If the answer is no, then
why are you considering doing it to anyone else. Frequently they cannot
answer the question--and I don't expect an immediate answer--but it does
give them pause...not to move from pause to action...that's the next
step....

beckie

On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 4:16 PM, Sylvia Caras <>wrote:

>
> So how to move to difference, tolerance, liberty, self-management, ...
> and how to unveil the 'othering', that we seem contagious and
> frightening and how primitive those reactions to us are. Hmm.
>
> Sylvia
>
> --
"Courage in women is often mistaken for insanity."
psychiatrist to Woodrow Wilson in _Iron Jawed Angels_

www.mhaoforegon.com
_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Actually Charlie I should lnot have been so negative. In my workas the
only consumer on the Southwestern VA Health Board for Regional Planning
(6 directors of CSB + the director of the state hospital and their
staff) I can and do make these professionals somewhat more aware of
perspective s most of us have. I am somewhat handicappaed because I am
not paid but then again because of that I can look at the picture
objectively without any bias and provide input the same manner. I also
have some authenticity since I was hospitalized in teh same state
hospital 6 yearsago (unformulated eh climate has change for the worsed
due to that shootings at VATech and budget cuts.) If people are in a
position that they are employed by the system as say peer counselors s
and also indicate they have been diagnosed I might suggest that they
join the "towhats" lisserv.

I also think that Mindfreedom is doing an excellent job of eduction,
particujlarly among c/s/x and am happy to be a member. *Whether or not
theses inroads can overshoe the public hysteria around people who are
diagnosed remains to be seen. I don't think it's going to happen
because of some (pseudo) scientific "breakthrough. *

Marty

On 4/12/2010 7:05 PM, Charlie McCarthy wrote:
> The best hope lies in the tenacity, perseverance and "get er done" attitude represented in the public advocacy of MindFreedom, Int., the legal work of Jim Gottstein of PsychRights and public defenders who do their job, the civil disobedience of ADAPT members, the letters to the editor and web discussions of Risser, Felker, Childs, Caras, and so many more voices of experience, the organizations that run the national consumer network, the consumers who do Congressional and state legislative testimony, the visual presentations of Scott Cooper and Tom Olin......and so much more,
> and yes, it should be about options and choices - medications or not - inpatient or outpatient treatment or not - ect or not - disability or not - recovery or not - nursing home or not - join a movement/support group or not - even death or not. Instead, so much of the struggle is against involuntary commitment/treatment and use of force/punishment for "compliance". Individual freedom is in greatest danger when in the control of someone who says what he/she is going to do for me is for my own good. Patient's rights should emphasize the right to be left alone, to be accepted for who I am, and I am NOT a "diagnosis". The choice vs more choice option is plain common sense and could be so much more successful. Has anyone seen anything based on force and coercion that really works? I think a lot of our mentality right now comes from being at war. It is always present in U.S. society though, when we proclaim we are engaged in a war on drugs, a battle against cancer, or whatever...but now I'm rambling on....
>
> Charlie McCarthy
>
> Voice/TDD (406) 449-2344
> Toll Free 1-800-245-4743
> Fax (406) 449-2418
> -----Original Message-----
> From: actmad- [mailto:actmad-] On Behalf Of Marty Felker
> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 2:38 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: [Actmad] reason and emotion
>
> Pat:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Beckie, Sylvia et al.

I've felt like you're advocating here since the 60s.

Here's one dynamic I've discerned. M.L. King, Jr.
advocated for changing "behavioral science" so as to
support "creative maladjustment."

On Mon Apr 12 23:25 , Beckie
would you want to have this done (whatever
>"this" is) to you, your spouse, your father, mother, daughter, son, sister,
>brother, aunt or uncle, niece, nephew or cousin? If the answer is no, then
>why are you considering doing it to anyone else.

>On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 4:16 PM, Sylvia Caras >wrote:
>
>>
>> So how to move to difference, tolerance, liberty, self-management, ...
>> and how to unveil the 'othering', that we seem contagious and
>> frightening and how primitive those reactions to us are. Hmm.

And King, Jr. meant a "social" approach not just a
"well-adjusted ego."

An activist in Berkeley developed a community based program
based on King's model, in the early 70s. Her name was
Barbara Lee. It worked, but evidently it didn't "take off"
like it should. Something was "sticky," I'd say. She went
to school and earned an MSW with community mental health
emphasis. Then she summed things up and got a job working
for Congressman Dellums. Now he's the Mayor of Oakland and
she's the head of the Congressional Black Caucus.

Maybe we can network her back in with our advocacy?

Andrew Phelps

---- Msg sent via CWNet -
http://www.cwnet.com/

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Beckie.

My wife took asked the same questions during trainings of CIT
officers. It didn't appear to make much of a difference even though all
the officers said they either knew or had a family member that was
diagnosed. Stigma around diagnosed people is still the norm as far as I
am concerned. Of course stigma around psychiatrists should be increased
because of the Fort Hood shootings (interestingly nobody has come forth
as one of the patients of Ddr. Hassan - hmm). CIT in theory in theory
should be a positive step but in practice is not for many reasons.

Marty

On 4/12/2010 7:25 PM, Beckie Child wrote:
> Sylvia--
>
> While this does not get at the larger picture of what you envision--one of
> the things that I do when testifying to legislators and working with policy
> makers is ask the question--would you want to have this done (whatever
> "this" is) to you, your spouse, your father, mother, daughter, son, sister,
> brother, aunt or uncle, niece, nephew or cousin? If the answer is no, then
> why are you considering doing it to anyone else. Frequently they cannot
> answer the question--and I don't expect an immediate answer--but it does
> give them pause...not to move from pause to action...that's the next
> step....
>
> beckie
>
> On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 4:16 PM, Sylvia Caras<>wrote:
>
>
>> So how to move to difference, tolerance, liberty, self-management, ...
>> and how to unveil the 'othering', that we seem contagious and
>> frightening and how primitive those reactions to us are. Hmm.
>>
>> Sylvia
>>
>> --
>>
> "Courage in women is often mistaken for insanity."
> psychiatrist to Woodrow Wilson in _Iron Jawed Angels_
>
> www.mhaoforegon.com
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe.

I saw Michelle Alexander interviewed on CSpan. I was struck by the
advocacy parallels to psychiatric disability as she rebutted with
facts the stereotypes about drugs and black youth.

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/id/219872


and her book:

http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595581030/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271020465&sr=8-1


And as I listened to the callers, I thought about those who could
hear her and those who wouldn't. And I wondered about how to even
begin the huge task of changing the social consciousness - about the
truth behind the war on drugs, about the truth behind behavioral
health, about black youth, about People Who ..., and that it seems to
me reason is failing, that minds need to be changed with emotion or
empathy and I'm not sure how to do that in a positive way. I see the
results of doing that in a negative way, for blacks, for homeless,
for madness, ...

Sylvia
_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Normal 0 0 1 298 1700 獫票楧栮捯洀鉭曮㞱Û뜰⠲쎔딁烊皭〼፥ᙼ䕸忤઱ 14 3 2087 11.768 0 0 0 NAMI feeds the media with stigmatizing, worst-case scenario,fear mongering.

They advocate for more forced “treatment” by inferring acausal connection between people not taking prescribed medication and those peoplethen doing awful things to themselves and/or others. These twoarguments (mental illness = menace to self/others & no meds = awful thingsare going to happen) provide a large part of the rationale for the typical NAMIsludge.

Without "treatment" (as defined by NAMI) we("mentally ill" again, as defined by NAMI) will kill or be killed,thus casting poor parents of adults (who should be able to make their ownchoices without interference from mommy and daddy) in a negative and powerlesslight (so therefore, they reinforce their need for more control and power). Pullback the curtain and instead of a wizard, you'll find a controlling andmanipulative parent. More oftenthan not, I can look at the parent and understand what's wrong with the kid.

The false dichotomy NAMI presents is between less treatment(Very Bad) and more treatment (Must Be Better). If we fall into thetrap of accepting these as the parameters of the debate, we will alwayslose. NAMI will bring out thedeath and tragedy stories and it's “Game Over” at that point. Reason will lose out to the emotionalarguments. They’ll distort itinto, “What do we stand for? Arewe for less death or more death; less tragedy or more? Really?”

We must find a way to shift the debate from Less Treatmentvs. More Treatment to Less Choice vs. More Choice. Less Choice = Bad Treatment = Bad Outcomes. We must expect the argument that peoplediagnosed with a psychiatric disorder cannot be given choice (because...well,because their brains are all messed up, right?) and we must find a way toovercome it...not just to our satisfaction, but in the minds of the generalpublic. Until then, we will seethis same story being played out, over and over and over again.

Perhaps we could start working on a new campaign with a newslogan: "Less Choice = MoreDeath."
-------------- Original message from Sylvia Caras <>: --------------


> I saw Michelle Alexander interviewed on CSpan. I was struck by the
> advocacy parallels to psychiatric disability as she rebutted with
> facts the stereotypes about drugs and black youth.
> http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program
> /id/219872
>
>
> and her book:
> http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595581030/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=127
> 1020465&sr=8-1
>
>
> And as I listened to the callers, I thought about those who could
> hear her and those who wouldn't. And I wondered about how to even
> begin the huge task of changing the social consciousness - about the
> truth behind the war on drugs, about the truth behind behavioral
> health, about black youth, about People Who ..., and that it seems to
> me reason is failing, that minds need to be changed with emotion or
> empathy and I'm not sure how to do that in a positive way. I see the
> results of doing that in a negative way, for blacks, for homeless,
> for madness, ...
>
> Sylvia
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Beckie Child <> wrote:
> that question ... I have seen some legislators give pause

Yes, it can wake them up a bit. I feel as if I do that when I testify.
But, ... that still focuses on the individual, sees the individual as
the problem, even if it's the individual being treated better, it's
still the individual.

I think there needs to be a shift to looking at the system, how it
pathologizes and discriminates and makes huge profits on the backs of
people delegated to a sub-class. An expose of the behavioral health
industry and those it manages. Professional power over. Stuff like
that.

Sylvia

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Hi

Had occasion Friday to take on the head of CIT for the
Silicon Valley, his deputy, and the NAMI leader in league.
He blinked.

The Vietnamese advocate kept explaining about "fear of
the police" in the Vietnamese community. Finally the
CIT person "lost it" and started arguing back, like the
criticism was personal.

On Tue Apr 13 0:10 , Beckie Child <> sent:

>My biggest critique of CIT is that it is too
>focused on diagnoses--knowing
>how I've been labeled is not going to help you
>communicate with me if I'm
>experiencing duress. It's the heart to heart communication that
>works--that's what happens when you involve more mh professionals than
>people who have been labeled and diagnosed.

In this instance the police were looking at getting
money for a contract on "mobile crisis" with County
M.H. For them, heart-to-heart communication led to
embarrassment in the face of the advocates and the
"client/survivor" activists. In MHSA this is called
"innovations" but the fact is the police will get
their money.



Andrew Phelps

---- Msg sent via CWNet -
http://www.cwnet.com/

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. The best hope lies in the tenacity, perseverance and "get er done" attitude represented in the public advocacy of MindFreedom, Int., the legal work of Jim Gottstein of PsychRights and public defenders who do their job, the civil disobedience of ADAPT members, the letters to the editor and web discussions of Risser, Felker, Childs, Caras, and so many more voices of experience, the organizations that run the national consumer network, the consumers who do Congressional and state legislative testimony, the visual presentations of Scott Cooper and Tom Olin......and so much more,
and yes, it should be about options and choices - medications or not - inpatient or outpatient treatment or not - ect or not - disability or not - recovery or not - nursing home or not - join a movement/support group or not - even death or not. Instead, so much of the struggle is against involuntary commitment/treatment and use of force/punishment for "compliance". Individual freedom is in greatest danger when in the control of someone who says what he/she is going to do for me is for my own good. Patient's rights should emphasize the right to be left alone, to be accepted for who I am, and I am NOT a "diagnosis". The choice vs more choice option is plain common sense and could be so much more successful. Has anyone seen anything based on force and coercion that really works? I think a lot of our mentality right now comes from being at war. It is always present in U.S. society though, when we proclaim we are engaged in a war on drugs, a battle against cancer, or whatever...but now I'm rambling on....

Charlie McCarthy

Voice/TDD (406) 449-2344
Toll Free 1-800-245-4743

-----Original Message-----
From: actmad- [mailto:actmad-] On Behalf Of Marty Felker
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 2:38 PM
To:
Subject: Re: [Actmad] reason and emotion

Pat:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. I think Pat, Marty and Charlie have all enlarged most accurately on my
original post. I think, though, that we somehow need to position
ourselves outside of medicine/treatment/diagnosis. That model dooms
us. It's parallel to disability moving to a social model,
accommodations and supports, ...

So how to move to difference, tolerance, liberty, self-management, ...
and how to unveil the 'othering', that we seem contagious and
frightening and how primitive those reactions to us are. Hmm.

Sylvia

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Sylvia--

While this does not get at the larger picture of what you envision--one of
the things that I do when testifying to legislators and working with policy
makers is ask the question--would you want to have this done (whatever
"this" is) to you, your spouse, your father, mother, daughter, son, sister,
brother, aunt or uncle, niece, nephew or cousin? If the answer is no, then
why are you considering doing it to anyone else. Frequently they cannot
answer the question--and I don't expect an immediate answer--but it does
give them pause...not to move from pause to action...that's the next
step....

beckie

On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 4:16 PM, Sylvia Caras <>wrote:

>
> So how to move to difference, tolerance, liberty, self-management, ...
> and how to unveil the 'othering', that we seem contagious and
> frightening and how primitive those reactions to us are. Hmm.
>
> Sylvia
>
> --
"Courage in women is often mistaken for insanity."
psychiatrist to Woodrow Wilson in _Iron Jawed Angels_

www.mhaoforegon.com
_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Actually Charlie I should lnot have been so negative. In my workas the
only consumer on the Southwestern VA Health Board for Regional Planning
(6 directors of CSB + the director of the state hospital and their
staff) I can and do make these professionals somewhat more aware of
perspective s most of us have. I am somewhat handicappaed because I am
not paid but then again because of that I can look at the picture
objectively without any bias and provide input the same manner. I also
have some authenticity since I was hospitalized in teh same state
hospital 6 yearsago (unformulated eh climate has change for the worsed
due to that shootings at VATech and budget cuts.) If people are in a
position that they are employed by the system as say peer counselors s
and also indicate they have been diagnosed I might suggest that they
join the "towhats" lisserv.

I also think that Mindfreedom is doing an excellent job of eduction,
particujlarly among c/s/x and am happy to be a member. *Whether or not
theses inroads can overshoe the public hysteria around people who are
diagnosed remains to be seen. I don't think it's going to happen
because of some (pseudo) scientific "breakthrough. *

Marty

On 4/12/2010 7:05 PM, Charlie McCarthy wrote:
> The best hope lies in the tenacity, perseverance and "get er done" attitude represented in the public advocacy of MindFreedom, Int., the legal work of Jim Gottstein of PsychRights and public defenders who do their job, the civil disobedience of ADAPT members, the letters to the editor and web discussions of Risser, Felker, Childs, Caras, and so many more voices of experience, the organizations that run the national consumer network, the consumers who do Congressional and state legislative testimony, the visual presentations of Scott Cooper and Tom Olin......and so much more,
> and yes, it should be about options and choices - medications or not - inpatient or outpatient treatment or not - ect or not - disability or not - recovery or not - nursing home or not - join a movement/support group or not - even death or not. Instead, so much of the struggle is against involuntary commitment/treatment and use of force/punishment for "compliance". Individual freedom is in greatest danger when in the control of someone who says what he/she is going to do for me is for my own good. Patient's rights should emphasize the right to be left alone, to be accepted for who I am, and I am NOT a "diagnosis". The choice vs more choice option is plain common sense and could be so much more successful. Has anyone seen anything based on force and coercion that really works? I think a lot of our mentality right now comes from being at war. It is always present in U.S. society though, when we proclaim we are engaged in a war on drugs, a battle against cancer, or whatever...but now I'm rambling on....
>
> Charlie McCarthy
>
> Voice/TDD (406) 449-2344
> Toll Free 1-800-245-4743
> Fax (406) 449-2418
> -----Original Message-----
> From: actmad- [mailto:actmad-] On Behalf Of Marty Felker
> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 2:38 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: [Actmad] reason and emotion
>
> Pat:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Beckie, Sylvia et al.

I've felt like you're advocating here since the 60s.

Here's one dynamic I've discerned. M.L. King, Jr.
advocated for changing "behavioral science" so as to
support "creative maladjustment."

On Mon Apr 12 23:25 , Beckie
would you want to have this done (whatever
>"this" is) to you, your spouse, your father, mother, daughter, son, sister,
>brother, aunt or uncle, niece, nephew or cousin? If the answer is no, then
>why are you considering doing it to anyone else.

>On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 4:16 PM, Sylvia Caras >wrote:
>
>>
>> So how to move to difference, tolerance, liberty, self-management, ...
>> and how to unveil the 'othering', that we seem contagious and
>> frightening and how primitive those reactions to us are. Hmm.

And King, Jr. meant a "social" approach not just a
"well-adjusted ego."

An activist in Berkeley developed a community based program
based on King's model, in the early 70s. Her name was
Barbara Lee. It worked, but evidently it didn't "take off"
like it should. Something was "sticky," I'd say. She went
to school and earned an MSW with community mental health
emphasis. Then she summed things up and got a job working
for Congressman Dellums. Now he's the Mayor of Oakland and
she's the head of the Congressional Black Caucus.

Maybe we can network her back in with our advocacy?

Andrew Phelps

---- Msg sent via CWNet -
http://www.cwnet.com/

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Beckie.

My wife took asked the same questions during trainings of CIT
officers. It didn't appear to make much of a difference even though all
the officers said they either knew or had a family member that was
diagnosed. Stigma around diagnosed people is still the norm as far as I
am concerned. Of course stigma around psychiatrists should be increased
because of the Fort Hood shootings (interestingly nobody has come forth
as one of the patients of Ddr. Hassan - hmm). CIT in theory in theory
should be a positive step but in practice is not for many reasons.

Marty

On 4/12/2010 7:25 PM, Beckie Child wrote:
> Sylvia--
>
> While this does not get at the larger picture of what you envision--one of
> the things that I do when testifying to legislators and working with policy
> makers is ask the question--would you want to have this done (whatever
> "this" is) to you, your spouse, your father, mother, daughter, son, sister,
> brother, aunt or uncle, niece, nephew or cousin? If the answer is no, then
> why are you considering doing it to anyone else. Frequently they cannot
> answer the question--and I don't expect an immediate answer--but it does
> give them pause...not to move from pause to action...that's the next
> step....
>
> beckie
>
> On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 4:16 PM, Sylvia Caras<>wrote:
>
>
>> So how to move to difference, tolerance, liberty, self-management, ...
>> and how to unveil the 'othering', that we seem contagious and
>> frightening and how primitive those reactions to us are. Hmm.
>>
>> Sylvia
>>
>> --
>>
> "Courage in women is often mistaken for insanity."
> psychiatrist to Woodrow Wilson in _Iron Jawed Angels_
>
> www.mhaoforegon.com
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. I certainly don't doubt this at all. But it might be marked in advance
that, at least in VA (and I think at a fatal shooting in Albuquerque a
few years back) CIT officers are in fact not allowed by their superiors
to respond to all but trivial situations. This is contrary to the
entire concept. I daresay that many officers take the training to get a
small increase in pay and a cool button.

Marty


On 4/12/2010 10:14 PM, Andrew Phelps wrote:
> Hi
>
> Had occasion Friday to take on the head of CIT for the
> Silicon Valley, his deputy, and the NAMI leader in league.
> He blinked.
>
> The Vietnamese advocate kept explaining about "fear of
> the police" in the Vietnamese community. Finally the
> CIT person "lost it" and started arguing back, like the
> criticism was personal.
>
> On Tue Apr 13 0:10 , Beckie Child<> sent:
>
>
>> My biggest critique of CIT is that it is too
>> focused on diagnoses--knowing
>> how I've been labeled is not going to help you
>> communicate with me if I'm
>> experiencing duress. It's the heart to heart communication that
>> works--that's what happens when you involve more mh professionals than
>> people who have been labeled and diagnosed.
>>
> In this instance the police were looking at getting
> money for a contract on "mobile crisis" with County
> M.H. For them, heart-to-heart communication led to
> embarrassment in the face of the advocates and the
> "client/survivor" activists. In MHSA this is called
> "innovations" but the fact is the police will get
> their money.
>
>
>
> Andrew Phelps
>
> ---- Msg sent via CWNet -
> http://www.cwnet.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe.

I saw Michelle Alexander interviewed on CSpan. I was struck by the
advocacy parallels to psychiatric disability as she rebutted with
facts the stereotypes about drugs and black youth.

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/id/219872


and her book:

http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595581030/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271020465&sr=8-1


And as I listened to the callers, I thought about those who could
hear her and those who wouldn't. And I wondered about how to even
begin the huge task of changing the social consciousness - about the
truth behind the war on drugs, about the truth behind behavioral
health, about black youth, about People Who ..., and that it seems to
me reason is failing, that minds need to be changed with emotion or
empathy and I'm not sure how to do that in a positive way. I see the
results of doing that in a negative way, for blacks, for homeless,
for madness, ...

Sylvia
_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Normal 0 0 1 298 1700 獫票楧栮捯洀鉭曮㞱Û뜰⠲쎔딁烊皭〼፥ᙼ䕸忤઱ 14 3 2087 11.768 0 0 0 NAMI feeds the media with stigmatizing, worst-case scenario,fear mongering.

They advocate for more forced “treatment” by inferring acausal connection between people not taking prescribed medication and those peoplethen doing awful things to themselves and/or others. These twoarguments (mental illness = menace to self/others & no meds = awful thingsare going to happen) provide a large part of the rationale for the typical NAMIsludge.

Without "treatment" (as defined by NAMI) we("mentally ill" again, as defined by NAMI) will kill or be killed,thus casting poor parents of adults (who should be able to make their ownchoices without interference from mommy and daddy) in a negative and powerlesslight (so therefore, they reinforce their need for more control and power). Pullback the curtain and instead of a wizard, you'll find a controlling andmanipulative parent. More oftenthan not, I can look at the parent and understand what's wrong with the kid.

The false dichotomy NAMI presents is between less treatment(Very Bad) and more treatment (Must Be Better). If we fall into thetrap of accepting these as the parameters of the debate, we will alwayslose. NAMI will bring out thedeath and tragedy stories and it's “Game Over” at that point. Reason will lose out to the emotionalarguments. They’ll distort itinto, “What do we stand for? Arewe for less death or more death; less tragedy or more? Really?”

We must find a way to shift the debate from Less Treatmentvs. More Treatment to Less Choice vs. More Choice. Less Choice = Bad Treatment = Bad Outcomes. We must expect the argument that peoplediagnosed with a psychiatric disorder cannot be given choice (because...well,because their brains are all messed up, right?) and we must find a way toovercome it...not just to our satisfaction, but in the minds of the generalpublic. Until then, we will seethis same story being played out, over and over and over again.

Perhaps we could start working on a new campaign with a newslogan: "Less Choice = MoreDeath."
-------------- Original message from Sylvia Caras <>: --------------


> I saw Michelle Alexander interviewed on CSpan. I was struck by the
> advocacy parallels to psychiatric disability as she rebutted with
> facts the stereotypes about drugs and black youth.
> http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program
> /id/219872
>
>
> and her book:
> http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595581030/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=127
> 1020465&sr=8-1
>
>
> And as I listened to the callers, I thought about those who could
> hear her and those who wouldn't. And I wondered about how to even
> begin the huge task of changing the social consciousness - about the
> truth behind the war on drugs, about the truth behind behavioral
> health, about black youth, about People Who ..., and that it seems to
> me reason is failing, that minds need to be changed with emotion or
> empathy and I'm not sure how to do that in a positive way. I see the
> results of doing that in a negative way, for blacks, for homeless,
> for madness, ...
>
> Sylvia
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Beckie Child <> wrote:
> that question ... I have seen some legislators give pause

Yes, it can wake them up a bit. I feel as if I do that when I testify.
But, ... that still focuses on the individual, sees the individual as
the problem, even if it's the individual being treated better, it's
still the individual.

I think there needs to be a shift to looking at the system, how it
pathologizes and discriminates and makes huge profits on the backs of
people delegated to a sub-class. An expose of the behavioral health
industry and those it manages. Professional power over. Stuff like
that.

Sylvia

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Hi

Had occasion Friday to take on the head of CIT for the
Silicon Valley, his deputy, and the NAMI leader in league.
He blinked.

The Vietnamese advocate kept explaining about "fear of
the police" in the Vietnamese community. Finally the
CIT person "lost it" and started arguing back, like the
criticism was personal.

On Tue Apr 13 0:10 , Beckie Child <> sent:

>My biggest critique of CIT is that it is too
>focused on diagnoses--knowing
>how I've been labeled is not going to help you
>communicate with me if I'm
>experiencing duress. It's the heart to heart communication that
>works--that's what happens when you involve more mh professionals than
>people who have been labeled and diagnosed.

In this instance the police were looking at getting
money for a contract on "mobile crisis" with County
M.H. For them, heart-to-heart communication led to
embarrassment in the face of the advocates and the
"client/survivor" activists. In MHSA this is called
"innovations" but the fact is the police will get
their money.



Andrew Phelps

---- Msg sent via CWNet -
http://www.cwnet.com/

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. The best hope lies in the tenacity, perseverance and "get er done" attitude represented in the public advocacy of MindFreedom, Int., the legal work of Jim Gottstein of PsychRights and public defenders who do their job, the civil disobedience of ADAPT members, the letters to the editor and web discussions of Risser, Felker, Childs, Caras, and so many more voices of experience, the organizations that run the national consumer network, the consumers who do Congressional and state legislative testimony, the visual presentations of Scott Cooper and Tom Olin......and so much more,
and yes, it should be about options and choices - medications or not - inpatient or outpatient treatment or not - ect or not - disability or not - recovery or not - nursing home or not - join a movement/support group or not - even death or not. Instead, so much of the struggle is against involuntary commitment/treatment and use of force/punishment for "compliance". Individual freedom is in greatest danger when in the control of someone who says what he/she is going to do for me is for my own good. Patient's rights should emphasize the right to be left alone, to be accepted for who I am, and I am NOT a "diagnosis". The choice vs more choice option is plain common sense and could be so much more successful. Has anyone seen anything based on force and coercion that really works? I think a lot of our mentality right now comes from being at war. It is always present in U.S. society though, when we proclaim we are engaged in a war on drugs, a battle against cancer, or whatever...but now I'm rambling on....

Charlie McCarthy

Voice/TDD (406) 449-2344
Toll Free 1-800-245-4743

-----Original Message-----
From: actmad- [mailto:actmad-] On Behalf Of Marty Felker
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 2:38 PM
To:
Subject: Re: [Actmad] reason and emotion

Pat:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. I think Pat, Marty and Charlie have all enlarged most accurately on my
original post. I think, though, that we somehow need to position
ourselves outside of medicine/treatment/diagnosis. That model dooms
us. It's parallel to disability moving to a social model,
accommodations and supports, ...

So how to move to difference, tolerance, liberty, self-management, ...
and how to unveil the 'othering', that we seem contagious and
frightening and how primitive those reactions to us are. Hmm.

Sylvia

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Sylvia--

While this does not get at the larger picture of what you envision--one of
the things that I do when testifying to legislators and working with policy
makers is ask the question--would you want to have this done (whatever
"this" is) to you, your spouse, your father, mother, daughter, son, sister,
brother, aunt or uncle, niece, nephew or cousin? If the answer is no, then
why are you considering doing it to anyone else. Frequently they cannot
answer the question--and I don't expect an immediate answer--but it does
give them pause...not to move from pause to action...that's the next
step....

beckie

On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 4:16 PM, Sylvia Caras <>wrote:

>
> So how to move to difference, tolerance, liberty, self-management, ...
> and how to unveil the 'othering', that we seem contagious and
> frightening and how primitive those reactions to us are. Hmm.
>
> Sylvia
>
> --
"Courage in women is often mistaken for insanity."
psychiatrist to Woodrow Wilson in _Iron Jawed Angels_

www.mhaoforegon.com
_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Actually Charlie I should lnot have been so negative. In my workas the
only consumer on the Southwestern VA Health Board for Regional Planning
(6 directors of CSB + the director of the state hospital and their
staff) I can and do make these professionals somewhat more aware of
perspective s most of us have. I am somewhat handicappaed because I am
not paid but then again because of that I can look at the picture
objectively without any bias and provide input the same manner. I also
have some authenticity since I was hospitalized in teh same state
hospital 6 yearsago (unformulated eh climate has change for the worsed
due to that shootings at VATech and budget cuts.) If people are in a
position that they are employed by the system as say peer counselors s
and also indicate they have been diagnosed I might suggest that they
join the "towhats" lisserv.

I also think that Mindfreedom is doing an excellent job of eduction,
particujlarly among c/s/x and am happy to be a member. *Whether or not
theses inroads can overshoe the public hysteria around people who are
diagnosed remains to be seen. I don't think it's going to happen
because of some (pseudo) scientific "breakthrough. *

Marty

On 4/12/2010 7:05 PM, Charlie McCarthy wrote:
> The best hope lies in the tenacity, perseverance and "get er done" attitude represented in the public advocacy of MindFreedom, Int., the legal work of Jim Gottstein of PsychRights and public defenders who do their job, the civil disobedience of ADAPT members, the letters to the editor and web discussions of Risser, Felker, Childs, Caras, and so many more voices of experience, the organizations that run the national consumer network, the consumers who do Congressional and state legislative testimony, the visual presentations of Scott Cooper and Tom Olin......and so much more,
> and yes, it should be about options and choices - medications or not - inpatient or outpatient treatment or not - ect or not - disability or not - recovery or not - nursing home or not - join a movement/support group or not - even death or not. Instead, so much of the struggle is against involuntary commitment/treatment and use of force/punishment for "compliance". Individual freedom is in greatest danger when in the control of someone who says what he/she is going to do for me is for my own good. Patient's rights should emphasize the right to be left alone, to be accepted for who I am, and I am NOT a "diagnosis". The choice vs more choice option is plain common sense and could be so much more successful. Has anyone seen anything based on force and coercion that really works? I think a lot of our mentality right now comes from being at war. It is always present in U.S. society though, when we proclaim we are engaged in a war on drugs, a battle against cancer, or whatever...but now I'm rambling on....
>
> Charlie McCarthy
>
> Voice/TDD (406) 449-2344
> Toll Free 1-800-245-4743
> Fax (406) 449-2418
> -----Original Message-----
> From: actmad- [mailto:actmad-] On Behalf Of Marty Felker
> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 2:38 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: [Actmad] reason and emotion
>
> Pat:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Beckie, Sylvia et al.

I've felt like you're advocating here since the 60s.

Here's one dynamic I've discerned. M.L. King, Jr.
advocated for changing "behavioral science" so as to
support "creative maladjustment."

On Mon Apr 12 23:25 , Beckie
would you want to have this done (whatever
>"this" is) to you, your spouse, your father, mother, daughter, son, sister,
>brother, aunt or uncle, niece, nephew or cousin? If the answer is no, then
>why are you considering doing it to anyone else.

>On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 4:16 PM, Sylvia Caras >wrote:
>
>>
>> So how to move to difference, tolerance, liberty, self-management, ...
>> and how to unveil the 'othering', that we seem contagious and
>> frightening and how primitive those reactions to us are. Hmm.

And King, Jr. meant a "social" approach not just a
"well-adjusted ego."

An activist in Berkeley developed a community based program
based on King's model, in the early 70s. Her name was
Barbara Lee. It worked, but evidently it didn't "take off"
like it should. Something was "sticky," I'd say. She went
to school and earned an MSW with community mental health
emphasis. Then she summed things up and got a job working
for Congressman Dellums. Now he's the Mayor of Oakland and
she's the head of the Congressional Black Caucus.

Maybe we can network her back in with our advocacy?

Andrew Phelps

---- Msg sent via CWNet -
http://www.cwnet.com/

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Beckie.

My wife took asked the same questions during trainings of CIT
officers. It didn't appear to make much of a difference even though all
the officers said they either knew or had a family member that was
diagnosed. Stigma around diagnosed people is still the norm as far as I
am concerned. Of course stigma around psychiatrists should be increased
because of the Fort Hood shootings (interestingly nobody has come forth
as one of the patients of Ddr. Hassan - hmm). CIT in theory in theory
should be a positive step but in practice is not for many reasons.

Marty

On 4/12/2010 7:25 PM, Beckie Child wrote:
> Sylvia--
>
> While this does not get at the larger picture of what you envision--one of
> the things that I do when testifying to legislators and working with policy
> makers is ask the question--would you want to have this done (whatever
> "this" is) to you, your spouse, your father, mother, daughter, son, sister,
> brother, aunt or uncle, niece, nephew or cousin? If the answer is no, then
> why are you considering doing it to anyone else. Frequently they cannot
> answer the question--and I don't expect an immediate answer--but it does
> give them pause...not to move from pause to action...that's the next
> step....
>
> beckie
>
> On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 4:16 PM, Sylvia Caras<>wrote:
>
>
>> So how to move to difference, tolerance, liberty, self-management, ...
>> and how to unveil the 'othering', that we seem contagious and
>> frightening and how primitive those reactions to us are. Hmm.
>>
>> Sylvia
>>
>> --
>>
> "Courage in women is often mistaken for insanity."
> psychiatrist to Woodrow Wilson in _Iron Jawed Angels_
>
> www.mhaoforegon.com
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. I certainly don't doubt this at all. But it might be marked in advance
that, at least in VA (and I think at a fatal shooting in Albuquerque a
few years back) CIT officers are in fact not allowed by their superiors
to respond to all but trivial situations. This is contrary to the
entire concept. I daresay that many officers take the training to get a
small increase in pay and a cool button.

Marty


On 4/12/2010 10:14 PM, Andrew Phelps wrote:
> Hi
>
> Had occasion Friday to take on the head of CIT for the
> Silicon Valley, his deputy, and the NAMI leader in league.
> He blinked.
>
> The Vietnamese advocate kept explaining about "fear of
> the police" in the Vietnamese community. Finally the
> CIT person "lost it" and started arguing back, like the
> criticism was personal.
>
> On Tue Apr 13 0:10 , Beckie Child<> sent:
>
>
>> My biggest critique of CIT is that it is too
>> focused on diagnoses--knowing
>> how I've been labeled is not going to help you
>> communicate with me if I'm
>> experiencing duress. It's the heart to heart communication that
>> works--that's what happens when you involve more mh professionals than
>> people who have been labeled and diagnosed.
>>
> In this instance the police were looking at getting
> money for a contract on "mobile crisis" with County
> M.H. For them, heart-to-heart communication led to
> embarrassment in the face of the advocates and the
> "client/survivor" activists. In MHSA this is called
> "innovations" but the fact is the police will get
> their money.
>
>
>
> Andrew Phelps
>
> ---- Msg sent via CWNet -
> http://www.cwnet.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Pat:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe.

I saw Michelle Alexander interviewed on CSpan. I was struck by the
advocacy parallels to psychiatric disability as she rebutted with
facts the stereotypes about drugs and black youth.

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/id/219872


and her book:

http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595581030/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271020465&sr=8-1


And as I listened to the callers, I thought about those who could
hear her and those who wouldn't. And I wondered about how to even
begin the huge task of changing the social consciousness - about the
truth behind the war on drugs, about the truth behind behavioral
health, about black youth, about People Who ..., and that it seems to
me reason is failing, that minds need to be changed with emotion or
empathy and I'm not sure how to do that in a positive way. I see the
results of doing that in a negative way, for blacks, for homeless,
for madness, ...

Sylvia
_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Normal 0 0 1 298 1700 獫票楧栮捯洀鉭曮㞱Û뜰⠲쎔딁烊皭〼፥ᙼ䕸忤઱ 14 3 2087 11.768 0 0 0 NAMI feeds the media with stigmatizing, worst-case scenario,fear mongering.

They advocate for more forced “treatment” by inferring acausal connection between people not taking prescribed medication and those peoplethen doing awful things to themselves and/or others. These twoarguments (mental illness = menace to self/others & no meds = awful thingsare going to happen) provide a large part of the rationale for the typical NAMIsludge.

Without "treatment" (as defined by NAMI) we("mentally ill" again, as defined by NAMI) will kill or be killed,thus casting poor parents of adults (who should be able to make their ownchoices without interference from mommy and daddy) in a negative and powerlesslight (so therefore, they reinforce their need for more control and power). Pullback the curtain and instead of a wizard, you'll find a controlling andmanipulative parent. More oftenthan not, I can look at the parent and understand what's wrong with the kid.

The false dichotomy NAMI presents is between less treatment(Very Bad) and more treatment (Must Be Better). If we fall into thetrap of accepting these as the parameters of the debate, we will alwayslose. NAMI will bring out thedeath and tragedy stories and it's “Game Over” at that point. Reason will lose out to the emotionalarguments. They’ll distort itinto, “What do we stand for? Arewe for less death or more death; less tragedy or more? Really?”

We must find a way to shift the debate from Less Treatmentvs. More Treatment to Less Choice vs. More Choice. Less Choice = Bad Treatment = Bad Outcomes. We must expect the argument that peoplediagnosed with a psychiatric disorder cannot be given choice (because...well,because their brains are all messed up, right?) and we must find a way toovercome it...not just to our satisfaction, but in the minds of the generalpublic. Until then, we will seethis same story being played out, over and over and over again.

Perhaps we could start working on a new campaign with a newslogan: "Less Choice = MoreDeath."
-------------- Original message from Sylvia Caras <>: --------------


> I saw Michelle Alexander interviewed on CSpan. I was struck by the
> advocacy parallels to psychiatric disability as she rebutted with
> facts the stereotypes about drugs and black youth.
> http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program
> /id/219872
>
>
> and her book:
> http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595581030/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=127
> 1020465&sr=8-1
>
>
> And as I listened to the callers, I thought about those who could
> hear her and those who wouldn't. And I wondered about how to even
> begin the huge task of changing the social consciousness - about the
> truth behind the war on drugs, about the truth behind behavioral
> health, about black youth, about People Who ..., and that it seems to
> me reason is failing, that minds need to be changed with emotion or
> empathy and I'm not sure how to do that in a positive way. I see the
> results of doing that in a negative way, for blacks, for homeless,
> for madness, ...
>
> Sylvia
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Beckie Child <> wrote:
> that question ... I have seen some legislators give pause

Yes, it can wake them up a bit. I feel as if I do that when I testify.
But, ... that still focuses on the individual, sees the individual as
the problem, even if it's the individual being treated better, it's
still the individual.

I think there needs to be a shift to looking at the system, how it
pathologizes and discriminates and makes huge profits on the backs of
people delegated to a sub-class. An expose of the behavioral health
industry and those it manages. Professional power over. Stuff like
that.

Sylvia

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Hi

Had occasion Friday to take on the head of CIT for the
Silicon Valley, his deputy, and the NAMI leader in league.
He blinked.

The Vietnamese advocate kept explaining about "fear of
the police" in the Vietnamese community. Finally the
CIT person "lost it" and started arguing back, like the
criticism was personal.

On Tue Apr 13 0:10 , Beckie Child <> sent:

>My biggest critique of CIT is that it is too
>focused on diagnoses--knowing
>how I've been labeled is not going to help you
>communicate with me if I'm
>experiencing duress. It's the heart to heart communication that
>works--that's what happens when you involve more mh professionals than
>people who have been labeled and diagnosed.

In this instance the police were looking at getting
money for a contract on "mobile crisis" with County
M.H. For them, heart-to-heart communication led to
embarrassment in the face of the advocates and the
"client/survivor" activists. In MHSA this is called
"innovations" but the fact is the police will get
their money.



Andrew Phelps

---- Msg sent via CWNet -
http://www.cwnet.com/

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. The best hope lies in the tenacity, perseverance and "get er done" attitude represented in the public advocacy of MindFreedom, Int., the legal work of Jim Gottstein of PsychRights and public defenders who do their job, the civil disobedience of ADAPT members, the letters to the editor and web discussions of Risser, Felker, Childs, Caras, and so many more voices of experience, the organizations that run the national consumer network, the consumers who do Congressional and state legislative testimony, the visual presentations of Scott Cooper and Tom Olin......and so much more,
and yes, it should be about options and choices - medications or not - inpatient or outpatient treatment or not - ect or not - disability or not - recovery or not - nursing home or not - join a movement/support group or not - even death or not. Instead, so much of the struggle is against involuntary commitment/treatment and use of force/punishment for "compliance". Individual freedom is in greatest danger when in the control of someone who says what he/she is going to do for me is for my own good. Patient's rights should emphasize the right to be left alone, to be accepted for who I am, and I am NOT a "diagnosis". The choice vs more choice option is plain common sense and could be so much more successful. Has anyone seen anything based on force and coercion that really works? I think a lot of our mentality right now comes from being at war. It is always present in U.S. society though, when we proclaim we are engaged in a war on drugs, a battle against cancer, or whatever...but now I'm rambling on....

Charlie McCarthy

Voice/TDD (406) 449-2344
Toll Free 1-800-245-4743

-----Original Message-----
From: actmad- [mailto:actmad-] On Behalf Of Marty Felker
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 2:38 PM
To:
Subject: Re: [Actmad] reason and emotion

Pat:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. I think Pat, Marty and Charlie have all enlarged most accurately on my
original post. I think, though, that we somehow need to position
ourselves outside of medicine/treatment/diagnosis. That model dooms
us. It's parallel to disability moving to a social model,
accommodations and supports, ...

So how to move to difference, tolerance, liberty, self-management, ...
and how to unveil the 'othering', that we seem contagious and
frightening and how primitive those reactions to us are. Hmm.

Sylvia

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Sylvia--

While this does not get at the larger picture of what you envision--one of
the things that I do when testifying to legislators and working with policy
makers is ask the question--would you want to have this done (whatever
"this" is) to you, your spouse, your father, mother, daughter, son, sister,
brother, aunt or uncle, niece, nephew or cousin? If the answer is no, then
why are you considering doing it to anyone else. Frequently they cannot
answer the question--and I don't expect an immediate answer--but it does
give them pause...not to move from pause to action...that's the next
step....

beckie

On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 4:16 PM, Sylvia Caras <>wrote:

>
> So how to move to difference, tolerance, liberty, self-management, ...
> and how to unveil the 'othering', that we seem contagious and
> frightening and how primitive those reactions to us are. Hmm.
>
> Sylvia
>
> --
"Courage in women is often mistaken for insanity."
psychiatrist to Woodrow Wilson in _Iron Jawed Angels_

www.mhaoforegon.com
_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Actually Charlie I should lnot have been so negative. In my workas the
only consumer on the Southwestern VA Health Board for Regional Planning
(6 directors of CSB + the director of the state hospital and their
staff) I can and do make these professionals somewhat more aware of
perspective s most of us have. I am somewhat handicappaed because I am
not paid but then again because of that I can look at the picture
objectively without any bias and provide input the same manner. I also
have some authenticity since I was hospitalized in teh same state
hospital 6 yearsago (unformulated eh climate has change for the worsed
due to that shootings at VATech and budget cuts.) If people are in a
position that they are employed by the system as say peer counselors s
and also indicate they have been diagnosed I might suggest that they
join the "towhats" lisserv.

I also think that Mindfreedom is doing an excellent job of eduction,
particujlarly among c/s/x and am happy to be a member. *Whether or not
theses inroads can overshoe the public hysteria around people who are
diagnosed remains to be seen. I don't think it's going to happen
because of some (pseudo) scientific "breakthrough. *

Marty

On 4/12/2010 7:05 PM, Charlie McCarthy wrote:
> The best hope lies in the tenacity, perseverance and "get er done" attitude represented in the public advocacy of MindFreedom, Int., the legal work of Jim Gottstein of PsychRights and public defenders who do their job, the civil disobedience of ADAPT members, the letters to the editor and web discussions of Risser, Felker, Childs, Caras, and so many more voices of experience, the organizations that run the national consumer network, the consumers who do Congressional and state legislative testimony, the visual presentations of Scott Cooper and Tom Olin......and so much more,
> and yes, it should be about options and choices - medications or not - inpatient or outpatient treatment or not - ect or not - disability or not - recovery or not - nursing home or not - join a movement/support group or not - even death or not. Instead, so much of the struggle is against involuntary commitment/treatment and use of force/punishment for "compliance". Individual freedom is in greatest danger when in the control of someone who says what he/she is going to do for me is for my own good. Patient's rights should emphasize the right to be left alone, to be accepted for who I am, and I am NOT a "diagnosis". The choice vs more choice option is plain common sense and could be so much more successful. Has anyone seen anything based on force and coercion that really works? I think a lot of our mentality right now comes from being at war. It is always present in U.S. society though, when we proclaim we are engaged in a war on drugs, a battle against cancer, or whatever...but now I'm rambling on....
>
> Charlie McCarthy
>
> Voice/TDD (406) 449-2344
> Toll Free 1-800-245-4743
> Fax (406) 449-2418
> -----Original Message-----
> From: actmad- [mailto:actmad-] On Behalf Of Marty Felker
> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 2:38 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: [Actmad] reason and emotion
>
> Pat:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Beckie, Sylvia et al.

I've felt like you're advocating here since the 60s.

Here's one dynamic I've discerned. M.L. King, Jr.
advocated for changing "behavioral science" so as to
support "creative maladjustment."

On Mon Apr 12 23:25 , Beckie
would you want to have this done (whatever
>"this" is) to you, your spouse, your father, mother, daughter, son, sister,
>brother, aunt or uncle, niece, nephew or cousin? If the answer is no, then
>why are you considering doing it to anyone else.

>On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 4:16 PM, Sylvia Caras >wrote:
>
>>
>> So how to move to difference, tolerance, liberty, self-management, ...
>> and how to unveil the 'othering', that we seem contagious and
>> frightening and how primitive those reactions to us are. Hmm.

And King, Jr. meant a "social" approach not just a
"well-adjusted ego."

An activist in Berkeley developed a community based program
based on King's model, in the early 70s. Her name was
Barbara Lee. It worked, but evidently it didn't "take off"
like it should. Something was "sticky," I'd say. She went
to school and earned an MSW with community mental health
emphasis. Then she summed things up and got a job working
for Congressman Dellums. Now he's the Mayor of Oakland and
she's the head of the Congressional Black Caucus.

Maybe we can network her back in with our advocacy?

Andrew Phelps

---- Msg sent via CWNet -
http://www.cwnet.com/

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Beckie.

My wife took asked the same questions during trainings of CIT
officers. It didn't appear to make much of a difference even though all
the officers said they either knew or had a family member that was
diagnosed. Stigma around diagnosed people is still the norm as far as I
am concerned. Of course stigma around psychiatrists should be increased
because of the Fort Hood shootings (interestingly nobody has come forth
as one of the patients of Ddr. Hassan - hmm). CIT in theory in theory
should be a positive step but in practice is not for many reasons.

Marty

On 4/12/2010 7:25 PM, Beckie Child wrote:
> Sylvia--
>
> While this does not get at the larger picture of what you envision--one of
> the things that I do when testifying to legislators and working with policy
> makers is ask the question--would you want to have this done (whatever
> "this" is) to you, your spouse, your father, mother, daughter, son, sister,
> brother, aunt or uncle, niece, nephew or cousin? If the answer is no, then
> why are you considering doing it to anyone else. Frequently they cannot
> answer the question--and I don't expect an immediate answer--but it does
> give them pause...not to move from pause to action...that's the next
> step....
>
> beckie
>
> On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 4:16 PM, Sylvia Caras<>wrote:
>
>
>> So how to move to difference, tolerance, liberty, self-management, ...
>> and how to unveil the 'othering', that we seem contagious and
>> frightening and how primitive those reactions to us are. Hmm.
>>
>> Sylvia
>>
>> --
>>
> "Courage in women is often mistaken for insanity."
> psychiatrist to Woodrow Wilson in _Iron Jawed Angels_
>
> www.mhaoforegon.com
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. I certainly don't doubt this at all. But it might be marked in advance
that, at least in VA (and I think at a fatal shooting in Albuquerque a
few years back) CIT officers are in fact not allowed by their superiors
to respond to all but trivial situations. This is contrary to the
entire concept. I daresay that many officers take the training to get a
small increase in pay and a cool button.

Marty


On 4/12/2010 10:14 PM, Andrew Phelps wrote:
> Hi
>
> Had occasion Friday to take on the head of CIT for the
> Silicon Valley, his deputy, and the NAMI leader in league.
> He blinked.
>
> The Vietnamese advocate kept explaining about "fear of
> the police" in the Vietnamese community. Finally the
> CIT person "lost it" and started arguing back, like the
> criticism was personal.
>
> On Tue Apr 13 0:10 , Beckie Child<> sent:
>
>
>> My biggest critique of CIT is that it is too
>> focused on diagnoses--knowing
>> how I've been labeled is not going to help you
>> communicate with me if I'm
>> experiencing duress. It's the heart to heart communication that
>> works--that's what happens when you involve more mh professionals than
>> people who have been labeled and diagnosed.
>>
> In this instance the police were looking at getting
> money for a contract on "mobile crisis" with County
> M.H. For them, heart-to-heart communication led to
> embarrassment in the face of the advocates and the
> "client/survivor" activists. In MHSA this is called
> "innovations" but the fact is the police will get
> their money.
>
>
>
> Andrew Phelps
>
> ---- Msg sent via CWNet -
> http://www.cwnet.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Pat:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. I agree with you--that question doesn't generally work with law enforcement
officers--but I have seen some legislators give pause--and then get confused
as they think about the inconsistencies with what they are proposing and the
idea that this could be done to them or their family members...I should say
that it doesn't work on all policy makers--that's why I'm trying to move
from pause to action...

My biggest critique of CIT is that it is too focused on diagnoses--knowing
how I've been labeled is not going to help you communicate with me if I'm
experiencing duress. It's the heart to heart communication that
works--that's what happens when you involve more mh professionals than
people who have been labeled and diagnosed.

beckie

On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 4:59 PM, Marty Felker <> wrote:

> Beckie.
>
> My wife took asked the same questions during trainings of CIT officers.
> It didn't appear to make much of a difference even though all the officers
> said they either knew or had a family member that was diagnosed. Stigma
> around diagnosed people is still the norm as far as I am concerned. Of
> course stigma around psychiatrists should be increased because of the Fort
> Hood shootings (interestingly nobody has come forth as one of the patients
> of Ddr. Hassan - hmm). CIT in theory in theory should be a positive step but
> in practice is not for many reasons.
>
>
--
"Courage in women is often mistaken for insanity."
psychiatrist to Woodrow Wilson in _Iron Jawed Angels_

www.mhaoforegon.com
_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe.

I saw Michelle Alexander interviewed on CSpan. I was struck by the
advocacy parallels to psychiatric disability as she rebutted with
facts the stereotypes about drugs and black youth.

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/id/219872


and her book:

http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595581030/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271020465&sr=8-1


And as I listened to the callers, I thought about those who could
hear her and those who wouldn't. And I wondered about how to even
begin the huge task of changing the social consciousness - about the
truth behind the war on drugs, about the truth behind behavioral
health, about black youth, about People Who ..., and that it seems to
me reason is failing, that minds need to be changed with emotion or
empathy and I'm not sure how to do that in a positive way. I see the
results of doing that in a negative way, for blacks, for homeless,
for madness, ...

Sylvia
_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Normal 0 0 1 298 1700 獫票楧栮捯洀鉭曮㞱Û뜰⠲쎔딁烊皭〼፥ᙼ䕸忤઱ 14 3 2087 11.768 0 0 0 NAMI feeds the media with stigmatizing, worst-case scenario,fear mongering.

They advocate for more forced “treatment” by inferring acausal connection between people not taking prescribed medication and those peoplethen doing awful things to themselves and/or others. These twoarguments (mental illness = menace to self/others & no meds = awful thingsare going to happen) provide a large part of the rationale for the typical NAMIsludge.

Without "treatment" (as defined by NAMI) we("mentally ill" again, as defined by NAMI) will kill or be killed,thus casting poor parents of adults (who should be able to make their ownchoices without interference from mommy and daddy) in a negative and powerlesslight (so therefore, they reinforce their need for more control and power). Pullback the curtain and instead of a wizard, you'll find a controlling andmanipulative parent. More oftenthan not, I can look at the parent and understand what's wrong with the kid.

The false dichotomy NAMI presents is between less treatment(Very Bad) and more treatment (Must Be Better). If we fall into thetrap of accepting these as the parameters of the debate, we will alwayslose. NAMI will bring out thedeath and tragedy stories and it's “Game Over” at that point. Reason will lose out to the emotionalarguments. They’ll distort itinto, “What do we stand for? Arewe for less death or more death; less tragedy or more? Really?”

We must find a way to shift the debate from Less Treatmentvs. More Treatment to Less Choice vs. More Choice. Less Choice = Bad Treatment = Bad Outcomes. We must expect the argument that peoplediagnosed with a psychiatric disorder cannot be given choice (because...well,because their brains are all messed up, right?) and we must find a way toovercome it...not just to our satisfaction, but in the minds of the generalpublic. Until then, we will seethis same story being played out, over and over and over again.

Perhaps we could start working on a new campaign with a newslogan: "Less Choice = MoreDeath."
-------------- Original message from Sylvia Caras <>: --------------


> I saw Michelle Alexander interviewed on CSpan. I was struck by the
> advocacy parallels to psychiatric disability as she rebutted with
> facts the stereotypes about drugs and black youth.
> http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program
> /id/219872
>
>
> and her book:
> http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblindness/dp/1595581030/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=127
> 1020465&sr=8-1
>
>
> And as I listened to the callers, I thought about those who could
> hear her and those who wouldn't. And I wondered about how to even
> begin the huge task of changing the social consciousness - about the
> truth behind the war on drugs, about the truth behind behavioral
> health, about black youth, about People Who ..., and that it seems to
> me reason is failing, that minds need to be changed with emotion or
> empathy and I'm not sure how to do that in a positive way. I see the
> results of doing that in a negative way, for blacks, for homeless,
> for madness, ...
>
> Sylvia
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Beckie Child <> wrote:
> that question ... I have seen some legislators give pause

Yes, it can wake them up a bit. I feel as if I do that when I testify.
But, ... that still focuses on the individual, sees the individual as
the problem, even if it's the individual being treated better, it's
still the individual.

I think there needs to be a shift to looking at the system, how it
pathologizes and discriminates and makes huge profits on the backs of
people delegated to a sub-class. An expose of the behavioral health
industry and those it manages. Professional power over. Stuff like
that.

Sylvia

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Hi

Had occasion Friday to take on the head of CIT for the
Silicon Valley, his deputy, and the NAMI leader in league.
He blinked.

The Vietnamese advocate kept explaining about "fear of
the police" in the Vietnamese community. Finally the
CIT person "lost it" and started arguing back, like the
criticism was personal.

On Tue Apr 13 0:10 , Beckie Child <> sent:

>My biggest critique of CIT is that it is too
>focused on diagnoses--knowing
>how I've been labeled is not going to help you
>communicate with me if I'm
>experiencing duress. It's the heart to heart communication that
>works--that's what happens when you involve more mh professionals than
>people who have been labeled and diagnosed.

In this instance the police were looking at getting
money for a contract on "mobile crisis" with County
M.H. For them, heart-to-heart communication led to
embarrassment in the face of the advocates and the
"client/survivor" activists. In MHSA this is called
"innovations" but the fact is the police will get
their money.



Andrew Phelps

---- Msg sent via CWNet -
http://www.cwnet.com/

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. The best hope lies in the tenacity, perseverance and "get er done" attitude represented in the public advocacy of MindFreedom, Int., the legal work of Jim Gottstein of PsychRights and public defenders who do their job, the civil disobedience of ADAPT members, the letters to the editor and web discussions of Risser, Felker, Childs, Caras, and so many more voices of experience, the organizations that run the national consumer network, the consumers who do Congressional and state legislative testimony, the visual presentations of Scott Cooper and Tom Olin......and so much more,
and yes, it should be about options and choices - medications or not - inpatient or outpatient treatment or not - ect or not - disability or not - recovery or not - nursing home or not - join a movement/support group or not - even death or not. Instead, so much of the struggle is against involuntary commitment/treatment and use of force/punishment for "compliance". Individual freedom is in greatest danger when in the control of someone who says what he/she is going to do for me is for my own good. Patient's rights should emphasize the right to be left alone, to be accepted for who I am, and I am NOT a "diagnosis". The choice vs more choice option is plain common sense and could be so much more successful. Has anyone seen anything based on force and coercion that really works? I think a lot of our mentality right now comes from being at war. It is always present in U.S. society though, when we proclaim we are engaged in a war on drugs, a battle against cancer, or whatever...but now I'm rambling on....

Charlie McCarthy

Voice/TDD (406) 449-2344
Toll Free 1-800-245-4743

-----Original Message-----
From: actmad- [mailto:actmad-] On Behalf Of Marty Felker
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 2:38 PM
To:
Subject: Re: [Actmad] reason and emotion

Pat:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. I think Pat, Marty and Charlie have all enlarged most accurately on my
original post. I think, though, that we somehow need to position
ourselves outside of medicine/treatment/diagnosis. That model dooms
us. It's parallel to disability moving to a social model,
accommodations and supports, ...

So how to move to difference, tolerance, liberty, self-management, ...
and how to unveil the 'othering', that we seem contagious and
frightening and how primitive those reactions to us are. Hmm.

Sylvia

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Sylvia--

While this does not get at the larger picture of what you envision--one of
the things that I do when testifying to legislators and working with policy
makers is ask the question--would you want to have this done (whatever
"this" is) to you, your spouse, your father, mother, daughter, son, sister,
brother, aunt or uncle, niece, nephew or cousin? If the answer is no, then
why are you considering doing it to anyone else. Frequently they cannot
answer the question--and I don't expect an immediate answer--but it does
give them pause...not to move from pause to action...that's the next
step....

beckie

On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 4:16 PM, Sylvia Caras <>wrote:

>
> So how to move to difference, tolerance, liberty, self-management, ...
> and how to unveil the 'othering', that we seem contagious and
> frightening and how primitive those reactions to us are. Hmm.
>
> Sylvia
>
> --
"Courage in women is often mistaken for insanity."
psychiatrist to Woodrow Wilson in _Iron Jawed Angels_

www.mhaoforegon.com
_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Actually Charlie I should lnot have been so negative. In my workas the
only consumer on the Southwestern VA Health Board for Regional Planning
(6 directors of CSB + the director of the state hospital and their
staff) I can and do make these professionals somewhat more aware of
perspective s most of us have. I am somewhat handicappaed because I am
not paid but then again because of that I can look at the picture
objectively without any bias and provide input the same manner. I also
have some authenticity since I was hospitalized in teh same state
hospital 6 yearsago (unformulated eh climate has change for the worsed
due to that shootings at VATech and budget cuts.) If people are in a
position that they are employed by the system as say peer counselors s
and also indicate they have been diagnosed I might suggest that they
join the "towhats" lisserv.

I also think that Mindfreedom is doing an excellent job of eduction,
particujlarly among c/s/x and am happy to be a member. *Whether or not
theses inroads can overshoe the public hysteria around people who are
diagnosed remains to be seen. I don't think it's going to happen
because of some (pseudo) scientific "breakthrough. *

Marty

On 4/12/2010 7:05 PM, Charlie McCarthy wrote:
> The best hope lies in the tenacity, perseverance and "get er done" attitude represented in the public advocacy of MindFreedom, Int., the legal work of Jim Gottstein of PsychRights and public defenders who do their job, the civil disobedience of ADAPT members, the letters to the editor and web discussions of Risser, Felker, Childs, Caras, and so many more voices of experience, the organizations that run the national consumer network, the consumers who do Congressional and state legislative testimony, the visual presentations of Scott Cooper and Tom Olin......and so much more,
> and yes, it should be about options and choices - medications or not - inpatient or outpatient treatment or not - ect or not - disability or not - recovery or not - nursing home or not - join a movement/support group or not - even death or not. Instead, so much of the struggle is against involuntary commitment/treatment and use of force/punishment for "compliance". Individual freedom is in greatest danger when in the control of someone who says what he/she is going to do for me is for my own good. Patient's rights should emphasize the right to be left alone, to be accepted for who I am, and I am NOT a "diagnosis". The choice vs more choice option is plain common sense and could be so much more successful. Has anyone seen anything based on force and coercion that really works? I think a lot of our mentality right now comes from being at war. It is always present in U.S. society though, when we proclaim we are engaged in a war on drugs, a battle against cancer, or whatever...but now I'm rambling on....
>
> Charlie McCarthy
>
> Voice/TDD (406) 449-2344
> Toll Free 1-800-245-4743
> Fax (406) 449-2418
> -----Original Message-----
> From: actmad- [mailto:actmad-] On Behalf Of Marty Felker
> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 2:38 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: [Actmad] reason and emotion
>
> Pat:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Beckie, Sylvia et al.

I've felt like you're advocating here since the 60s.

Here's one dynamic I've discerned. M.L. King, Jr.
advocated for changing "behavioral science" so as to
support "creative maladjustment."

On Mon Apr 12 23:25 , Beckie
would you want to have this done (whatever
>"this" is) to you, your spouse, your father, mother, daughter, son, sister,
>brother, aunt or uncle, niece, nephew or cousin? If the answer is no, then
>why are you considering doing it to anyone else.

>On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 4:16 PM, Sylvia Caras >wrote:
>
>>
>> So how to move to difference, tolerance, liberty, self-management, ...
>> and how to unveil the 'othering', that we seem contagious and
>> frightening and how primitive those reactions to us are. Hmm.

And King, Jr. meant a "social" approach not just a
"well-adjusted ego."

An activist in Berkeley developed a community based program
based on King's model, in the early 70s. Her name was
Barbara Lee. It worked, but evidently it didn't "take off"
like it should. Something was "sticky," I'd say. She went
to school and earned an MSW with community mental health
emphasis. Then she summed things up and got a job working
for Congressman Dellums. Now he's the Mayor of Oakland and
she's the head of the Congressional Black Caucus.

Maybe we can network her back in with our advocacy?

Andrew Phelps

---- Msg sent via CWNet -
http://www.cwnet.com/

_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Beckie.

My wife took asked the same questions during trainings of CIT
officers. It didn't appear to make much of a difference even though all
the officers said they either knew or had a family member that was
diagnosed. Stigma around diagnosed people is still the norm as far as I
am concerned. Of course stigma around psychiatrists should be increased
because of the Fort Hood shootings (interestingly nobody has come forth
as one of the patients of Ddr. Hassan - hmm). CIT in theory in theory
should be a positive step but in practice is not for many reasons.

Marty

On 4/12/2010 7:25 PM, Beckie Child wrote:
> Sylvia--
>
> While this does not get at the larger picture of what you envision--one of
> the things that I do when testifying to legislators and working with policy
> makers is ask the question--would you want to have this done (whatever
> "this" is) to you, your spouse, your father, mother, daughter, son, sister,
> brother, aunt or uncle, niece, nephew or cousin? If the answer is no, then
> why are you considering doing it to anyone else. Frequently they cannot
> answer the question--and I don't expect an immediate answer--but it does
> give them pause...not to move from pause to action...that's the next
> step....
>
> beckie
>
> On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 4:16 PM, Sylvia Caras<>wrote:
>
>
>> So how to move to difference, tolerance, liberty, self-management, ...
>> and how to unveil the 'othering', that we seem contagious and
>> frightening and how primitive those reactions to us are. Hmm.
>>
>> Sylvia
>>
>> --
>>
> "Courage in women is often mistaken for insanity."
> psychiatrist to Woodrow Wilson in _Iron Jawed Angels_
>
> www.mhaoforegon.com
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. I certainly don't doubt this at all. But it might be marked in advance
that, at least in VA (and I think at a fatal shooting in Albuquerque a
few years back) CIT officers are in fact not allowed by their superiors
to respond to all but trivial situations. This is contrary to the
entire concept. I daresay that many officers take the training to get a
small increase in pay and a cool button.

Marty


On 4/12/2010 10:14 PM, Andrew Phelps wrote:
> Hi
>
> Had occasion Friday to take on the head of CIT for the
> Silicon Valley, his deputy, and the NAMI leader in league.
> He blinked.
>
> The Vietnamese advocate kept explaining about "fear of
> the police" in the Vietnamese community. Finally the
> CIT person "lost it" and started arguing back, like the
> criticism was personal.
>
> On Tue Apr 13 0:10 , Beckie Child<> sent:
>
>
>> My biggest critique of CIT is that it is too
>> focused on diagnoses--knowing
>> how I've been labeled is not going to help you
>> communicate with me if I'm
>> experiencing duress. It's the heart to heart communication that
>> works--that's what happens when you involve more mh professionals than
>> people who have been labeled and diagnosed.
>>
> In this instance the police were looking at getting
> money for a contract on "mobile crisis" with County
> M.H. For them, heart-to-heart communication led to
> embarrassment in the face of the advocates and the
> "client/survivor" activists. In MHSA this is called
> "innovations" but the fact is the police will get
> their money.
>
>
>
> Andrew Phelps
>
> ---- Msg sent via CWNet -
> http://www.cwnet.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. Pat:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. I agree with you--that question doesn't generally work with law enforcement
officers--but I have seen some legislators give pause--and then get confused
as they think about the inconsistencies with what they are proposing and the
idea that this could be done to them or their family members...I should say
that it doesn't work on all policy makers--that's why I'm trying to move
from pause to action...

My biggest critique of CIT is that it is too focused on diagnoses--knowing
how I've been labeled is not going to help you communicate with me if I'm
experiencing duress. It's the heart to heart communication that
works--that's what happens when you involve more mh professionals than
people who have been labeled and diagnosed.

beckie

On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 4:59 PM, Marty Felker <> wrote:

> Beckie.
>
> My wife took asked the same questions during trainings of CIT officers.
> It didn't appear to make much of a difference even though all the officers
> said they either knew or had a family member that was diagnosed. Stigma
> around diagnosed people is still the norm as far as I am concerned. Of
> course stigma around psychiatrists should be increased because of the Fort
> Hood shootings (interestingly nobody has come forth as one of the patients
> of Ddr. Hassan - hmm). CIT in theory in theory should be a positive step but
> in practice is not for many reasons.
>
>
--
"Courage in women is often mistaken for insanity."
psychiatrist to Woodrow Wilson in _Iron Jawed Angels_

www.mhaoforegon.com
_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe. It really depends on the jurisdiction and how they conceptualized CIT. It
does vary from place to place.

beckie

On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 10:17 AM, Marty Felker <>wrote:

> I certainly don't doubt this at all. But it might be marked in advance
> that, at least in VA (and I think at a fatal shooting in Albuquerque a few
> years back) CIT officers are in fact not allowed by their superiors to
> respond to all but trivial situations. This is contrary to the entire
> concept. I daresay that many officers take the training to get a small
> increase in pay and a cool button.
>
>
--
"Courage in women is often mistaken for insanity."
psychiatrist to Woodrow Wilson in _Iron Jawed Angels_

www.mhaoforegon.com
_______________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Posted on the Actmad mailing list. Go to http://actmad.net/mailman/listinfo/actmad_actmad.net to subscribe.