> I don't usually write like this, have been TWer long enough. Don't use this as my writing sample! These are the facts:
> I left a job.
> I was salary.
> Hourly rate calculated @ $22.
> Offered contract @ old job.
> Old job wants 13 hours a week.
> Hourly rate $22, same as salary hourly rate.

Nonononono.... Hourly rate >= 2x salary hourly rate. Otherwise when
tax time comes, or doctor visits are needed, you're screwed.

> Tax person said, "Save 50% of net pay for taxes."
> That would make it $11/hour.
> I don't want that.
> 11 x 13 = 143 net pay
> I want 50
> 25 x 13 =  325 net pay
> I will work 9-1130 PM Sun through Thur.
> I want the extra $ for extra things I want to buy and provide for my family.
> I get up every day @ 6 AM.
> That means 6-ish hours sleep.
> 53 hours/week
> I'm young enough, can handle that.

I'm a bit lost with the above but I think I catch your drift.

> What do I do?
> 1) Take 22 and make 143/week
> 2) Walk away
> 3) Counter with 44 so my actual take home is 286
>
> Do you think countering lower than 44 is worth it in this situation?

No. $22/hr is an insulting rate for a professional. Your salary
calculated hourly is not an accurate equal rate and your
employer/client likely knows this. Counter with $44 or MORE and if
questioned explain that everything that comes with a salary now needs
to be factored into an hourly contract rate to accommodate being taxed
as a self-employed person, to accommodate health insurance costs, and
to accommodate all the other costs that come with running a business,
since you are now your own employee.

> Questioning ...

Answering... Stand up for yourself and the value you deliver.

--
Bill Swallow

Twitter: @techcommdood
Blog: http://techcommdood.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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Choose your authoring formats and get any output you may need. Try
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)

> I don't usually write like this, have been TWer long enough. Don't use this as my writing sample! These are the facts:
> I left a job.
> I was salary.
> Hourly rate calculated @ $22.
> Offered contract @ old job.
> Old job wants 13 hours a week.
> Hourly rate $22, same as salary hourly rate.

Nonononono.... Hourly rate >= 2x salary hourly rate. Otherwise when
tax time comes, or doctor visits are needed, you're screwed.

> Tax person said, "Save 50% of net pay for taxes."
> That would make it $11/hour.
> I don't want that.
> 11 x 13 = 143 net pay
> I want 50
> 25 x 13 =  325 net pay
> I will work 9-1130 PM Sun through Thur.
> I want the extra $ for extra things I want to buy and provide for my family.
> I get up every day @ 6 AM.
> That means 6-ish hours sleep.
> 53 hours/week
> I'm young enough, can handle that.

I'm a bit lost with the above but I think I catch your drift.

> What do I do?
> 1) Take 22 and make 143/week
> 2) Walk away
> 3) Counter with 44 so my actual take home is 286
>
> Do you think countering lower than 44 is worth it in this situation?

No. $22/hr is an insulting rate for a professional. Your salary
calculated hourly is not an accurate equal rate and your
employer/client likely knows this. Counter with $44 or MORE and if
questioned explain that everything that comes with a salary now needs
to be factored into an hourly contract rate to accommodate being taxed
as a self-employed person, to accommodate health insurance costs, and
to accommodate all the other costs that come with running a business,
since you are now your own employee.

> Questioning ...

Answering... Stand up for yourself and the value you deliver.

--
Bill Swallow

Twitter: @techcommdood
Blog: http://techcommdood.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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Choose your authoring formats and get any output you may need. Try
Doc-To-Help, now with MS SharePoint integration, free for 30-days.
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) Sorry, but you don't go into business for yourself - voluntarily or
otherwise - to bend over backwards to make your prospective clients
happy. You strive to meet their needs within your constraints. If you
don't set standards for yourself, you'll never be taken seriously by
your clients.

On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 12:02 PM, Keith Hood <> wrote:
> I think the question about benefits and equivalence is not germane. The whole point for the company, in offering to hire him back on contract, is to get the same work at lower cost by removing the back-end costs like insurance premiums.  It would make no economic sense for them to hire him back at a rate that costs them as much as it would if he was salaried.
>
> I'd say agree to the 13 hours a week, because that allows you enough time to look for other contract jobs. Ask for a pay rate of $25 an hour and point out that since they're no longer paying for your health insurance and other overhead, they're still saving a lot of money even at the slightly higher pay rate.  If you ask for more than $25 an hour they'll probably just go find some kid right out of school and offer him $20.

--
Bill Swallow

Twitter: @techcommdood
Blog: http://techcommdood.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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)

> I don't usually write like this, have been TWer long enough. Don't use this as my writing sample! These are the facts:
> I left a job.
> I was salary.
> Hourly rate calculated @ $22.
> Offered contract @ old job.
> Old job wants 13 hours a week.
> Hourly rate $22, same as salary hourly rate.

Nonononono.... Hourly rate >= 2x salary hourly rate. Otherwise when
tax time comes, or doctor visits are needed, you're screwed.

> Tax person said, "Save 50% of net pay for taxes."
> That would make it $11/hour.
> I don't want that.
> 11 x 13 = 143 net pay
> I want 50
> 25 x 13 =  325 net pay
> I will work 9-1130 PM Sun through Thur.
> I want the extra $ for extra things I want to buy and provide for my family.
> I get up every day @ 6 AM.
> That means 6-ish hours sleep.
> 53 hours/week
> I'm young enough, can handle that.

I'm a bit lost with the above but I think I catch your drift.

> What do I do?
> 1) Take 22 and make 143/week
> 2) Walk away
> 3) Counter with 44 so my actual take home is 286
>
> Do you think countering lower than 44 is worth it in this situation?

No. $22/hr is an insulting rate for a professional. Your salary
calculated hourly is not an accurate equal rate and your
employer/client likely knows this. Counter with $44 or MORE and if
questioned explain that everything that comes with a salary now needs
to be factored into an hourly contract rate to accommodate being taxed
as a self-employed person, to accommodate health insurance costs, and
to accommodate all the other costs that come with running a business,
since you are now your own employee.

> Questioning ...

Answering... Stand up for yourself and the value you deliver.

--
Bill Swallow

Twitter: @techcommdood
Blog: http://techcommdood.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Create and publish documentation through multiple channels with Doc-To-Help.
Choose your authoring formats and get any output you may need. Try
Doc-To-Help, now with MS SharePoint integration, free for 30-days.
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) Sorry, but you don't go into business for yourself - voluntarily or
otherwise - to bend over backwards to make your prospective clients
happy. You strive to meet their needs within your constraints. If you
don't set standards for yourself, you'll never be taken seriously by
your clients.

On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 12:02 PM, Keith Hood <> wrote:
> I think the question about benefits and equivalence is not germane. The whole point for the company, in offering to hire him back on contract, is to get the same work at lower cost by removing the back-end costs like insurance premiums.  It would make no economic sense for them to hire him back at a rate that costs them as much as it would if he was salaried.
>
> I'd say agree to the 13 hours a week, because that allows you enough time to look for other contract jobs. Ask for a pay rate of $25 an hour and point out that since they're no longer paying for your health insurance and other overhead, they're still saving a lot of money even at the slightly higher pay rate.  If you ask for more than $25 an hour they'll probably just go find some kid right out of school and offer him $20.

--
Bill Swallow

Twitter: @techcommdood
Blog: http://techcommdood.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Create and publish documentation through multiple channels with Doc-To-Help.
Choose your authoring formats and get any output you may need. Try
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) Ultimately, every decision about rates hinges on how badly you need the job
and how badly the client needs you. The OP doesn't appear to be in survival
mode.

Gene Kim-Eng



On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 2:47 PM, Keith Hood <> wrote:

> I understand that, but unfortunately the market is nothing like what it was
> 5 years ago. For myself, since I don't have a huge nest egg to sit on while
> I look for good work, I'd treat the 13 hr/week job as a survival wage that
> pays for the food and gas while I look for something better. For people who
> have 28 degrees and certificates it may be OK to insist on high standards.
> For everybody else right now it is very definitely a bottom feeder's market.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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)

> I don't usually write like this, have been TWer long enough. Don't use this as my writing sample! These are the facts:
> I left a job.
> I was salary.
> Hourly rate calculated @ $22.
> Offered contract @ old job.
> Old job wants 13 hours a week.
> Hourly rate $22, same as salary hourly rate.

Nonononono.... Hourly rate >= 2x salary hourly rate. Otherwise when
tax time comes, or doctor visits are needed, you're screwed.

> Tax person said, "Save 50% of net pay for taxes."
> That would make it $11/hour.
> I don't want that.
> 11 x 13 = 143 net pay
> I want 50
> 25 x 13 =  325 net pay
> I will work 9-1130 PM Sun through Thur.
> I want the extra $ for extra things I want to buy and provide for my family.
> I get up every day @ 6 AM.
> That means 6-ish hours sleep.
> 53 hours/week
> I'm young enough, can handle that.

I'm a bit lost with the above but I think I catch your drift.

> What do I do?
> 1) Take 22 and make 143/week
> 2) Walk away
> 3) Counter with 44 so my actual take home is 286
>
> Do you think countering lower than 44 is worth it in this situation?

No. $22/hr is an insulting rate for a professional. Your salary
calculated hourly is not an accurate equal rate and your
employer/client likely knows this. Counter with $44 or MORE and if
questioned explain that everything that comes with a salary now needs
to be factored into an hourly contract rate to accommodate being taxed
as a self-employed person, to accommodate health insurance costs, and
to accommodate all the other costs that come with running a business,
since you are now your own employee.

> Questioning ...

Answering... Stand up for yourself and the value you deliver.

--
Bill Swallow

Twitter: @techcommdood
Blog: http://techcommdood.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Create and publish documentation through multiple channels with Doc-To-Help.
Choose your authoring formats and get any output you may need. Try
Doc-To-Help, now with MS SharePoint integration, free for 30-days.
http://www.doctohelp.com

---
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) Sorry, but you don't go into business for yourself - voluntarily or
otherwise - to bend over backwards to make your prospective clients
happy. You strive to meet their needs within your constraints. If you
don't set standards for yourself, you'll never be taken seriously by
your clients.

On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 12:02 PM, Keith Hood <> wrote:
> I think the question about benefits and equivalence is not germane. The whole point for the company, in offering to hire him back on contract, is to get the same work at lower cost by removing the back-end costs like insurance premiums.  It would make no economic sense for them to hire him back at a rate that costs them as much as it would if he was salaried.
>
> I'd say agree to the 13 hours a week, because that allows you enough time to look for other contract jobs. Ask for a pay rate of $25 an hour and point out that since they're no longer paying for your health insurance and other overhead, they're still saving a lot of money even at the slightly higher pay rate.  If you ask for more than $25 an hour they'll probably just go find some kid right out of school and offer him $20.

--
Bill Swallow

Twitter: @techcommdood
Blog: http://techcommdood.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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) Ultimately, every decision about rates hinges on how badly you need the job
and how badly the client needs you. The OP doesn't appear to be in survival
mode.

Gene Kim-Eng



On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 2:47 PM, Keith Hood <> wrote:

> I understand that, but unfortunately the market is nothing like what it was
> 5 years ago. For myself, since I don't have a huge nest egg to sit on while
> I look for good work, I'd treat the 13 hr/week job as a survival wage that
> pays for the food and gas while I look for something better. For people who
> have 28 degrees and certificates it may be OK to insist on high standards.
> For everybody else right now it is very definitely a bottom feeder's market.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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) Frankly, I don't see how it I can possibly not take your message
the wrong way, if the wrong way is to disagree with you.



JUST because I need work? My congratulations if you are so well off
that you think that which keeps me alive is a lesser concern than the "industry" remaining "competitive." I'm sorry if I'm betraying the "industry" by
being willing to accept lower wages than what I got 2 years ago because
I have this strange need to know that I can buy groceries next month.



No, I don't just need work. I need to stay alive. Work is JUST the thing that makes that possible.



Mine is the logic of living without a huge nest egg in a badly
deteriorated market where there are lots of competition for openings
and very few openings. As for whether or not I'm helping the "industry"
remaining "competitive," I'll let that be a concern when the
"industry" coughs up the rent money I won't have if I worry more about remaining "competitive" than I worry about getting a job. You want to
know a real definition of not remaining competitive? Being unable to
look for work because the internet access has been cut off for lack of
payment.



Where do you live that you consider $22 an hour poverty wages? Beverly Hills? It certainly won't pay for a house with a swimming pool but there have been many years I'd have cheerfully committed...if not murder, than at least some serious crime for a pay rate that high.



I've been either unemployed or ridiculously underemployed for more than
a year and a half, largely because I have been trying to resist the downward spiral of wages. I have used up my
unemployment benefits and burned through all the savings I had. I've
turned down jobs at $25 and $27 an hour because they were on 1099 or
because I thought the nature and scope of the work justified higher
rates. I finally took a job at $27 an hour because the unemployment was running out, and that job is now over. My last month in that job they limited me to less than 20 hours a week because the project went over schedule and the money was drying up. In the last 20 months I've had exactly one possibility that
offered more than $29 an hour, and I couldn't get that because I've never used
XMetal. And you want me to stand firm and demand $40 an hour so I can
help the "industry" remain "competitive?" If the "industry" wants me to make it even harder on myself to find work for its sake, then the "industry" can back me up in a meaningful way or it can take a hike.



Who said anything about offering to work for free? Where did you get that?



I know all the cant about how our work adds value to the company and
its products. Tell it to the places where I've been getting turned down
for jobs. They don't listen to me when I try to tell them. And if the
documenting work is for internal use, they won't care about any spiel
related to customers.



Specialization. Concentrating on a few limited types of work? In a down
market? The number of companies that may have need for a tech writer is
down, all the companies remaining in those fields are much smaller than
they were, lots of them are still downsizing, there are many more
people looking for fewer jobs, and you think in these circumstances it
makes sense to limit the number of fields in which I look for work?
That's like in the middle of a famine you decide to eat only one type
of vegetable.

Maybe you can afford your definition of "competitive." I can't.

End of rant. Down off soapboax. Everybody on the list have fun and I wish you good luck. Good night.


--- On Mon, 10/25/10, Tony Chung <> wrote:

From: Tony Chung <>
Subject: Re: Rates
To: "TECHWR-L"
Date: Monday, October 25, 2010, 8:21 PM

Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
for the entire industry to remain competitive. Employers will ask why
bother hiring a contractor at $40-100/hour when they can hire
experienced people for $20/hour?

As professionals we need to communicate a value that transcends cost.
Quality technical writing mitigates risk, reduces customer support
calls, and improves customer satisfaction with the company overall.
You can't justify working for free or cheap in the light of what you
offer the company.

For those who are looking for work, when the going gets tough, the
tough specialize. Are there areas in which you could specialize?
Subject matter expertise, production speed, understanding of
collaborative writing, multi-channel deliverables, multi-sourcing,
social media, documentation through the development process, training
materials development, business analysis, content strategy and
migration, programming, hardware testing ... any of these increase
your core value beyond the generalist fresh out of college.

For $18 to 22/hour, I could score a sweet government job in the typing
pool. The higher wages are for greater responsibility, for instance,
accounting or materials management. As a programming technical writer
I feel that I should be able to increase profits for the compan(ies)
that hire me more than enough to accommodate my desired wage.

-Tony
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)

> I don't usually write like this, have been TWer long enough. Don't use this as my writing sample! These are the facts:
> I left a job.
> I was salary.
> Hourly rate calculated @ $22.
> Offered contract @ old job.
> Old job wants 13 hours a week.
> Hourly rate $22, same as salary hourly rate.

Nonononono.... Hourly rate >= 2x salary hourly rate. Otherwise when
tax time comes, or doctor visits are needed, you're screwed.

> Tax person said, "Save 50% of net pay for taxes."
> That would make it $11/hour.
> I don't want that.
> 11 x 13 = 143 net pay
> I want 50
> 25 x 13 =  325 net pay
> I will work 9-1130 PM Sun through Thur.
> I want the extra $ for extra things I want to buy and provide for my family.
> I get up every day @ 6 AM.
> That means 6-ish hours sleep.
> 53 hours/week
> I'm young enough, can handle that.

I'm a bit lost with the above but I think I catch your drift.

> What do I do?
> 1) Take 22 and make 143/week
> 2) Walk away
> 3) Counter with 44 so my actual take home is 286
>
> Do you think countering lower than 44 is worth it in this situation?

No. $22/hr is an insulting rate for a professional. Your salary
calculated hourly is not an accurate equal rate and your
employer/client likely knows this. Counter with $44 or MORE and if
questioned explain that everything that comes with a salary now needs
to be factored into an hourly contract rate to accommodate being taxed
as a self-employed person, to accommodate health insurance costs, and
to accommodate all the other costs that come with running a business,
since you are now your own employee.

> Questioning ...

Answering... Stand up for yourself and the value you deliver.

--
Bill Swallow

Twitter: @techcommdood
Blog: http://techcommdood.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Create and publish documentation through multiple channels with Doc-To-Help.
Choose your authoring formats and get any output you may need. Try
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) Sorry, but you don't go into business for yourself - voluntarily or
otherwise - to bend over backwards to make your prospective clients
happy. You strive to meet their needs within your constraints. If you
don't set standards for yourself, you'll never be taken seriously by
your clients.

On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 12:02 PM, Keith Hood <> wrote:
> I think the question about benefits and equivalence is not germane. The whole point for the company, in offering to hire him back on contract, is to get the same work at lower cost by removing the back-end costs like insurance premiums.  It would make no economic sense for them to hire him back at a rate that costs them as much as it would if he was salaried.
>
> I'd say agree to the 13 hours a week, because that allows you enough time to look for other contract jobs. Ask for a pay rate of $25 an hour and point out that since they're no longer paying for your health insurance and other overhead, they're still saving a lot of money even at the slightly higher pay rate.  If you ask for more than $25 an hour they'll probably just go find some kid right out of school and offer him $20.

--
Bill Swallow

Twitter: @techcommdood
Blog: http://techcommdood.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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) Ultimately, every decision about rates hinges on how badly you need the job
and how badly the client needs you. The OP doesn't appear to be in survival
mode.

Gene Kim-Eng



On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 2:47 PM, Keith Hood <> wrote:

> I understand that, but unfortunately the market is nothing like what it was
> 5 years ago. For myself, since I don't have a huge nest egg to sit on while
> I look for good work, I'd treat the 13 hr/week job as a survival wage that
> pays for the food and gas while I look for something better. For people who
> have 28 degrees and certificates it may be OK to insist on high standards.
> For everybody else right now it is very definitely a bottom feeder's market.
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) Frankly, I don't see how it I can possibly not take your message
the wrong way, if the wrong way is to disagree with you.



JUST because I need work? My congratulations if you are so well off
that you think that which keeps me alive is a lesser concern than the "industry" remaining "competitive." I'm sorry if I'm betraying the "industry" by
being willing to accept lower wages than what I got 2 years ago because
I have this strange need to know that I can buy groceries next month.



No, I don't just need work. I need to stay alive. Work is JUST the thing that makes that possible.



Mine is the logic of living without a huge nest egg in a badly
deteriorated market where there are lots of competition for openings
and very few openings. As for whether or not I'm helping the "industry"
remaining "competitive," I'll let that be a concern when the
"industry" coughs up the rent money I won't have if I worry more about remaining "competitive" than I worry about getting a job. You want to
know a real definition of not remaining competitive? Being unable to
look for work because the internet access has been cut off for lack of
payment.



Where do you live that you consider $22 an hour poverty wages? Beverly Hills? It certainly won't pay for a house with a swimming pool but there have been many years I'd have cheerfully committed...if not murder, than at least some serious crime for a pay rate that high.



I've been either unemployed or ridiculously underemployed for more than
a year and a half, largely because I have been trying to resist the downward spiral of wages. I have used up my
unemployment benefits and burned through all the savings I had. I've
turned down jobs at $25 and $27 an hour because they were on 1099 or
because I thought the nature and scope of the work justified higher
rates. I finally took a job at $27 an hour because the unemployment was running out, and that job is now over. My last month in that job they limited me to less than 20 hours a week because the project went over schedule and the money was drying up. In the last 20 months I've had exactly one possibility that
offered more than $29 an hour, and I couldn't get that because I've never used
XMetal. And you want me to stand firm and demand $40 an hour so I can
help the "industry" remain "competitive?" If the "industry" wants me to make it even harder on myself to find work for its sake, then the "industry" can back me up in a meaningful way or it can take a hike.



Who said anything about offering to work for free? Where did you get that?



I know all the cant about how our work adds value to the company and
its products. Tell it to the places where I've been getting turned down
for jobs. They don't listen to me when I try to tell them. And if the
documenting work is for internal use, they won't care about any spiel
related to customers.



Specialization. Concentrating on a few limited types of work? In a down
market? The number of companies that may have need for a tech writer is
down, all the companies remaining in those fields are much smaller than
they were, lots of them are still downsizing, there are many more
people looking for fewer jobs, and you think in these circumstances it
makes sense to limit the number of fields in which I look for work?
That's like in the middle of a famine you decide to eat only one type
of vegetable.

Maybe you can afford your definition of "competitive." I can't.

End of rant. Down off soapboax. Everybody on the list have fun and I wish you good luck. Good night.


--- On Mon, 10/25/10, Tony Chung <> wrote:

From: Tony Chung <>
Subject: Re: Rates
To: "TECHWR-L"
Date: Monday, October 25, 2010, 8:21 PM

Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
for the entire industry to remain competitive. Employers will ask why
bother hiring a contractor at $40-100/hour when they can hire
experienced people for $20/hour?

As professionals we need to communicate a value that transcends cost.
Quality technical writing mitigates risk, reduces customer support
calls, and improves customer satisfaction with the company overall.
You can't justify working for free or cheap in the light of what you
offer the company.

For those who are looking for work, when the going gets tough, the
tough specialize. Are there areas in which you could specialize?
Subject matter expertise, production speed, understanding of
collaborative writing, multi-channel deliverables, multi-sourcing,
social media, documentation through the development process, training
materials development, business analysis, content strategy and
migration, programming, hardware testing ... any of these increase
your core value beyond the generalist fresh out of college.

For $18 to 22/hour, I could score a sweet government job in the typing
pool. The higher wages are for greater responsibility, for instance,
accounting or materials management. As a programming technical writer
I feel that I should be able to increase profits for the compan(ies)
that hire me more than enough to accommodate my desired wage.

-Tony
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) Tony Chung wrote:

"Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
for the entire industry to remain competitive. Employers will ask why
bother hiring a contractor at $40-100/hour when they can hire
experienced people for $20/hour?"

While I understand Mr Chung's thought process, I do not agree with it.

The OP needs income to maintain his life -- many of us have been there. I would suggest that he (the OP) negotiate a better rate, taking into account all the expenses noted in the many posts in this thread. Doubling what he called the "hourly rate" would be a good ballpark in which to start.

While I think we all owe ourselves, our clients, and our profession the best work we can deliver, suggesting that we are responsible to each other for the maintenance of a specific compensation level is, in my opinion, mistaken.

John Rosberg
Documentation and Training

2765 Deerfield Road
Riverwoods, IL 60015
847-502-1833




^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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)

> I don't usually write like this, have been TWer long enough. Don't use this as my writing sample! These are the facts:
> I left a job.
> I was salary.
> Hourly rate calculated @ $22.
> Offered contract @ old job.
> Old job wants 13 hours a week.
> Hourly rate $22, same as salary hourly rate.

Nonononono.... Hourly rate >= 2x salary hourly rate. Otherwise when
tax time comes, or doctor visits are needed, you're screwed.

> Tax person said, "Save 50% of net pay for taxes."
> That would make it $11/hour.
> I don't want that.
> 11 x 13 = 143 net pay
> I want 50
> 25 x 13 =  325 net pay
> I will work 9-1130 PM Sun through Thur.
> I want the extra $ for extra things I want to buy and provide for my family.
> I get up every day @ 6 AM.
> That means 6-ish hours sleep.
> 53 hours/week
> I'm young enough, can handle that.

I'm a bit lost with the above but I think I catch your drift.

> What do I do?
> 1) Take 22 and make 143/week
> 2) Walk away
> 3) Counter with 44 so my actual take home is 286
>
> Do you think countering lower than 44 is worth it in this situation?

No. $22/hr is an insulting rate for a professional. Your salary
calculated hourly is not an accurate equal rate and your
employer/client likely knows this. Counter with $44 or MORE and if
questioned explain that everything that comes with a salary now needs
to be factored into an hourly contract rate to accommodate being taxed
as a self-employed person, to accommodate health insurance costs, and
to accommodate all the other costs that come with running a business,
since you are now your own employee.

> Questioning ...

Answering... Stand up for yourself and the value you deliver.

--
Bill Swallow

Twitter: @techcommdood
Blog: http://techcommdood.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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) Sorry, but you don't go into business for yourself - voluntarily or
otherwise - to bend over backwards to make your prospective clients
happy. You strive to meet their needs within your constraints. If you
don't set standards for yourself, you'll never be taken seriously by
your clients.

On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 12:02 PM, Keith Hood <> wrote:
> I think the question about benefits and equivalence is not germane. The whole point for the company, in offering to hire him back on contract, is to get the same work at lower cost by removing the back-end costs like insurance premiums.  It would make no economic sense for them to hire him back at a rate that costs them as much as it would if he was salaried.
>
> I'd say agree to the 13 hours a week, because that allows you enough time to look for other contract jobs. Ask for a pay rate of $25 an hour and point out that since they're no longer paying for your health insurance and other overhead, they're still saving a lot of money even at the slightly higher pay rate.  If you ask for more than $25 an hour they'll probably just go find some kid right out of school and offer him $20.

--
Bill Swallow

Twitter: @techcommdood
Blog: http://techcommdood.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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) Ultimately, every decision about rates hinges on how badly you need the job
and how badly the client needs you. The OP doesn't appear to be in survival
mode.

Gene Kim-Eng



On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 2:47 PM, Keith Hood <> wrote:

> I understand that, but unfortunately the market is nothing like what it was
> 5 years ago. For myself, since I don't have a huge nest egg to sit on while
> I look for good work, I'd treat the 13 hr/week job as a survival wage that
> pays for the food and gas while I look for something better. For people who
> have 28 degrees and certificates it may be OK to insist on high standards.
> For everybody else right now it is very definitely a bottom feeder's market.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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) Frankly, I don't see how it I can possibly not take your message
the wrong way, if the wrong way is to disagree with you.



JUST because I need work? My congratulations if you are so well off
that you think that which keeps me alive is a lesser concern than the "industry" remaining "competitive." I'm sorry if I'm betraying the "industry" by
being willing to accept lower wages than what I got 2 years ago because
I have this strange need to know that I can buy groceries next month.



No, I don't just need work. I need to stay alive. Work is JUST the thing that makes that possible.



Mine is the logic of living without a huge nest egg in a badly
deteriorated market where there are lots of competition for openings
and very few openings. As for whether or not I'm helping the "industry"
remaining "competitive," I'll let that be a concern when the
"industry" coughs up the rent money I won't have if I worry more about remaining "competitive" than I worry about getting a job. You want to
know a real definition of not remaining competitive? Being unable to
look for work because the internet access has been cut off for lack of
payment.



Where do you live that you consider $22 an hour poverty wages? Beverly Hills? It certainly won't pay for a house with a swimming pool but there have been many years I'd have cheerfully committed...if not murder, than at least some serious crime for a pay rate that high.



I've been either unemployed or ridiculously underemployed for more than
a year and a half, largely because I have been trying to resist the downward spiral of wages. I have used up my
unemployment benefits and burned through all the savings I had. I've
turned down jobs at $25 and $27 an hour because they were on 1099 or
because I thought the nature and scope of the work justified higher
rates. I finally took a job at $27 an hour because the unemployment was running out, and that job is now over. My last month in that job they limited me to less than 20 hours a week because the project went over schedule and the money was drying up. In the last 20 months I've had exactly one possibility that
offered more than $29 an hour, and I couldn't get that because I've never used
XMetal. And you want me to stand firm and demand $40 an hour so I can
help the "industry" remain "competitive?" If the "industry" wants me to make it even harder on myself to find work for its sake, then the "industry" can back me up in a meaningful way or it can take a hike.



Who said anything about offering to work for free? Where did you get that?



I know all the cant about how our work adds value to the company and
its products. Tell it to the places where I've been getting turned down
for jobs. They don't listen to me when I try to tell them. And if the
documenting work is for internal use, they won't care about any spiel
related to customers.



Specialization. Concentrating on a few limited types of work? In a down
market? The number of companies that may have need for a tech writer is
down, all the companies remaining in those fields are much smaller than
they were, lots of them are still downsizing, there are many more
people looking for fewer jobs, and you think in these circumstances it
makes sense to limit the number of fields in which I look for work?
That's like in the middle of a famine you decide to eat only one type
of vegetable.

Maybe you can afford your definition of "competitive." I can't.

End of rant. Down off soapboax. Everybody on the list have fun and I wish you good luck. Good night.


--- On Mon, 10/25/10, Tony Chung <> wrote:

From: Tony Chung <>
Subject: Re: Rates
To: "TECHWR-L"
Date: Monday, October 25, 2010, 8:21 PM

Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
for the entire industry to remain competitive. Employers will ask why
bother hiring a contractor at $40-100/hour when they can hire
experienced people for $20/hour?

As professionals we need to communicate a value that transcends cost.
Quality technical writing mitigates risk, reduces customer support
calls, and improves customer satisfaction with the company overall.
You can't justify working for free or cheap in the light of what you
offer the company.

For those who are looking for work, when the going gets tough, the
tough specialize. Are there areas in which you could specialize?
Subject matter expertise, production speed, understanding of
collaborative writing, multi-channel deliverables, multi-sourcing,
social media, documentation through the development process, training
materials development, business analysis, content strategy and
migration, programming, hardware testing ... any of these increase
your core value beyond the generalist fresh out of college.

For $18 to 22/hour, I could score a sweet government job in the typing
pool. The higher wages are for greater responsibility, for instance,
accounting or materials management. As a programming technical writer
I feel that I should be able to increase profits for the compan(ies)
that hire me more than enough to accommodate my desired wage.

-Tony
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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) Tony Chung wrote:

"Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
for the entire industry to remain competitive. Employers will ask why
bother hiring a contractor at $40-100/hour when they can hire
experienced people for $20/hour?"

While I understand Mr Chung's thought process, I do not agree with it.

The OP needs income to maintain his life -- many of us have been there. I would suggest that he (the OP) negotiate a better rate, taking into account all the expenses noted in the many posts in this thread. Doubling what he called the "hourly rate" would be a good ballpark in which to start.

While I think we all owe ourselves, our clients, and our profession the best work we can deliver, suggesting that we are responsible to each other for the maintenance of a specific compensation level is, in my opinion, mistaken.

John Rosberg
Documentation and Training

2765 Deerfield Road
Riverwoods, IL 60015
847-502-1833




^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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) I agree with both positions to a degree. I took a "lowball" contract
between full-time jobs, and while it kept the lights on, it also ate
into other opportunities I was able to land at about twice (if not
more) the rate. It actually hindered me from taking on some of these
more substantial gigs.

If you feel you need to take a lowball offer to stay solvent, then by
all means do so. But, through experience (mine and that of those I
know) I can say that taking a lower wage just to stay afloat may not
always be the best option, and can create problems over time. Rather
than scratch at what you can get, it may (also) be a good time to
start thinking about what you want.

On a side note, a friend of mine had a very good paying engineering
job that he absolutely hated. He decided to save as much as possible
once the hint of layoffs started floating through the office. When he
was laid off, he took time to figure out exactly what to do, living
off unemployment and savings. He decided to switch gears completely
and intern, for free, at a brewery. He is now about to go to the
Siebel Institute of Technology for a formal degree in brewing science
on the remainder of his savings, and has decided to downscale his life
accordingly until he's up and running as a paid brewer. And, he's
never been happier.

On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 9:09 AM, john rosberg <> wrote:
>
> Tony Chung wrote:
>
> "Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
> accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
> for the entire industry to remain competitive. Employers will ask why
> bother hiring a contractor at $40-100/hour when they can hire
> experienced people for $20/hour?"
>
> While I understand Mr Chung's thought process, I do not agree with it.
>
> The OP needs income to maintain his life -- many of us have been there. I would suggest that he (the OP) negotiate a better rate, taking into account all the expenses noted in the many posts in this thread. Doubling what he called the "hourly rate" would be a good ballpark in which to start.
>
> While I think we all owe ourselves, our clients, and our profession the best work we can deliver, suggesting that we are responsible to each other for the maintenance of a specific compensation level is, in my opinion, mistaken.

--
Bill Swallow

Twitter: @techcommdood
Blog: http://techcommdood.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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)

> I don't usually write like this, have been TWer long enough. Don't use this as my writing sample! These are the facts:
> I left a job.
> I was salary.
> Hourly rate calculated @ $22.
> Offered contract @ old job.
> Old job wants 13 hours a week.
> Hourly rate $22, same as salary hourly rate.

Nonononono.... Hourly rate >= 2x salary hourly rate. Otherwise when
tax time comes, or doctor visits are needed, you're screwed.

> Tax person said, "Save 50% of net pay for taxes."
> That would make it $11/hour.
> I don't want that.
> 11 x 13 = 143 net pay
> I want 50
> 25 x 13 =  325 net pay
> I will work 9-1130 PM Sun through Thur.
> I want the extra $ for extra things I want to buy and provide for my family.
> I get up every day @ 6 AM.
> That means 6-ish hours sleep.
> 53 hours/week
> I'm young enough, can handle that.

I'm a bit lost with the above but I think I catch your drift.

> What do I do?
> 1) Take 22 and make 143/week
> 2) Walk away
> 3) Counter with 44 so my actual take home is 286
>
> Do you think countering lower than 44 is worth it in this situation?

No. $22/hr is an insulting rate for a professional. Your salary
calculated hourly is not an accurate equal rate and your
employer/client likely knows this. Counter with $44 or MORE and if
questioned explain that everything that comes with a salary now needs
to be factored into an hourly contract rate to accommodate being taxed
as a self-employed person, to accommodate health insurance costs, and
to accommodate all the other costs that come with running a business,
since you are now your own employee.

> Questioning ...

Answering... Stand up for yourself and the value you deliver.

--
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Twitter: @techcommdood
Blog: http://techcommdood.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
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) Sorry, but you don't go into business for yourself - voluntarily or
otherwise - to bend over backwards to make your prospective clients
happy. You strive to meet their needs within your constraints. If you
don't set standards for yourself, you'll never be taken seriously by
your clients.

On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 12:02 PM, Keith Hood <> wrote:
> I think the question about benefits and equivalence is not germane. The whole point for the company, in offering to hire him back on contract, is to get the same work at lower cost by removing the back-end costs like insurance premiums.  It would make no economic sense for them to hire him back at a rate that costs them as much as it would if he was salaried.
>
> I'd say agree to the 13 hours a week, because that allows you enough time to look for other contract jobs. Ask for a pay rate of $25 an hour and point out that since they're no longer paying for your health insurance and other overhead, they're still saving a lot of money even at the slightly higher pay rate.  If you ask for more than $25 an hour they'll probably just go find some kid right out of school and offer him $20.

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) Ultimately, every decision about rates hinges on how badly you need the job
and how badly the client needs you. The OP doesn't appear to be in survival
mode.

Gene Kim-Eng



On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 2:47 PM, Keith Hood <> wrote:

> I understand that, but unfortunately the market is nothing like what it was
> 5 years ago. For myself, since I don't have a huge nest egg to sit on while
> I look for good work, I'd treat the 13 hr/week job as a survival wage that
> pays for the food and gas while I look for something better. For people who
> have 28 degrees and certificates it may be OK to insist on high standards.
> For everybody else right now it is very definitely a bottom feeder's market.
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) Frankly, I don't see how it I can possibly not take your message
the wrong way, if the wrong way is to disagree with you.



JUST because I need work? My congratulations if you are so well off
that you think that which keeps me alive is a lesser concern than the "industry" remaining "competitive." I'm sorry if I'm betraying the "industry" by
being willing to accept lower wages than what I got 2 years ago because
I have this strange need to know that I can buy groceries next month.



No, I don't just need work. I need to stay alive. Work is JUST the thing that makes that possible.



Mine is the logic of living without a huge nest egg in a badly
deteriorated market where there are lots of competition for openings
and very few openings. As for whether or not I'm helping the "industry"
remaining "competitive," I'll let that be a concern when the
"industry" coughs up the rent money I won't have if I worry more about remaining "competitive" than I worry about getting a job. You want to
know a real definition of not remaining competitive? Being unable to
look for work because the internet access has been cut off for lack of
payment.



Where do you live that you consider $22 an hour poverty wages? Beverly Hills? It certainly won't pay for a house with a swimming pool but there have been many years I'd have cheerfully committed...if not murder, than at least some serious crime for a pay rate that high.



I've been either unemployed or ridiculously underemployed for more than
a year and a half, largely because I have been trying to resist the downward spiral of wages. I have used up my
unemployment benefits and burned through all the savings I had. I've
turned down jobs at $25 and $27 an hour because they were on 1099 or
because I thought the nature and scope of the work justified higher
rates. I finally took a job at $27 an hour because the unemployment was running out, and that job is now over. My last month in that job they limited me to less than 20 hours a week because the project went over schedule and the money was drying up. In the last 20 months I've had exactly one possibility that
offered more than $29 an hour, and I couldn't get that because I've never used
XMetal. And you want me to stand firm and demand $40 an hour so I can
help the "industry" remain "competitive?" If the "industry" wants me to make it even harder on myself to find work for its sake, then the "industry" can back me up in a meaningful way or it can take a hike.



Who said anything about offering to work for free? Where did you get that?



I know all the cant about how our work adds value to the company and
its products. Tell it to the places where I've been getting turned down
for jobs. They don't listen to me when I try to tell them. And if the
documenting work is for internal use, they won't care about any spiel
related to customers.



Specialization. Concentrating on a few limited types of work? In a down
market? The number of companies that may have need for a tech writer is
down, all the companies remaining in those fields are much smaller than
they were, lots of them are still downsizing, there are many more
people looking for fewer jobs, and you think in these circumstances it
makes sense to limit the number of fields in which I look for work?
That's like in the middle of a famine you decide to eat only one type
of vegetable.

Maybe you can afford your definition of "competitive." I can't.

End of rant. Down off soapboax. Everybody on the list have fun and I wish you good luck. Good night.


--- On Mon, 10/25/10, Tony Chung <> wrote:

From: Tony Chung <>
Subject: Re: Rates
To: "TECHWR-L"
Date: Monday, October 25, 2010, 8:21 PM

Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
for the entire industry to remain competitive. Employers will ask why
bother hiring a contractor at $40-100/hour when they can hire
experienced people for $20/hour?

As professionals we need to communicate a value that transcends cost.
Quality technical writing mitigates risk, reduces customer support
calls, and improves customer satisfaction with the company overall.
You can't justify working for free or cheap in the light of what you
offer the company.

For those who are looking for work, when the going gets tough, the
tough specialize. Are there areas in which you could specialize?
Subject matter expertise, production speed, understanding of
collaborative writing, multi-channel deliverables, multi-sourcing,
social media, documentation through the development process, training
materials development, business analysis, content strategy and
migration, programming, hardware testing ... any of these increase
your core value beyond the generalist fresh out of college.

For $18 to 22/hour, I could score a sweet government job in the typing
pool. The higher wages are for greater responsibility, for instance,
accounting or materials management. As a programming technical writer
I feel that I should be able to increase profits for the compan(ies)
that hire me more than enough to accommodate my desired wage.

-Tony
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) Tony Chung wrote:

"Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
for the entire industry to remain competitive. Employers will ask why
bother hiring a contractor at $40-100/hour when they can hire
experienced people for $20/hour?"

While I understand Mr Chung's thought process, I do not agree with it.

The OP needs income to maintain his life -- many of us have been there. I would suggest that he (the OP) negotiate a better rate, taking into account all the expenses noted in the many posts in this thread. Doubling what he called the "hourly rate" would be a good ballpark in which to start.

While I think we all owe ourselves, our clients, and our profession the best work we can deliver, suggesting that we are responsible to each other for the maintenance of a specific compensation level is, in my opinion, mistaken.

John Rosberg
Documentation and Training

2765 Deerfield Road
Riverwoods, IL 60015
847-502-1833




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) I agree with both positions to a degree. I took a "lowball" contract
between full-time jobs, and while it kept the lights on, it also ate
into other opportunities I was able to land at about twice (if not
more) the rate. It actually hindered me from taking on some of these
more substantial gigs.

If you feel you need to take a lowball offer to stay solvent, then by
all means do so. But, through experience (mine and that of those I
know) I can say that taking a lower wage just to stay afloat may not
always be the best option, and can create problems over time. Rather
than scratch at what you can get, it may (also) be a good time to
start thinking about what you want.

On a side note, a friend of mine had a very good paying engineering
job that he absolutely hated. He decided to save as much as possible
once the hint of layoffs started floating through the office. When he
was laid off, he took time to figure out exactly what to do, living
off unemployment and savings. He decided to switch gears completely
and intern, for free, at a brewery. He is now about to go to the
Siebel Institute of Technology for a formal degree in brewing science
on the remainder of his savings, and has decided to downscale his life
accordingly until he's up and running as a paid brewer. And, he's
never been happier.

On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 9:09 AM, john rosberg <> wrote:
>
> Tony Chung wrote:
>
> "Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
> accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
> for the entire industry to remain competitive. Employers will ask why
> bother hiring a contractor at $40-100/hour when they can hire
> experienced people for $20/hour?"
>
> While I understand Mr Chung's thought process, I do not agree with it.
>
> The OP needs income to maintain his life -- many of us have been there. I would suggest that he (the OP) negotiate a better rate, taking into account all the expenses noted in the many posts in this thread. Doubling what he called the "hourly rate" would be a good ballpark in which to start.
>
> While I think we all owe ourselves, our clients, and our profession the best work we can deliver, suggesting that we are responsible to each other for the maintenance of a specific compensation level is, in my opinion, mistaken.

--
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Twitter: @techcommdood
Blog: http://techcommdood.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
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) On 10/26/10, Porrello, Leonard <> wrote:
> Well said, Tony.


I guess not well enough, based on the collective disagreement.

All I meant to say was that the choice to accept an offer lower than
ideal depends on several factors, and should not be restricted to
"because I need work." I would hope that there would be other benefits
to offset the money.

I can think of cases where my relationship with the cmpany, belief in
the product or service, or the opportunity to develop new skills
trumped the money. Deborah's comment that techwr-l articles were
written on a shoestring describe opportunities for writers to gain
personal and professional recognition for their knowledge.

I've heard it said it's better to be famous than rich. Famous people
always find work, but rich people could spend
themselves dry.

-Tony
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)

> I don't usually write like this, have been TWer long enough. Don't use this as my writing sample! These are the facts:
> I left a job.
> I was salary.
> Hourly rate calculated @ $22.
> Offered contract @ old job.
> Old job wants 13 hours a week.
> Hourly rate $22, same as salary hourly rate.

Nonononono.... Hourly rate >= 2x salary hourly rate. Otherwise when
tax time comes, or doctor visits are needed, you're screwed.

> Tax person said, "Save 50% of net pay for taxes."
> That would make it $11/hour.
> I don't want that.
> 11 x 13 = 143 net pay
> I want 50
> 25 x 13 =  325 net pay
> I will work 9-1130 PM Sun through Thur.
> I want the extra $ for extra things I want to buy and provide for my family.
> I get up every day @ 6 AM.
> That means 6-ish hours sleep.
> 53 hours/week
> I'm young enough, can handle that.

I'm a bit lost with the above but I think I catch your drift.

> What do I do?
> 1) Take 22 and make 143/week
> 2) Walk away
> 3) Counter with 44 so my actual take home is 286
>
> Do you think countering lower than 44 is worth it in this situation?

No. $22/hr is an insulting rate for a professional. Your salary
calculated hourly is not an accurate equal rate and your
employer/client likely knows this. Counter with $44 or MORE and if
questioned explain that everything that comes with a salary now needs
to be factored into an hourly contract rate to accommodate being taxed
as a self-employed person, to accommodate health insurance costs, and
to accommodate all the other costs that come with running a business,
since you are now your own employee.

> Questioning ...

Answering... Stand up for yourself and the value you deliver.

--
Bill Swallow

Twitter: @techcommdood
Blog: http://techcommdood.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
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) Sorry, but you don't go into business for yourself - voluntarily or
otherwise - to bend over backwards to make your prospective clients
happy. You strive to meet their needs within your constraints. If you
don't set standards for yourself, you'll never be taken seriously by
your clients.

On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 12:02 PM, Keith Hood <> wrote:
> I think the question about benefits and equivalence is not germane. The whole point for the company, in offering to hire him back on contract, is to get the same work at lower cost by removing the back-end costs like insurance premiums.  It would make no economic sense for them to hire him back at a rate that costs them as much as it would if he was salaried.
>
> I'd say agree to the 13 hours a week, because that allows you enough time to look for other contract jobs. Ask for a pay rate of $25 an hour and point out that since they're no longer paying for your health insurance and other overhead, they're still saving a lot of money even at the slightly higher pay rate.  If you ask for more than $25 an hour they'll probably just go find some kid right out of school and offer him $20.

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) Ultimately, every decision about rates hinges on how badly you need the job
and how badly the client needs you. The OP doesn't appear to be in survival
mode.

Gene Kim-Eng



On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 2:47 PM, Keith Hood <> wrote:

> I understand that, but unfortunately the market is nothing like what it was
> 5 years ago. For myself, since I don't have a huge nest egg to sit on while
> I look for good work, I'd treat the 13 hr/week job as a survival wage that
> pays for the food and gas while I look for something better. For people who
> have 28 degrees and certificates it may be OK to insist on high standards.
> For everybody else right now it is very definitely a bottom feeder's market.
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) Frankly, I don't see how it I can possibly not take your message
the wrong way, if the wrong way is to disagree with you.



JUST because I need work? My congratulations if you are so well off
that you think that which keeps me alive is a lesser concern than the "industry" remaining "competitive." I'm sorry if I'm betraying the "industry" by
being willing to accept lower wages than what I got 2 years ago because
I have this strange need to know that I can buy groceries next month.



No, I don't just need work. I need to stay alive. Work is JUST the thing that makes that possible.



Mine is the logic of living without a huge nest egg in a badly
deteriorated market where there are lots of competition for openings
and very few openings. As for whether or not I'm helping the "industry"
remaining "competitive," I'll let that be a concern when the
"industry" coughs up the rent money I won't have if I worry more about remaining "competitive" than I worry about getting a job. You want to
know a real definition of not remaining competitive? Being unable to
look for work because the internet access has been cut off for lack of
payment.



Where do you live that you consider $22 an hour poverty wages? Beverly Hills? It certainly won't pay for a house with a swimming pool but there have been many years I'd have cheerfully committed...if not murder, than at least some serious crime for a pay rate that high.



I've been either unemployed or ridiculously underemployed for more than
a year and a half, largely because I have been trying to resist the downward spiral of wages. I have used up my
unemployment benefits and burned through all the savings I had. I've
turned down jobs at $25 and $27 an hour because they were on 1099 or
because I thought the nature and scope of the work justified higher
rates. I finally took a job at $27 an hour because the unemployment was running out, and that job is now over. My last month in that job they limited me to less than 20 hours a week because the project went over schedule and the money was drying up. In the last 20 months I've had exactly one possibility that
offered more than $29 an hour, and I couldn't get that because I've never used
XMetal. And you want me to stand firm and demand $40 an hour so I can
help the "industry" remain "competitive?" If the "industry" wants me to make it even harder on myself to find work for its sake, then the "industry" can back me up in a meaningful way or it can take a hike.



Who said anything about offering to work for free? Where did you get that?



I know all the cant about how our work adds value to the company and
its products. Tell it to the places where I've been getting turned down
for jobs. They don't listen to me when I try to tell them. And if the
documenting work is for internal use, they won't care about any spiel
related to customers.



Specialization. Concentrating on a few limited types of work? In a down
market? The number of companies that may have need for a tech writer is
down, all the companies remaining in those fields are much smaller than
they were, lots of them are still downsizing, there are many more
people looking for fewer jobs, and you think in these circumstances it
makes sense to limit the number of fields in which I look for work?
That's like in the middle of a famine you decide to eat only one type
of vegetable.

Maybe you can afford your definition of "competitive." I can't.

End of rant. Down off soapboax. Everybody on the list have fun and I wish you good luck. Good night.


--- On Mon, 10/25/10, Tony Chung <> wrote:

From: Tony Chung <>
Subject: Re: Rates
To: "TECHWR-L"
Date: Monday, October 25, 2010, 8:21 PM

Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
for the entire industry to remain competitive. Employers will ask why
bother hiring a contractor at $40-100/hour when they can hire
experienced people for $20/hour?

As professionals we need to communicate a value that transcends cost.
Quality technical writing mitigates risk, reduces customer support
calls, and improves customer satisfaction with the company overall.
You can't justify working for free or cheap in the light of what you
offer the company.

For those who are looking for work, when the going gets tough, the
tough specialize. Are there areas in which you could specialize?
Subject matter expertise, production speed, understanding of
collaborative writing, multi-channel deliverables, multi-sourcing,
social media, documentation through the development process, training
materials development, business analysis, content strategy and
migration, programming, hardware testing ... any of these increase
your core value beyond the generalist fresh out of college.

For $18 to 22/hour, I could score a sweet government job in the typing
pool. The higher wages are for greater responsibility, for instance,
accounting or materials management. As a programming technical writer
I feel that I should be able to increase profits for the compan(ies)
that hire me more than enough to accommodate my desired wage.

-Tony
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) Tony Chung wrote:

"Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
for the entire industry to remain competitive. Employers will ask why
bother hiring a contractor at $40-100/hour when they can hire
experienced people for $20/hour?"

While I understand Mr Chung's thought process, I do not agree with it.

The OP needs income to maintain his life -- many of us have been there. I would suggest that he (the OP) negotiate a better rate, taking into account all the expenses noted in the many posts in this thread. Doubling what he called the "hourly rate" would be a good ballpark in which to start.

While I think we all owe ourselves, our clients, and our profession the best work we can deliver, suggesting that we are responsible to each other for the maintenance of a specific compensation level is, in my opinion, mistaken.

John Rosberg
Documentation and Training

2765 Deerfield Road
Riverwoods, IL 60015
847-502-1833




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) I agree with both positions to a degree. I took a "lowball" contract
between full-time jobs, and while it kept the lights on, it also ate
into other opportunities I was able to land at about twice (if not
more) the rate. It actually hindered me from taking on some of these
more substantial gigs.

If you feel you need to take a lowball offer to stay solvent, then by
all means do so. But, through experience (mine and that of those I
know) I can say that taking a lower wage just to stay afloat may not
always be the best option, and can create problems over time. Rather
than scratch at what you can get, it may (also) be a good time to
start thinking about what you want.

On a side note, a friend of mine had a very good paying engineering
job that he absolutely hated. He decided to save as much as possible
once the hint of layoffs started floating through the office. When he
was laid off, he took time to figure out exactly what to do, living
off unemployment and savings. He decided to switch gears completely
and intern, for free, at a brewery. He is now about to go to the
Siebel Institute of Technology for a formal degree in brewing science
on the remainder of his savings, and has decided to downscale his life
accordingly until he's up and running as a paid brewer. And, he's
never been happier.

On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 9:09 AM, john rosberg <> wrote:
>
> Tony Chung wrote:
>
> "Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
> accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
> for the entire industry to remain competitive. Employers will ask why
> bother hiring a contractor at $40-100/hour when they can hire
> experienced people for $20/hour?"
>
> While I understand Mr Chung's thought process, I do not agree with it.
>
> The OP needs income to maintain his life -- many of us have been there. I would suggest that he (the OP) negotiate a better rate, taking into account all the expenses noted in the many posts in this thread. Doubling what he called the "hourly rate" would be a good ballpark in which to start.
>
> While I think we all owe ourselves, our clients, and our profession the best work we can deliver, suggesting that we are responsible to each other for the maintenance of a specific compensation level is, in my opinion, mistaken.

--
Bill Swallow

Twitter: @techcommdood
Blog: http://techcommdood.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
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) On 10/26/10, Porrello, Leonard <> wrote:
> Well said, Tony.


I guess not well enough, based on the collective disagreement.

All I meant to say was that the choice to accept an offer lower than
ideal depends on several factors, and should not be restricted to
"because I need work." I would hope that there would be other benefits
to offset the money.

I can think of cases where my relationship with the cmpany, belief in
the product or service, or the opportunity to develop new skills
trumped the money. Deborah's comment that techwr-l articles were
written on a shoestring describe opportunities for writers to gain
personal and professional recognition for their knowledge.

I've heard it said it's better to be famous than rich. Famous people
always find work, but rich people could spend
themselves dry.

-Tony
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) I don't see tech writers with gainful employment falling all over themselves
to contribute to a fund to help feed, house, clothe and pay doctor bills for
tech writers and their families if they altruistically choose to turn down
underemployment in hard times to serve the interests of "the entire
industry." In the absence of some equivalent of a union strike fund, people
need to make sure their own oxygen masks are in place before attempting to
assist others.

Gene Kim-Eng



On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Tony Chung <> wrote:

> Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
> accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
> for the entire industry to remain competitive.
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)

> I don't usually write like this, have been TWer long enough. Don't use this as my writing sample! These are the facts:
> I left a job.
> I was salary.
> Hourly rate calculated @ $22.
> Offered contract @ old job.
> Old job wants 13 hours a week.
> Hourly rate $22, same as salary hourly rate.

Nonononono.... Hourly rate >= 2x salary hourly rate. Otherwise when
tax time comes, or doctor visits are needed, you're screwed.

> Tax person said, "Save 50% of net pay for taxes."
> That would make it $11/hour.
> I don't want that.
> 11 x 13 = 143 net pay
> I want 50
> 25 x 13 =  325 net pay
> I will work 9-1130 PM Sun through Thur.
> I want the extra $ for extra things I want to buy and provide for my family.
> I get up every day @ 6 AM.
> That means 6-ish hours sleep.
> 53 hours/week
> I'm young enough, can handle that.

I'm a bit lost with the above but I think I catch your drift.

> What do I do?
> 1) Take 22 and make 143/week
> 2) Walk away
> 3) Counter with 44 so my actual take home is 286
>
> Do you think countering lower than 44 is worth it in this situation?

No. $22/hr is an insulting rate for a professional. Your salary
calculated hourly is not an accurate equal rate and your
employer/client likely knows this. Counter with $44 or MORE and if
questioned explain that everything that comes with a salary now needs
to be factored into an hourly contract rate to accommodate being taxed
as a self-employed person, to accommodate health insurance costs, and
to accommodate all the other costs that come with running a business,
since you are now your own employee.

> Questioning ...

Answering... Stand up for yourself and the value you deliver.

--
Bill Swallow

Twitter: @techcommdood
Blog: http://techcommdood.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
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) Sorry, but you don't go into business for yourself - voluntarily or
otherwise - to bend over backwards to make your prospective clients
happy. You strive to meet their needs within your constraints. If you
don't set standards for yourself, you'll never be taken seriously by
your clients.

On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 12:02 PM, Keith Hood <> wrote:
> I think the question about benefits and equivalence is not germane. The whole point for the company, in offering to hire him back on contract, is to get the same work at lower cost by removing the back-end costs like insurance premiums.  It would make no economic sense for them to hire him back at a rate that costs them as much as it would if he was salaried.
>
> I'd say agree to the 13 hours a week, because that allows you enough time to look for other contract jobs. Ask for a pay rate of $25 an hour and point out that since they're no longer paying for your health insurance and other overhead, they're still saving a lot of money even at the slightly higher pay rate.  If you ask for more than $25 an hour they'll probably just go find some kid right out of school and offer him $20.

--
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Twitter: @techcommdood
Blog: http://techcommdood.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
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) Ultimately, every decision about rates hinges on how badly you need the job
and how badly the client needs you. The OP doesn't appear to be in survival
mode.

Gene Kim-Eng



On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 2:47 PM, Keith Hood <> wrote:

> I understand that, but unfortunately the market is nothing like what it was
> 5 years ago. For myself, since I don't have a huge nest egg to sit on while
> I look for good work, I'd treat the 13 hr/week job as a survival wage that
> pays for the food and gas while I look for something better. For people who
> have 28 degrees and certificates it may be OK to insist on high standards.
> For everybody else right now it is very definitely a bottom feeder's market.
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) Frankly, I don't see how it I can possibly not take your message
the wrong way, if the wrong way is to disagree with you.



JUST because I need work? My congratulations if you are so well off
that you think that which keeps me alive is a lesser concern than the "industry" remaining "competitive." I'm sorry if I'm betraying the "industry" by
being willing to accept lower wages than what I got 2 years ago because
I have this strange need to know that I can buy groceries next month.



No, I don't just need work. I need to stay alive. Work is JUST the thing that makes that possible.



Mine is the logic of living without a huge nest egg in a badly
deteriorated market where there are lots of competition for openings
and very few openings. As for whether or not I'm helping the "industry"
remaining "competitive," I'll let that be a concern when the
"industry" coughs up the rent money I won't have if I worry more about remaining "competitive" than I worry about getting a job. You want to
know a real definition of not remaining competitive? Being unable to
look for work because the internet access has been cut off for lack of
payment.



Where do you live that you consider $22 an hour poverty wages? Beverly Hills? It certainly won't pay for a house with a swimming pool but there have been many years I'd have cheerfully committed...if not murder, than at least some serious crime for a pay rate that high.



I've been either unemployed or ridiculously underemployed for more than
a year and a half, largely because I have been trying to resist the downward spiral of wages. I have used up my
unemployment benefits and burned through all the savings I had. I've
turned down jobs at $25 and $27 an hour because they were on 1099 or
because I thought the nature and scope of the work justified higher
rates. I finally took a job at $27 an hour because the unemployment was running out, and that job is now over. My last month in that job they limited me to less than 20 hours a week because the project went over schedule and the money was drying up. In the last 20 months I've had exactly one possibility that
offered more than $29 an hour, and I couldn't get that because I've never used
XMetal. And you want me to stand firm and demand $40 an hour so I can
help the "industry" remain "competitive?" If the "industry" wants me to make it even harder on myself to find work for its sake, then the "industry" can back me up in a meaningful way or it can take a hike.



Who said anything about offering to work for free? Where did you get that?



I know all the cant about how our work adds value to the company and
its products. Tell it to the places where I've been getting turned down
for jobs. They don't listen to me when I try to tell them. And if the
documenting work is for internal use, they won't care about any spiel
related to customers.



Specialization. Concentrating on a few limited types of work? In a down
market? The number of companies that may have need for a tech writer is
down, all the companies remaining in those fields are much smaller than
they were, lots of them are still downsizing, there are many more
people looking for fewer jobs, and you think in these circumstances it
makes sense to limit the number of fields in which I look for work?
That's like in the middle of a famine you decide to eat only one type
of vegetable.

Maybe you can afford your definition of "competitive." I can't.

End of rant. Down off soapboax. Everybody on the list have fun and I wish you good luck. Good night.


--- On Mon, 10/25/10, Tony Chung <> wrote:

From: Tony Chung <>
Subject: Re: Rates
To: "TECHWR-L"
Date: Monday, October 25, 2010, 8:21 PM

Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
for the entire industry to remain competitive. Employers will ask why
bother hiring a contractor at $40-100/hour when they can hire
experienced people for $20/hour?

As professionals we need to communicate a value that transcends cost.
Quality technical writing mitigates risk, reduces customer support
calls, and improves customer satisfaction with the company overall.
You can't justify working for free or cheap in the light of what you
offer the company.

For those who are looking for work, when the going gets tough, the
tough specialize. Are there areas in which you could specialize?
Subject matter expertise, production speed, understanding of
collaborative writing, multi-channel deliverables, multi-sourcing,
social media, documentation through the development process, training
materials development, business analysis, content strategy and
migration, programming, hardware testing ... any of these increase
your core value beyond the generalist fresh out of college.

For $18 to 22/hour, I could score a sweet government job in the typing
pool. The higher wages are for greater responsibility, for instance,
accounting or materials management. As a programming technical writer
I feel that I should be able to increase profits for the compan(ies)
that hire me more than enough to accommodate my desired wage.

-Tony
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) Tony Chung wrote:

"Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
for the entire industry to remain competitive. Employers will ask why
bother hiring a contractor at $40-100/hour when they can hire
experienced people for $20/hour?"

While I understand Mr Chung's thought process, I do not agree with it.

The OP needs income to maintain his life -- many of us have been there. I would suggest that he (the OP) negotiate a better rate, taking into account all the expenses noted in the many posts in this thread. Doubling what he called the "hourly rate" would be a good ballpark in which to start.

While I think we all owe ourselves, our clients, and our profession the best work we can deliver, suggesting that we are responsible to each other for the maintenance of a specific compensation level is, in my opinion, mistaken.

John Rosberg
Documentation and Training

2765 Deerfield Road
Riverwoods, IL 60015
847-502-1833




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) I agree with both positions to a degree. I took a "lowball" contract
between full-time jobs, and while it kept the lights on, it also ate
into other opportunities I was able to land at about twice (if not
more) the rate. It actually hindered me from taking on some of these
more substantial gigs.

If you feel you need to take a lowball offer to stay solvent, then by
all means do so. But, through experience (mine and that of those I
know) I can say that taking a lower wage just to stay afloat may not
always be the best option, and can create problems over time. Rather
than scratch at what you can get, it may (also) be a good time to
start thinking about what you want.

On a side note, a friend of mine had a very good paying engineering
job that he absolutely hated. He decided to save as much as possible
once the hint of layoffs started floating through the office. When he
was laid off, he took time to figure out exactly what to do, living
off unemployment and savings. He decided to switch gears completely
and intern, for free, at a brewery. He is now about to go to the
Siebel Institute of Technology for a formal degree in brewing science
on the remainder of his savings, and has decided to downscale his life
accordingly until he's up and running as a paid brewer. And, he's
never been happier.

On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 9:09 AM, john rosberg <> wrote:
>
> Tony Chung wrote:
>
> "Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
> accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
> for the entire industry to remain competitive. Employers will ask why
> bother hiring a contractor at $40-100/hour when they can hire
> experienced people for $20/hour?"
>
> While I understand Mr Chung's thought process, I do not agree with it.
>
> The OP needs income to maintain his life -- many of us have been there. I would suggest that he (the OP) negotiate a better rate, taking into account all the expenses noted in the many posts in this thread. Doubling what he called the "hourly rate" would be a good ballpark in which to start.
>
> While I think we all owe ourselves, our clients, and our profession the best work we can deliver, suggesting that we are responsible to each other for the maintenance of a specific compensation level is, in my opinion, mistaken.

--
Bill Swallow

Twitter: @techcommdood
Blog: http://techcommdood.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
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) On 10/26/10, Porrello, Leonard <> wrote:
> Well said, Tony.


I guess not well enough, based on the collective disagreement.

All I meant to say was that the choice to accept an offer lower than
ideal depends on several factors, and should not be restricted to
"because I need work." I would hope that there would be other benefits
to offset the money.

I can think of cases where my relationship with the cmpany, belief in
the product or service, or the opportunity to develop new skills
trumped the money. Deborah's comment that techwr-l articles were
written on a shoestring describe opportunities for writers to gain
personal and professional recognition for their knowledge.

I've heard it said it's better to be famous than rich. Famous people
always find work, but rich people could spend
themselves dry.

-Tony
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) I don't see tech writers with gainful employment falling all over themselves
to contribute to a fund to help feed, house, clothe and pay doctor bills for
tech writers and their families if they altruistically choose to turn down
underemployment in hard times to serve the interests of "the entire
industry." In the absence of some equivalent of a union strike fund, people
need to make sure their own oxygen masks are in place before attempting to
assist others.

Gene Kim-Eng



On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Tony Chung <> wrote:

> Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
> accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
> for the entire industry to remain competitive.
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) I began work tonight at the 50/hour rate. Sent the electronically signed contract back. Thank you to all that provided advice and ideas re: how to proceed. Much appreciated.

One last thought before returning to lurk mode until I can offer advice that helps someone else as much as you all have helped me:
I was working on a revision to a manual at my new job. In one paragraph, there'd be two spaces after a period. In another place, I saw one. I asked my co-worker "one space or two after a period?" Reply: "One unless it looks funny, then use two."

ANON_TWER
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)

> I don't usually write like this, have been TWer long enough. Don't use this as my writing sample! These are the facts:
> I left a job.
> I was salary.
> Hourly rate calculated @ $22.
> Offered contract @ old job.
> Old job wants 13 hours a week.
> Hourly rate $22, same as salary hourly rate.

Nonononono.... Hourly rate >= 2x salary hourly rate. Otherwise when
tax time comes, or doctor visits are needed, you're screwed.

> Tax person said, "Save 50% of net pay for taxes."
> That would make it $11/hour.
> I don't want that.
> 11 x 13 = 143 net pay
> I want 50
> 25 x 13 =  325 net pay
> I will work 9-1130 PM Sun through Thur.
> I want the extra $ for extra things I want to buy and provide for my family.
> I get up every day @ 6 AM.
> That means 6-ish hours sleep.
> 53 hours/week
> I'm young enough, can handle that.

I'm a bit lost with the above but I think I catch your drift.

> What do I do?
> 1) Take 22 and make 143/week
> 2) Walk away
> 3) Counter with 44 so my actual take home is 286
>
> Do you think countering lower than 44 is worth it in this situation?

No. $22/hr is an insulting rate for a professional. Your salary
calculated hourly is not an accurate equal rate and your
employer/client likely knows this. Counter with $44 or MORE and if
questioned explain that everything that comes with a salary now needs
to be factored into an hourly contract rate to accommodate being taxed
as a self-employed person, to accommodate health insurance costs, and
to accommodate all the other costs that come with running a business,
since you are now your own employee.

> Questioning ...

Answering... Stand up for yourself and the value you deliver.

--
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) Sorry, but you don't go into business for yourself - voluntarily or
otherwise - to bend over backwards to make your prospective clients
happy. You strive to meet their needs within your constraints. If you
don't set standards for yourself, you'll never be taken seriously by
your clients.

On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 12:02 PM, Keith Hood <> wrote:
> I think the question about benefits and equivalence is not germane. The whole point for the company, in offering to hire him back on contract, is to get the same work at lower cost by removing the back-end costs like insurance premiums.  It would make no economic sense for them to hire him back at a rate that costs them as much as it would if he was salaried.
>
> I'd say agree to the 13 hours a week, because that allows you enough time to look for other contract jobs. Ask for a pay rate of $25 an hour and point out that since they're no longer paying for your health insurance and other overhead, they're still saving a lot of money even at the slightly higher pay rate.  If you ask for more than $25 an hour they'll probably just go find some kid right out of school and offer him $20.

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) Ultimately, every decision about rates hinges on how badly you need the job
and how badly the client needs you. The OP doesn't appear to be in survival
mode.

Gene Kim-Eng



On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 2:47 PM, Keith Hood <> wrote:

> I understand that, but unfortunately the market is nothing like what it was
> 5 years ago. For myself, since I don't have a huge nest egg to sit on while
> I look for good work, I'd treat the 13 hr/week job as a survival wage that
> pays for the food and gas while I look for something better. For people who
> have 28 degrees and certificates it may be OK to insist on high standards.
> For everybody else right now it is very definitely a bottom feeder's market.
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) Frankly, I don't see how it I can possibly not take your message
the wrong way, if the wrong way is to disagree with you.



JUST because I need work? My congratulations if you are so well off
that you think that which keeps me alive is a lesser concern than the "industry" remaining "competitive." I'm sorry if I'm betraying the "industry" by
being willing to accept lower wages than what I got 2 years ago because
I have this strange need to know that I can buy groceries next month.



No, I don't just need work. I need to stay alive. Work is JUST the thing that makes that possible.



Mine is the logic of living without a huge nest egg in a badly
deteriorated market where there are lots of competition for openings
and very few openings. As for whether or not I'm helping the "industry"
remaining "competitive," I'll let that be a concern when the
"industry" coughs up the rent money I won't have if I worry more about remaining "competitive" than I worry about getting a job. You want to
know a real definition of not remaining competitive? Being unable to
look for work because the internet access has been cut off for lack of
payment.



Where do you live that you consider $22 an hour poverty wages? Beverly Hills? It certainly won't pay for a house with a swimming pool but there have been many years I'd have cheerfully committed...if not murder, than at least some serious crime for a pay rate that high.



I've been either unemployed or ridiculously underemployed for more than
a year and a half, largely because I have been trying to resist the downward spiral of wages. I have used up my
unemployment benefits and burned through all the savings I had. I've
turned down jobs at $25 and $27 an hour because they were on 1099 or
because I thought the nature and scope of the work justified higher
rates. I finally took a job at $27 an hour because the unemployment was running out, and that job is now over. My last month in that job they limited me to less than 20 hours a week because the project went over schedule and the money was drying up. In the last 20 months I've had exactly one possibility that
offered more than $29 an hour, and I couldn't get that because I've never used
XMetal. And you want me to stand firm and demand $40 an hour so I can
help the "industry" remain "competitive?" If the "industry" wants me to make it even harder on myself to find work for its sake, then the "industry" can back me up in a meaningful way or it can take a hike.



Who said anything about offering to work for free? Where did you get that?



I know all the cant about how our work adds value to the company and
its products. Tell it to the places where I've been getting turned down
for jobs. They don't listen to me when I try to tell them. And if the
documenting work is for internal use, they won't care about any spiel
related to customers.



Specialization. Concentrating on a few limited types of work? In a down
market? The number of companies that may have need for a tech writer is
down, all the companies remaining in those fields are much smaller than
they were, lots of them are still downsizing, there are many more
people looking for fewer jobs, and you think in these circumstances it
makes sense to limit the number of fields in which I look for work?
That's like in the middle of a famine you decide to eat only one type
of vegetable.

Maybe you can afford your definition of "competitive." I can't.

End of rant. Down off soapboax. Everybody on the list have fun and I wish you good luck. Good night.


--- On Mon, 10/25/10, Tony Chung <> wrote:

From: Tony Chung <>
Subject: Re: Rates
To: "TECHWR-L"
Date: Monday, October 25, 2010, 8:21 PM

Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
for the entire industry to remain competitive. Employers will ask why
bother hiring a contractor at $40-100/hour when they can hire
experienced people for $20/hour?

As professionals we need to communicate a value that transcends cost.
Quality technical writing mitigates risk, reduces customer support
calls, and improves customer satisfaction with the company overall.
You can't justify working for free or cheap in the light of what you
offer the company.

For those who are looking for work, when the going gets tough, the
tough specialize. Are there areas in which you could specialize?
Subject matter expertise, production speed, understanding of
collaborative writing, multi-channel deliverables, multi-sourcing,
social media, documentation through the development process, training
materials development, business analysis, content strategy and
migration, programming, hardware testing ... any of these increase
your core value beyond the generalist fresh out of college.

For $18 to 22/hour, I could score a sweet government job in the typing
pool. The higher wages are for greater responsibility, for instance,
accounting or materials management. As a programming technical writer
I feel that I should be able to increase profits for the compan(ies)
that hire me more than enough to accommodate my desired wage.

-Tony
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) Tony Chung wrote:

"Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
for the entire industry to remain competitive. Employers will ask why
bother hiring a contractor at $40-100/hour when they can hire
experienced people for $20/hour?"

While I understand Mr Chung's thought process, I do not agree with it.

The OP needs income to maintain his life -- many of us have been there. I would suggest that he (the OP) negotiate a better rate, taking into account all the expenses noted in the many posts in this thread. Doubling what he called the "hourly rate" would be a good ballpark in which to start.

While I think we all owe ourselves, our clients, and our profession the best work we can deliver, suggesting that we are responsible to each other for the maintenance of a specific compensation level is, in my opinion, mistaken.

John Rosberg
Documentation and Training

2765 Deerfield Road
Riverwoods, IL 60015
847-502-1833




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) I agree with both positions to a degree. I took a "lowball" contract
between full-time jobs, and while it kept the lights on, it also ate
into other opportunities I was able to land at about twice (if not
more) the rate. It actually hindered me from taking on some of these
more substantial gigs.

If you feel you need to take a lowball offer to stay solvent, then by
all means do so. But, through experience (mine and that of those I
know) I can say that taking a lower wage just to stay afloat may not
always be the best option, and can create problems over time. Rather
than scratch at what you can get, it may (also) be a good time to
start thinking about what you want.

On a side note, a friend of mine had a very good paying engineering
job that he absolutely hated. He decided to save as much as possible
once the hint of layoffs started floating through the office. When he
was laid off, he took time to figure out exactly what to do, living
off unemployment and savings. He decided to switch gears completely
and intern, for free, at a brewery. He is now about to go to the
Siebel Institute of Technology for a formal degree in brewing science
on the remainder of his savings, and has decided to downscale his life
accordingly until he's up and running as a paid brewer. And, he's
never been happier.

On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 9:09 AM, john rosberg <> wrote:
>
> Tony Chung wrote:
>
> "Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
> accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
> for the entire industry to remain competitive. Employers will ask why
> bother hiring a contractor at $40-100/hour when they can hire
> experienced people for $20/hour?"
>
> While I understand Mr Chung's thought process, I do not agree with it.
>
> The OP needs income to maintain his life -- many of us have been there. I would suggest that he (the OP) negotiate a better rate, taking into account all the expenses noted in the many posts in this thread. Doubling what he called the "hourly rate" would be a good ballpark in which to start.
>
> While I think we all owe ourselves, our clients, and our profession the best work we can deliver, suggesting that we are responsible to each other for the maintenance of a specific compensation level is, in my opinion, mistaken.

--
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Twitter: @techcommdood
Blog: http://techcommdood.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
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) On 10/26/10, Porrello, Leonard <> wrote:
> Well said, Tony.


I guess not well enough, based on the collective disagreement.

All I meant to say was that the choice to accept an offer lower than
ideal depends on several factors, and should not be restricted to
"because I need work." I would hope that there would be other benefits
to offset the money.

I can think of cases where my relationship with the cmpany, belief in
the product or service, or the opportunity to develop new skills
trumped the money. Deborah's comment that techwr-l articles were
written on a shoestring describe opportunities for writers to gain
personal and professional recognition for their knowledge.

I've heard it said it's better to be famous than rich. Famous people
always find work, but rich people could spend
themselves dry.

-Tony
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) I don't see tech writers with gainful employment falling all over themselves
to contribute to a fund to help feed, house, clothe and pay doctor bills for
tech writers and their families if they altruistically choose to turn down
underemployment in hard times to serve the interests of "the entire
industry." In the absence of some equivalent of a union strike fund, people
need to make sure their own oxygen masks are in place before attempting to
assist others.

Gene Kim-Eng



On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Tony Chung <> wrote:

> Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
> accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
> for the entire industry to remain competitive.
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) I began work tonight at the 50/hour rate. Sent the electronically signed contract back. Thank you to all that provided advice and ideas re: how to proceed. Much appreciated.

One last thought before returning to lurk mode until I can offer advice that helps someone else as much as you all have helped me:
I was working on a revision to a manual at my new job. In one paragraph, there'd be two spaces after a period. In another place, I saw one. I asked my co-worker "one space or two after a period?" Reply: "One unless it looks funny, then use two."

ANON_TWER
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) > It would be a pretty poor rate in most CA urban areas.  But $22/hr works out to
> a little under $46,000, which just happens to be the average income for college
> graduates in the US (the average salary for tech writers nationwide is $52,000).

True, but that does assume full 40 hour weeks for 52 consecutive
weeks, which is doable (if they allow working through holidays or pay
for holidays despite you not being an employee), and does not account
for being in a different tax situation.

> If the OP has already left that $22/hr job (presumably for one that is better)
> and is contemplating doing this work for a couple of hours an evening, we're
> probably not talking about crawling into aircraft fuselages or documenting heavy
> equipment teardowns, and chasing down SMEs to drag knowlege out of their heads
> between 9:00 and 11:30 doesn't sound terribly practical either.  So ultimately
> the question remains how badly the extra money is needed and what the
> effort-to-money ratio is.  Even in CA, if someone wanted me to do some redline
> entry and editing/formatting a couple of hours a night for this rate 1099 and I
> didn't have anything better to do with my time I might just think about
> countering at $35/hr and see what happens.

The conversation (countering/bargaining) is worth having. Not
demanding, but talking it out.

I just re-read the original post, which was quite cryptic. The OP is
talking about this as a side gig, which would add 13 hours (an odd
figure) per week. At $22, that's an extra $286/week before any taxes
augmenting a full week's worth of salary from another job (40, perhaps
more, hours per week). Thus the 53 hour remark.

I think the tax advisor is over-estimating with the 50% savings for
taxes, but it's good to be cautious and pad the reserve. Still, given
having a full time job, you have to weigh your loss of 13 hours of
free time per week (about a full waking day of free time, more or
less) and decide if it's worth an extra $143 per week. Personally I'd
be hesitant to go for that ($11/hr net for each hour of my free time
given an existing full time job taking up 40 hours or more per week),
but if your situation calls for additional income, it might be worth
it to you.

--
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Twitter: @techcommdood
Blog: http://techcommdood.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
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)

> I don't usually write like this, have been TWer long enough. Don't use this as my writing sample! These are the facts:
> I left a job.
> I was salary.
> Hourly rate calculated @ $22.
> Offered contract @ old job.
> Old job wants 13 hours a week.
> Hourly rate $22, same as salary hourly rate.

Nonononono.... Hourly rate >= 2x salary hourly rate. Otherwise when
tax time comes, or doctor visits are needed, you're screwed.

> Tax person said, "Save 50% of net pay for taxes."
> That would make it $11/hour.
> I don't want that.
> 11 x 13 = 143 net pay
> I want 50
> 25 x 13 =  325 net pay
> I will work 9-1130 PM Sun through Thur.
> I want the extra $ for extra things I want to buy and provide for my family.
> I get up every day @ 6 AM.
> That means 6-ish hours sleep.
> 53 hours/week
> I'm young enough, can handle that.

I'm a bit lost with the above but I think I catch your drift.

> What do I do?
> 1) Take 22 and make 143/week
> 2) Walk away
> 3) Counter with 44 so my actual take home is 286
>
> Do you think countering lower than 44 is worth it in this situation?

No. $22/hr is an insulting rate for a professional. Your salary
calculated hourly is not an accurate equal rate and your
employer/client likely knows this. Counter with $44 or MORE and if
questioned explain that everything that comes with a salary now needs
to be factored into an hourly contract rate to accommodate being taxed
as a self-employed person, to accommodate health insurance costs, and
to accommodate all the other costs that come with running a business,
since you are now your own employee.

> Questioning ...

Answering... Stand up for yourself and the value you deliver.

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) Sorry, but you don't go into business for yourself - voluntarily or
otherwise - to bend over backwards to make your prospective clients
happy. You strive to meet their needs within your constraints. If you
don't set standards for yourself, you'll never be taken seriously by
your clients.

On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 12:02 PM, Keith Hood <> wrote:
> I think the question about benefits and equivalence is not germane. The whole point for the company, in offering to hire him back on contract, is to get the same work at lower cost by removing the back-end costs like insurance premiums.  It would make no economic sense for them to hire him back at a rate that costs them as much as it would if he was salaried.
>
> I'd say agree to the 13 hours a week, because that allows you enough time to look for other contract jobs. Ask for a pay rate of $25 an hour and point out that since they're no longer paying for your health insurance and other overhead, they're still saving a lot of money even at the slightly higher pay rate.  If you ask for more than $25 an hour they'll probably just go find some kid right out of school and offer him $20.

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) Ultimately, every decision about rates hinges on how badly you need the job
and how badly the client needs you. The OP doesn't appear to be in survival
mode.

Gene Kim-Eng



On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 2:47 PM, Keith Hood <> wrote:

> I understand that, but unfortunately the market is nothing like what it was
> 5 years ago. For myself, since I don't have a huge nest egg to sit on while
> I look for good work, I'd treat the 13 hr/week job as a survival wage that
> pays for the food and gas while I look for something better. For people who
> have 28 degrees and certificates it may be OK to insist on high standards.
> For everybody else right now it is very definitely a bottom feeder's market.
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) Frankly, I don't see how it I can possibly not take your message
the wrong way, if the wrong way is to disagree with you.



JUST because I need work? My congratulations if you are so well off
that you think that which keeps me alive is a lesser concern than the "industry" remaining "competitive." I'm sorry if I'm betraying the "industry" by
being willing to accept lower wages than what I got 2 years ago because
I have this strange need to know that I can buy groceries next month.



No, I don't just need work. I need to stay alive. Work is JUST the thing that makes that possible.



Mine is the logic of living without a huge nest egg in a badly
deteriorated market where there are lots of competition for openings
and very few openings. As for whether or not I'm helping the "industry"
remaining "competitive," I'll let that be a concern when the
"industry" coughs up the rent money I won't have if I worry more about remaining "competitive" than I worry about getting a job. You want to
know a real definition of not remaining competitive? Being unable to
look for work because the internet access has been cut off for lack of
payment.



Where do you live that you consider $22 an hour poverty wages? Beverly Hills? It certainly won't pay for a house with a swimming pool but there have been many years I'd have cheerfully committed...if not murder, than at least some serious crime for a pay rate that high.



I've been either unemployed or ridiculously underemployed for more than
a year and a half, largely because I have been trying to resist the downward spiral of wages. I have used up my
unemployment benefits and burned through all the savings I had. I've
turned down jobs at $25 and $27 an hour because they were on 1099 or
because I thought the nature and scope of the work justified higher
rates. I finally took a job at $27 an hour because the unemployment was running out, and that job is now over. My last month in that job they limited me to less than 20 hours a week because the project went over schedule and the money was drying up. In the last 20 months I've had exactly one possibility that
offered more than $29 an hour, and I couldn't get that because I've never used
XMetal. And you want me to stand firm and demand $40 an hour so I can
help the "industry" remain "competitive?" If the "industry" wants me to make it even harder on myself to find work for its sake, then the "industry" can back me up in a meaningful way or it can take a hike.



Who said anything about offering to work for free? Where did you get that?



I know all the cant about how our work adds value to the company and
its products. Tell it to the places where I've been getting turned down
for jobs. They don't listen to me when I try to tell them. And if the
documenting work is for internal use, they won't care about any spiel
related to customers.



Specialization. Concentrating on a few limited types of work? In a down
market? The number of companies that may have need for a tech writer is
down, all the companies remaining in those fields are much smaller than
they were, lots of them are still downsizing, there are many more
people looking for fewer jobs, and you think in these circumstances it
makes sense to limit the number of fields in which I look for work?
That's like in the middle of a famine you decide to eat only one type
of vegetable.

Maybe you can afford your definition of "competitive." I can't.

End of rant. Down off soapboax. Everybody on the list have fun and I wish you good luck. Good night.


--- On Mon, 10/25/10, Tony Chung <> wrote:

From: Tony Chung <>
Subject: Re: Rates
To: "TECHWR-L"
Date: Monday, October 25, 2010, 8:21 PM

Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
for the entire industry to remain competitive. Employers will ask why
bother hiring a contractor at $40-100/hour when they can hire
experienced people for $20/hour?

As professionals we need to communicate a value that transcends cost.
Quality technical writing mitigates risk, reduces customer support
calls, and improves customer satisfaction with the company overall.
You can't justify working for free or cheap in the light of what you
offer the company.

For those who are looking for work, when the going gets tough, the
tough specialize. Are there areas in which you could specialize?
Subject matter expertise, production speed, understanding of
collaborative writing, multi-channel deliverables, multi-sourcing,
social media, documentation through the development process, training
materials development, business analysis, content strategy and
migration, programming, hardware testing ... any of these increase
your core value beyond the generalist fresh out of college.

For $18 to 22/hour, I could score a sweet government job in the typing
pool. The higher wages are for greater responsibility, for instance,
accounting or materials management. As a programming technical writer
I feel that I should be able to increase profits for the compan(ies)
that hire me more than enough to accommodate my desired wage.

-Tony
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) Tony Chung wrote:

"Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
for the entire industry to remain competitive. Employers will ask why
bother hiring a contractor at $40-100/hour when they can hire
experienced people for $20/hour?"

While I understand Mr Chung's thought process, I do not agree with it.

The OP needs income to maintain his life -- many of us have been there. I would suggest that he (the OP) negotiate a better rate, taking into account all the expenses noted in the many posts in this thread. Doubling what he called the "hourly rate" would be a good ballpark in which to start.

While I think we all owe ourselves, our clients, and our profession the best work we can deliver, suggesting that we are responsible to each other for the maintenance of a specific compensation level is, in my opinion, mistaken.

John Rosberg
Documentation and Training

2765 Deerfield Road
Riverwoods, IL 60015
847-502-1833




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) I agree with both positions to a degree. I took a "lowball" contract
between full-time jobs, and while it kept the lights on, it also ate
into other opportunities I was able to land at about twice (if not
more) the rate. It actually hindered me from taking on some of these
more substantial gigs.

If you feel you need to take a lowball offer to stay solvent, then by
all means do so. But, through experience (mine and that of those I
know) I can say that taking a lower wage just to stay afloat may not
always be the best option, and can create problems over time. Rather
than scratch at what you can get, it may (also) be a good time to
start thinking about what you want.

On a side note, a friend of mine had a very good paying engineering
job that he absolutely hated. He decided to save as much as possible
once the hint of layoffs started floating through the office. When he
was laid off, he took time to figure out exactly what to do, living
off unemployment and savings. He decided to switch gears completely
and intern, for free, at a brewery. He is now about to go to the
Siebel Institute of Technology for a formal degree in brewing science
on the remainder of his savings, and has decided to downscale his life
accordingly until he's up and running as a paid brewer. And, he's
never been happier.

On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 9:09 AM, john rosberg <> wrote:
>
> Tony Chung wrote:
>
> "Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
> accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
> for the entire industry to remain competitive. Employers will ask why
> bother hiring a contractor at $40-100/hour when they can hire
> experienced people for $20/hour?"
>
> While I understand Mr Chung's thought process, I do not agree with it.
>
> The OP needs income to maintain his life -- many of us have been there. I would suggest that he (the OP) negotiate a better rate, taking into account all the expenses noted in the many posts in this thread. Doubling what he called the "hourly rate" would be a good ballpark in which to start.
>
> While I think we all owe ourselves, our clients, and our profession the best work we can deliver, suggesting that we are responsible to each other for the maintenance of a specific compensation level is, in my opinion, mistaken.

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) On 10/26/10, Porrello, Leonard <> wrote:
> Well said, Tony.


I guess not well enough, based on the collective disagreement.

All I meant to say was that the choice to accept an offer lower than
ideal depends on several factors, and should not be restricted to
"because I need work." I would hope that there would be other benefits
to offset the money.

I can think of cases where my relationship with the cmpany, belief in
the product or service, or the opportunity to develop new skills
trumped the money. Deborah's comment that techwr-l articles were
written on a shoestring describe opportunities for writers to gain
personal and professional recognition for their knowledge.

I've heard it said it's better to be famous than rich. Famous people
always find work, but rich people could spend
themselves dry.

-Tony
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) I don't see tech writers with gainful employment falling all over themselves
to contribute to a fund to help feed, house, clothe and pay doctor bills for
tech writers and their families if they altruistically choose to turn down
underemployment in hard times to serve the interests of "the entire
industry." In the absence of some equivalent of a union strike fund, people
need to make sure their own oxygen masks are in place before attempting to
assist others.

Gene Kim-Eng



On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Tony Chung <> wrote:

> Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
> accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
> for the entire industry to remain competitive.
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) I began work tonight at the 50/hour rate. Sent the electronically signed contract back. Thank you to all that provided advice and ideas re: how to proceed. Much appreciated.

One last thought before returning to lurk mode until I can offer advice that helps someone else as much as you all have helped me:
I was working on a revision to a manual at my new job. In one paragraph, there'd be two spaces after a period. In another place, I saw one. I asked my co-worker "one space or two after a period?" Reply: "One unless it looks funny, then use two."

ANON_TWER
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) > It would be a pretty poor rate in most CA urban areas.  But $22/hr works out to
> a little under $46,000, which just happens to be the average income for college
> graduates in the US (the average salary for tech writers nationwide is $52,000).

True, but that does assume full 40 hour weeks for 52 consecutive
weeks, which is doable (if they allow working through holidays or pay
for holidays despite you not being an employee), and does not account
for being in a different tax situation.

> If the OP has already left that $22/hr job (presumably for one that is better)
> and is contemplating doing this work for a couple of hours an evening, we're
> probably not talking about crawling into aircraft fuselages or documenting heavy
> equipment teardowns, and chasing down SMEs to drag knowlege out of their heads
> between 9:00 and 11:30 doesn't sound terribly practical either.  So ultimately
> the question remains how badly the extra money is needed and what the
> effort-to-money ratio is.  Even in CA, if someone wanted me to do some redline
> entry and editing/formatting a couple of hours a night for this rate 1099 and I
> didn't have anything better to do with my time I might just think about
> countering at $35/hr and see what happens.

The conversation (countering/bargaining) is worth having. Not
demanding, but talking it out.

I just re-read the original post, which was quite cryptic. The OP is
talking about this as a side gig, which would add 13 hours (an odd
figure) per week. At $22, that's an extra $286/week before any taxes
augmenting a full week's worth of salary from another job (40, perhaps
more, hours per week). Thus the 53 hour remark.

I think the tax advisor is over-estimating with the 50% savings for
taxes, but it's good to be cautious and pad the reserve. Still, given
having a full time job, you have to weigh your loss of 13 hours of
free time per week (about a full waking day of free time, more or
less) and decide if it's worth an extra $143 per week. Personally I'd
be hesitant to go for that ($11/hr net for each hour of my free time
given an existing full time job taking up 40 hours or more per week),
but if your situation calls for additional income, it might be worth
it to you.

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) Yes, the OP left the company that was paying the $22/hr and now the company is
offering $22/hr 1099 for the side gig. With bennies coming from the new day
job, they're not an issue with this one, and I'm guessing that the work that
would be done at night is probably more like updating docs the OP made before
leaving rather than running new doc projects.

50% for taxes 1099 sounds like a safely conservative set-aside for fed and state
income tax plus SET added on top of another full time job. Some of it will end
up coming back at tax refund time, how much mostly dependent on how good a job
the OP does of identifying deductibles, but I'd rather have a refund coming at
tax time than have to write a check to the govt.

Gene Kim-Eng



----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Swallow" <>
I just re-read the original post, which was quite cryptic. The OP is
talking about this as a side gig, which would add 13 hours (an odd
figure) per week. At $22, that's an extra $286/week before any taxes
augmenting a full week's worth of salary from another job (40, perhaps
more, hours per week). Thus the 53 hour remark.

I think the tax advisor is over-estimating with the 50% savings for
taxes, but it's good to be cautious and pad the reserve.

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)

> I don't usually write like this, have been TWer long enough. Don't use this as my writing sample! These are the facts:
> I left a job.
> I was salary.
> Hourly rate calculated @ $22.
> Offered contract @ old job.
> Old job wants 13 hours a week.
> Hourly rate $22, same as salary hourly rate.

Nonononono.... Hourly rate >= 2x salary hourly rate. Otherwise when
tax time comes, or doctor visits are needed, you're screwed.

> Tax person said, "Save 50% of net pay for taxes."
> That would make it $11/hour.
> I don't want that.
> 11 x 13 = 143 net pay
> I want 50
> 25 x 13 =  325 net pay
> I will work 9-1130 PM Sun through Thur.
> I want the extra $ for extra things I want to buy and provide for my family.
> I get up every day @ 6 AM.
> That means 6-ish hours sleep.
> 53 hours/week
> I'm young enough, can handle that.

I'm a bit lost with the above but I think I catch your drift.

> What do I do?
> 1) Take 22 and make 143/week
> 2) Walk away
> 3) Counter with 44 so my actual take home is 286
>
> Do you think countering lower than 44 is worth it in this situation?

No. $22/hr is an insulting rate for a professional. Your salary
calculated hourly is not an accurate equal rate and your
employer/client likely knows this. Counter with $44 or MORE and if
questioned explain that everything that comes with a salary now needs
to be factored into an hourly contract rate to accommodate being taxed
as a self-employed person, to accommodate health insurance costs, and
to accommodate all the other costs that come with running a business,
since you are now your own employee.

> Questioning ...

Answering... Stand up for yourself and the value you deliver.

--
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Twitter: @techcommdood
Blog: http://techcommdood.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
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) Sorry, but you don't go into business for yourself - voluntarily or
otherwise - to bend over backwards to make your prospective clients
happy. You strive to meet their needs within your constraints. If you
don't set standards for yourself, you'll never be taken seriously by
your clients.

On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 12:02 PM, Keith Hood <> wrote:
> I think the question about benefits and equivalence is not germane. The whole point for the company, in offering to hire him back on contract, is to get the same work at lower cost by removing the back-end costs like insurance premiums.  It would make no economic sense for them to hire him back at a rate that costs them as much as it would if he was salaried.
>
> I'd say agree to the 13 hours a week, because that allows you enough time to look for other contract jobs. Ask for a pay rate of $25 an hour and point out that since they're no longer paying for your health insurance and other overhead, they're still saving a lot of money even at the slightly higher pay rate.  If you ask for more than $25 an hour they'll probably just go find some kid right out of school and offer him $20.

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) Ultimately, every decision about rates hinges on how badly you need the job
and how badly the client needs you. The OP doesn't appear to be in survival
mode.

Gene Kim-Eng



On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 2:47 PM, Keith Hood <> wrote:

> I understand that, but unfortunately the market is nothing like what it was
> 5 years ago. For myself, since I don't have a huge nest egg to sit on while
> I look for good work, I'd treat the 13 hr/week job as a survival wage that
> pays for the food and gas while I look for something better. For people who
> have 28 degrees and certificates it may be OK to insist on high standards.
> For everybody else right now it is very definitely a bottom feeder's market.
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) Frankly, I don't see how it I can possibly not take your message
the wrong way, if the wrong way is to disagree with you.



JUST because I need work? My congratulations if you are so well off
that you think that which keeps me alive is a lesser concern than the "industry" remaining "competitive." I'm sorry if I'm betraying the "industry" by
being willing to accept lower wages than what I got 2 years ago because
I have this strange need to know that I can buy groceries next month.



No, I don't just need work. I need to stay alive. Work is JUST the thing that makes that possible.



Mine is the logic of living without a huge nest egg in a badly
deteriorated market where there are lots of competition for openings
and very few openings. As for whether or not I'm helping the "industry"
remaining "competitive," I'll let that be a concern when the
"industry" coughs up the rent money I won't have if I worry more about remaining "competitive" than I worry about getting a job. You want to
know a real definition of not remaining competitive? Being unable to
look for work because the internet access has been cut off for lack of
payment.



Where do you live that you consider $22 an hour poverty wages? Beverly Hills? It certainly won't pay for a house with a swimming pool but there have been many years I'd have cheerfully committed...if not murder, than at least some serious crime for a pay rate that high.



I've been either unemployed or ridiculously underemployed for more than
a year and a half, largely because I have been trying to resist the downward spiral of wages. I have used up my
unemployment benefits and burned through all the savings I had. I've
turned down jobs at $25 and $27 an hour because they were on 1099 or
because I thought the nature and scope of the work justified higher
rates. I finally took a job at $27 an hour because the unemployment was running out, and that job is now over. My last month in that job they limited me to less than 20 hours a week because the project went over schedule and the money was drying up. In the last 20 months I've had exactly one possibility that
offered more than $29 an hour, and I couldn't get that because I've never used
XMetal. And you want me to stand firm and demand $40 an hour so I can
help the "industry" remain "competitive?" If the "industry" wants me to make it even harder on myself to find work for its sake, then the "industry" can back me up in a meaningful way or it can take a hike.



Who said anything about offering to work for free? Where did you get that?



I know all the cant about how our work adds value to the company and
its products. Tell it to the places where I've been getting turned down
for jobs. They don't listen to me when I try to tell them. And if the
documenting work is for internal use, they won't care about any spiel
related to customers.



Specialization. Concentrating on a few limited types of work? In a down
market? The number of companies that may have need for a tech writer is
down, all the companies remaining in those fields are much smaller than
they were, lots of them are still downsizing, there are many more
people looking for fewer jobs, and you think in these circumstances it
makes sense to limit the number of fields in which I look for work?
That's like in the middle of a famine you decide to eat only one type
of vegetable.

Maybe you can afford your definition of "competitive." I can't.

End of rant. Down off soapboax. Everybody on the list have fun and I wish you good luck. Good night.


--- On Mon, 10/25/10, Tony Chung <> wrote:

From: Tony Chung <>
Subject: Re: Rates
To: "TECHWR-L"
Date: Monday, October 25, 2010, 8:21 PM

Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
for the entire industry to remain competitive. Employers will ask why
bother hiring a contractor at $40-100/hour when they can hire
experienced people for $20/hour?

As professionals we need to communicate a value that transcends cost.
Quality technical writing mitigates risk, reduces customer support
calls, and improves customer satisfaction with the company overall.
You can't justify working for free or cheap in the light of what you
offer the company.

For those who are looking for work, when the going gets tough, the
tough specialize. Are there areas in which you could specialize?
Subject matter expertise, production speed, understanding of
collaborative writing, multi-channel deliverables, multi-sourcing,
social media, documentation through the development process, training
materials development, business analysis, content strategy and
migration, programming, hardware testing ... any of these increase
your core value beyond the generalist fresh out of college.

For $18 to 22/hour, I could score a sweet government job in the typing
pool. The higher wages are for greater responsibility, for instance,
accounting or materials management. As a programming technical writer
I feel that I should be able to increase profits for the compan(ies)
that hire me more than enough to accommodate my desired wage.

-Tony
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) Tony Chung wrote:

"Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
for the entire industry to remain competitive. Employers will ask why
bother hiring a contractor at $40-100/hour when they can hire
experienced people for $20/hour?"

While I understand Mr Chung's thought process, I do not agree with it.

The OP needs income to maintain his life -- many of us have been there. I would suggest that he (the OP) negotiate a better rate, taking into account all the expenses noted in the many posts in this thread. Doubling what he called the "hourly rate" would be a good ballpark in which to start.

While I think we all owe ourselves, our clients, and our profession the best work we can deliver, suggesting that we are responsible to each other for the maintenance of a specific compensation level is, in my opinion, mistaken.

John Rosberg
Documentation and Training

2765 Deerfield Road
Riverwoods, IL 60015
847-502-1833




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) I agree with both positions to a degree. I took a "lowball" contract
between full-time jobs, and while it kept the lights on, it also ate
into other opportunities I was able to land at about twice (if not
more) the rate. It actually hindered me from taking on some of these
more substantial gigs.

If you feel you need to take a lowball offer to stay solvent, then by
all means do so. But, through experience (mine and that of those I
know) I can say that taking a lower wage just to stay afloat may not
always be the best option, and can create problems over time. Rather
than scratch at what you can get, it may (also) be a good time to
start thinking about what you want.

On a side note, a friend of mine had a very good paying engineering
job that he absolutely hated. He decided to save as much as possible
once the hint of layoffs started floating through the office. When he
was laid off, he took time to figure out exactly what to do, living
off unemployment and savings. He decided to switch gears completely
and intern, for free, at a brewery. He is now about to go to the
Siebel Institute of Technology for a formal degree in brewing science
on the remainder of his savings, and has decided to downscale his life
accordingly until he's up and running as a paid brewer. And, he's
never been happier.

On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 9:09 AM, john rosberg <> wrote:
>
> Tony Chung wrote:
>
> "Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
> accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
> for the entire industry to remain competitive. Employers will ask why
> bother hiring a contractor at $40-100/hour when they can hire
> experienced people for $20/hour?"
>
> While I understand Mr Chung's thought process, I do not agree with it.
>
> The OP needs income to maintain his life -- many of us have been there. I would suggest that he (the OP) negotiate a better rate, taking into account all the expenses noted in the many posts in this thread. Doubling what he called the "hourly rate" would be a good ballpark in which to start.
>
> While I think we all owe ourselves, our clients, and our profession the best work we can deliver, suggesting that we are responsible to each other for the maintenance of a specific compensation level is, in my opinion, mistaken.

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) On 10/26/10, Porrello, Leonard <> wrote:
> Well said, Tony.


I guess not well enough, based on the collective disagreement.

All I meant to say was that the choice to accept an offer lower than
ideal depends on several factors, and should not be restricted to
"because I need work." I would hope that there would be other benefits
to offset the money.

I can think of cases where my relationship with the cmpany, belief in
the product or service, or the opportunity to develop new skills
trumped the money. Deborah's comment that techwr-l articles were
written on a shoestring describe opportunities for writers to gain
personal and professional recognition for their knowledge.

I've heard it said it's better to be famous than rich. Famous people
always find work, but rich people could spend
themselves dry.

-Tony
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) I don't see tech writers with gainful employment falling all over themselves
to contribute to a fund to help feed, house, clothe and pay doctor bills for
tech writers and their families if they altruistically choose to turn down
underemployment in hard times to serve the interests of "the entire
industry." In the absence of some equivalent of a union strike fund, people
need to make sure their own oxygen masks are in place before attempting to
assist others.

Gene Kim-Eng



On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Tony Chung <> wrote:

> Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
> accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
> for the entire industry to remain competitive.
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) I began work tonight at the 50/hour rate. Sent the electronically signed contract back. Thank you to all that provided advice and ideas re: how to proceed. Much appreciated.

One last thought before returning to lurk mode until I can offer advice that helps someone else as much as you all have helped me:
I was working on a revision to a manual at my new job. In one paragraph, there'd be two spaces after a period. In another place, I saw one. I asked my co-worker "one space or two after a period?" Reply: "One unless it looks funny, then use two."

ANON_TWER
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) > It would be a pretty poor rate in most CA urban areas.  But $22/hr works out to
> a little under $46,000, which just happens to be the average income for college
> graduates in the US (the average salary for tech writers nationwide is $52,000).

True, but that does assume full 40 hour weeks for 52 consecutive
weeks, which is doable (if they allow working through holidays or pay
for holidays despite you not being an employee), and does not account
for being in a different tax situation.

> If the OP has already left that $22/hr job (presumably for one that is better)
> and is contemplating doing this work for a couple of hours an evening, we're
> probably not talking about crawling into aircraft fuselages or documenting heavy
> equipment teardowns, and chasing down SMEs to drag knowlege out of their heads
> between 9:00 and 11:30 doesn't sound terribly practical either.  So ultimately
> the question remains how badly the extra money is needed and what the
> effort-to-money ratio is.  Even in CA, if someone wanted me to do some redline
> entry and editing/formatting a couple of hours a night for this rate 1099 and I
> didn't have anything better to do with my time I might just think about
> countering at $35/hr and see what happens.

The conversation (countering/bargaining) is worth having. Not
demanding, but talking it out.

I just re-read the original post, which was quite cryptic. The OP is
talking about this as a side gig, which would add 13 hours (an odd
figure) per week. At $22, that's an extra $286/week before any taxes
augmenting a full week's worth of salary from another job (40, perhaps
more, hours per week). Thus the 53 hour remark.

I think the tax advisor is over-estimating with the 50% savings for
taxes, but it's good to be cautious and pad the reserve. Still, given
having a full time job, you have to weigh your loss of 13 hours of
free time per week (about a full waking day of free time, more or
less) and decide if it's worth an extra $143 per week. Personally I'd
be hesitant to go for that ($11/hr net for each hour of my free time
given an existing full time job taking up 40 hours or more per week),
but if your situation calls for additional income, it might be worth
it to you.

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) Yes, the OP left the company that was paying the $22/hr and now the company is
offering $22/hr 1099 for the side gig. With bennies coming from the new day
job, they're not an issue with this one, and I'm guessing that the work that
would be done at night is probably more like updating docs the OP made before
leaving rather than running new doc projects.

50% for taxes 1099 sounds like a safely conservative set-aside for fed and state
income tax plus SET added on top of another full time job. Some of it will end
up coming back at tax refund time, how much mostly dependent on how good a job
the OP does of identifying deductibles, but I'd rather have a refund coming at
tax time than have to write a check to the govt.

Gene Kim-Eng



----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Swallow" <>
I just re-read the original post, which was quite cryptic. The OP is
talking about this as a side gig, which would add 13 hours (an odd
figure) per week. At $22, that's an extra $286/week before any taxes
augmenting a full week's worth of salary from another job (40, perhaps
more, hours per week). Thus the 53 hour remark.

I think the tax advisor is over-estimating with the 50% savings for
taxes, but it's good to be cautious and pad the reserve.

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) That one's been around for a while...and reflects those of us who have
been around for a while.

I'm of the generation that was taught two spaces. Of course, I was
also taught on typewriters. As word processors became standard, the
rule changed to one.

How old was the co-worker you asked?

On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 11:57 PM, Anon TWer <> wrote:
>
> I began work tonight at the 50/hour rate. Sent the electronically signed contract back. Thank you to all that provided advice and ideas re: how to proceed. Much appreciated.
>
> One last thought before returning to lurk mode until I can offer advice that helps someone else as much as you all have helped me:
> I was working on a revision to a manual at my new job. In one paragraph, there'd be two spaces after a period. In another place, I saw one. I asked my co-worker "one space or two after a period?" Reply: "One unless it looks funny, then use two."
>
> ANON_TWER
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)

> I don't usually write like this, have been TWer long enough. Don't use this as my writing sample! These are the facts:
> I left a job.
> I was salary.
> Hourly rate calculated @ $22.
> Offered contract @ old job.
> Old job wants 13 hours a week.
> Hourly rate $22, same as salary hourly rate.

Nonononono.... Hourly rate >= 2x salary hourly rate. Otherwise when
tax time comes, or doctor visits are needed, you're screwed.

> Tax person said, "Save 50% of net pay for taxes."
> That would make it $11/hour.
> I don't want that.
> 11 x 13 = 143 net pay
> I want 50
> 25 x 13 =  325 net pay
> I will work 9-1130 PM Sun through Thur.
> I want the extra $ for extra things I want to buy and provide for my family.
> I get up every day @ 6 AM.
> That means 6-ish hours sleep.
> 53 hours/week
> I'm young enough, can handle that.

I'm a bit lost with the above but I think I catch your drift.

> What do I do?
> 1) Take 22 and make 143/week
> 2) Walk away
> 3) Counter with 44 so my actual take home is 286
>
> Do you think countering lower than 44 is worth it in this situation?

No. $22/hr is an insulting rate for a professional. Your salary
calculated hourly is not an accurate equal rate and your
employer/client likely knows this. Counter with $44 or MORE and if
questioned explain that everything that comes with a salary now needs
to be factored into an hourly contract rate to accommodate being taxed
as a self-employed person, to accommodate health insurance costs, and
to accommodate all the other costs that come with running a business,
since you are now your own employee.

> Questioning ...

Answering... Stand up for yourself and the value you deliver.

--
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Twitter: @techcommdood
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) Sorry, but you don't go into business for yourself - voluntarily or
otherwise - to bend over backwards to make your prospective clients
happy. You strive to meet their needs within your constraints. If you
don't set standards for yourself, you'll never be taken seriously by
your clients.

On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 12:02 PM, Keith Hood <> wrote:
> I think the question about benefits and equivalence is not germane. The whole point for the company, in offering to hire him back on contract, is to get the same work at lower cost by removing the back-end costs like insurance premiums.  It would make no economic sense for them to hire him back at a rate that costs them as much as it would if he was salaried.
>
> I'd say agree to the 13 hours a week, because that allows you enough time to look for other contract jobs. Ask for a pay rate of $25 an hour and point out that since they're no longer paying for your health insurance and other overhead, they're still saving a lot of money even at the slightly higher pay rate.  If you ask for more than $25 an hour they'll probably just go find some kid right out of school and offer him $20.

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) Ultimately, every decision about rates hinges on how badly you need the job
and how badly the client needs you. The OP doesn't appear to be in survival
mode.

Gene Kim-Eng



On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 2:47 PM, Keith Hood <> wrote:

> I understand that, but unfortunately the market is nothing like what it was
> 5 years ago. For myself, since I don't have a huge nest egg to sit on while
> I look for good work, I'd treat the 13 hr/week job as a survival wage that
> pays for the food and gas while I look for something better. For people who
> have 28 degrees and certificates it may be OK to insist on high standards.
> For everybody else right now it is very definitely a bottom feeder's market.
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) Frankly, I don't see how it I can possibly not take your message
the wrong way, if the wrong way is to disagree with you.



JUST because I need work? My congratulations if you are so well off
that you think that which keeps me alive is a lesser concern than the "industry" remaining "competitive." I'm sorry if I'm betraying the "industry" by
being willing to accept lower wages than what I got 2 years ago because
I have this strange need to know that I can buy groceries next month.



No, I don't just need work. I need to stay alive. Work is JUST the thing that makes that possible.



Mine is the logic of living without a huge nest egg in a badly
deteriorated market where there are lots of competition for openings
and very few openings. As for whether or not I'm helping the "industry"
remaining "competitive," I'll let that be a concern when the
"industry" coughs up the rent money I won't have if I worry more about remaining "competitive" than I worry about getting a job. You want to
know a real definition of not remaining competitive? Being unable to
look for work because the internet access has been cut off for lack of
payment.



Where do you live that you consider $22 an hour poverty wages? Beverly Hills? It certainly won't pay for a house with a swimming pool but there have been many years I'd have cheerfully committed...if not murder, than at least some serious crime for a pay rate that high.



I've been either unemployed or ridiculously underemployed for more than
a year and a half, largely because I have been trying to resist the downward spiral of wages. I have used up my
unemployment benefits and burned through all the savings I had. I've
turned down jobs at $25 and $27 an hour because they were on 1099 or
because I thought the nature and scope of the work justified higher
rates. I finally took a job at $27 an hour because the unemployment was running out, and that job is now over. My last month in that job they limited me to less than 20 hours a week because the project went over schedule and the money was drying up. In the last 20 months I've had exactly one possibility that
offered more than $29 an hour, and I couldn't get that because I've never used
XMetal. And you want me to stand firm and demand $40 an hour so I can
help the "industry" remain "competitive?" If the "industry" wants me to make it even harder on myself to find work for its sake, then the "industry" can back me up in a meaningful way or it can take a hike.



Who said anything about offering to work for free? Where did you get that?



I know all the cant about how our work adds value to the company and
its products. Tell it to the places where I've been getting turned down
for jobs. They don't listen to me when I try to tell them. And if the
documenting work is for internal use, they won't care about any spiel
related to customers.



Specialization. Concentrating on a few limited types of work? In a down
market? The number of companies that may have need for a tech writer is
down, all the companies remaining in those fields are much smaller than
they were, lots of them are still downsizing, there are many more
people looking for fewer jobs, and you think in these circumstances it
makes sense to limit the number of fields in which I look for work?
That's like in the middle of a famine you decide to eat only one type
of vegetable.

Maybe you can afford your definition of "competitive." I can't.

End of rant. Down off soapboax. Everybody on the list have fun and I wish you good luck. Good night.


--- On Mon, 10/25/10, Tony Chung <> wrote:

From: Tony Chung <>
Subject: Re: Rates
To: "TECHWR-L"
Date: Monday, October 25, 2010, 8:21 PM

Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
for the entire industry to remain competitive. Employers will ask why
bother hiring a contractor at $40-100/hour when they can hire
experienced people for $20/hour?

As professionals we need to communicate a value that transcends cost.
Quality technical writing mitigates risk, reduces customer support
calls, and improves customer satisfaction with the company overall.
You can't justify working for free or cheap in the light of what you
offer the company.

For those who are looking for work, when the going gets tough, the
tough specialize. Are there areas in which you could specialize?
Subject matter expertise, production speed, understanding of
collaborative writing, multi-channel deliverables, multi-sourcing,
social media, documentation through the development process, training
materials development, business analysis, content strategy and
migration, programming, hardware testing ... any of these increase
your core value beyond the generalist fresh out of college.

For $18 to 22/hour, I could score a sweet government job in the typing
pool. The higher wages are for greater responsibility, for instance,
accounting or materials management. As a programming technical writer
I feel that I should be able to increase profits for the compan(ies)
that hire me more than enough to accommodate my desired wage.

-Tony
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) Tony Chung wrote:

"Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
for the entire industry to remain competitive. Employers will ask why
bother hiring a contractor at $40-100/hour when they can hire
experienced people for $20/hour?"

While I understand Mr Chung's thought process, I do not agree with it.

The OP needs income to maintain his life -- many of us have been there. I would suggest that he (the OP) negotiate a better rate, taking into account all the expenses noted in the many posts in this thread. Doubling what he called the "hourly rate" would be a good ballpark in which to start.

While I think we all owe ourselves, our clients, and our profession the best work we can deliver, suggesting that we are responsible to each other for the maintenance of a specific compensation level is, in my opinion, mistaken.

John Rosberg
Documentation and Training

2765 Deerfield Road
Riverwoods, IL 60015
847-502-1833




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) I agree with both positions to a degree. I took a "lowball" contract
between full-time jobs, and while it kept the lights on, it also ate
into other opportunities I was able to land at about twice (if not
more) the rate. It actually hindered me from taking on some of these
more substantial gigs.

If you feel you need to take a lowball offer to stay solvent, then by
all means do so. But, through experience (mine and that of those I
know) I can say that taking a lower wage just to stay afloat may not
always be the best option, and can create problems over time. Rather
than scratch at what you can get, it may (also) be a good time to
start thinking about what you want.

On a side note, a friend of mine had a very good paying engineering
job that he absolutely hated. He decided to save as much as possible
once the hint of layoffs started floating through the office. When he
was laid off, he took time to figure out exactly what to do, living
off unemployment and savings. He decided to switch gears completely
and intern, for free, at a brewery. He is now about to go to the
Siebel Institute of Technology for a formal degree in brewing science
on the remainder of his savings, and has decided to downscale his life
accordingly until he's up and running as a paid brewer. And, he's
never been happier.

On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 9:09 AM, john rosberg <> wrote:
>
> Tony Chung wrote:
>
> "Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
> accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
> for the entire industry to remain competitive. Employers will ask why
> bother hiring a contractor at $40-100/hour when they can hire
> experienced people for $20/hour?"
>
> While I understand Mr Chung's thought process, I do not agree with it.
>
> The OP needs income to maintain his life -- many of us have been there. I would suggest that he (the OP) negotiate a better rate, taking into account all the expenses noted in the many posts in this thread. Doubling what he called the "hourly rate" would be a good ballpark in which to start.
>
> While I think we all owe ourselves, our clients, and our profession the best work we can deliver, suggesting that we are responsible to each other for the maintenance of a specific compensation level is, in my opinion, mistaken.

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Twitter: @techcommdood
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) On 10/26/10, Porrello, Leonard <> wrote:
> Well said, Tony.


I guess not well enough, based on the collective disagreement.

All I meant to say was that the choice to accept an offer lower than
ideal depends on several factors, and should not be restricted to
"because I need work." I would hope that there would be other benefits
to offset the money.

I can think of cases where my relationship with the cmpany, belief in
the product or service, or the opportunity to develop new skills
trumped the money. Deborah's comment that techwr-l articles were
written on a shoestring describe opportunities for writers to gain
personal and professional recognition for their knowledge.

I've heard it said it's better to be famous than rich. Famous people
always find work, but rich people could spend
themselves dry.

-Tony
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) I don't see tech writers with gainful employment falling all over themselves
to contribute to a fund to help feed, house, clothe and pay doctor bills for
tech writers and their families if they altruistically choose to turn down
underemployment in hard times to serve the interests of "the entire
industry." In the absence of some equivalent of a union strike fund, people
need to make sure their own oxygen masks are in place before attempting to
assist others.

Gene Kim-Eng



On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Tony Chung <> wrote:

> Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
> accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
> for the entire industry to remain competitive.
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) I began work tonight at the 50/hour rate. Sent the electronically signed contract back. Thank you to all that provided advice and ideas re: how to proceed. Much appreciated.

One last thought before returning to lurk mode until I can offer advice that helps someone else as much as you all have helped me:
I was working on a revision to a manual at my new job. In one paragraph, there'd be two spaces after a period. In another place, I saw one. I asked my co-worker "one space or two after a period?" Reply: "One unless it looks funny, then use two."

ANON_TWER
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) > It would be a pretty poor rate in most CA urban areas.  But $22/hr works out to
> a little under $46,000, which just happens to be the average income for college
> graduates in the US (the average salary for tech writers nationwide is $52,000).

True, but that does assume full 40 hour weeks for 52 consecutive
weeks, which is doable (if they allow working through holidays or pay
for holidays despite you not being an employee), and does not account
for being in a different tax situation.

> If the OP has already left that $22/hr job (presumably for one that is better)
> and is contemplating doing this work for a couple of hours an evening, we're
> probably not talking about crawling into aircraft fuselages or documenting heavy
> equipment teardowns, and chasing down SMEs to drag knowlege out of their heads
> between 9:00 and 11:30 doesn't sound terribly practical either.  So ultimately
> the question remains how badly the extra money is needed and what the
> effort-to-money ratio is.  Even in CA, if someone wanted me to do some redline
> entry and editing/formatting a couple of hours a night for this rate 1099 and I
> didn't have anything better to do with my time I might just think about
> countering at $35/hr and see what happens.

The conversation (countering/bargaining) is worth having. Not
demanding, but talking it out.

I just re-read the original post, which was quite cryptic. The OP is
talking about this as a side gig, which would add 13 hours (an odd
figure) per week. At $22, that's an extra $286/week before any taxes
augmenting a full week's worth of salary from another job (40, perhaps
more, hours per week). Thus the 53 hour remark.

I think the tax advisor is over-estimating with the 50% savings for
taxes, but it's good to be cautious and pad the reserve. Still, given
having a full time job, you have to weigh your loss of 13 hours of
free time per week (about a full waking day of free time, more or
less) and decide if it's worth an extra $143 per week. Personally I'd
be hesitant to go for that ($11/hr net for each hour of my free time
given an existing full time job taking up 40 hours or more per week),
but if your situation calls for additional income, it might be worth
it to you.

--
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Twitter: @techcommdood
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) Yes, the OP left the company that was paying the $22/hr and now the company is
offering $22/hr 1099 for the side gig. With bennies coming from the new day
job, they're not an issue with this one, and I'm guessing that the work that
would be done at night is probably more like updating docs the OP made before
leaving rather than running new doc projects.

50% for taxes 1099 sounds like a safely conservative set-aside for fed and state
income tax plus SET added on top of another full time job. Some of it will end
up coming back at tax refund time, how much mostly dependent on how good a job
the OP does of identifying deductibles, but I'd rather have a refund coming at
tax time than have to write a check to the govt.

Gene Kim-Eng



----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Swallow" <>
I just re-read the original post, which was quite cryptic. The OP is
talking about this as a side gig, which would add 13 hours (an odd
figure) per week. At $22, that's an extra $286/week before any taxes
augmenting a full week's worth of salary from another job (40, perhaps
more, hours per week). Thus the 53 hour remark.

I think the tax advisor is over-estimating with the 50% savings for
taxes, but it's good to be cautious and pad the reserve.

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) That one's been around for a while...and reflects those of us who have
been around for a while.

I'm of the generation that was taught two spaces. Of course, I was
also taught on typewriters. As word processors became standard, the
rule changed to one.

How old was the co-worker you asked?

On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 11:57 PM, Anon TWer <> wrote:
>
> I began work tonight at the 50/hour rate. Sent the electronically signed contract back. Thank you to all that provided advice and ideas re: how to proceed. Much appreciated.
>
> One last thought before returning to lurk mode until I can offer advice that helps someone else as much as you all have helped me:
> I was working on a revision to a manual at my new job. In one paragraph, there'd be two spaces after a period. In another place, I saw one. I asked my co-worker "one space or two after a period?" Reply: "One unless it looks funny, then use two."
>
> ANON_TWER
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) > I was working on a revision to a manual at my new job. In one paragraph, there'd be two spaces after a period. In another place, I saw one. I asked my co-worker "one space or two after a period?" Reply: "One unless it looks funny, then use two."

That's hysterical. I wonder who's in charge of deciding when it 'looks funny"?

Char James-Tanny ~ JTF Associates, Inc. ~ http://www.helpstuff.com
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> I don't usually write like this, have been TWer long enough. Don't use this as my writing sample! These are the facts:
> I left a job.
> I was salary.
> Hourly rate calculated @ $22.
> Offered contract @ old job.
> Old job wants 13 hours a week.
> Hourly rate $22, same as salary hourly rate.

Nonononono.... Hourly rate >= 2x salary hourly rate. Otherwise when
tax time comes, or doctor visits are needed, you're screwed.

> Tax person said, "Save 50% of net pay for taxes."
> That would make it $11/hour.
> I don't want that.
> 11 x 13 = 143 net pay
> I want 50
> 25 x 13 =  325 net pay
> I will work 9-1130 PM Sun through Thur.
> I want the extra $ for extra things I want to buy and provide for my family.
> I get up every day @ 6 AM.
> That means 6-ish hours sleep.
> 53 hours/week
> I'm young enough, can handle that.

I'm a bit lost with the above but I think I catch your drift.

> What do I do?
> 1) Take 22 and make 143/week
> 2) Walk away
> 3) Counter with 44 so my actual take home is 286
>
> Do you think countering lower than 44 is worth it in this situation?

No. $22/hr is an insulting rate for a professional. Your salary
calculated hourly is not an accurate equal rate and your
employer/client likely knows this. Counter with $44 or MORE and if
questioned explain that everything that comes with a salary now needs
to be factored into an hourly contract rate to accommodate being taxed
as a self-employed person, to accommodate health insurance costs, and
to accommodate all the other costs that come with running a business,
since you are now your own employee.

> Questioning ...

Answering... Stand up for yourself and the value you deliver.

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) Sorry, but you don't go into business for yourself - voluntarily or
otherwise - to bend over backwards to make your prospective clients
happy. You strive to meet their needs within your constraints. If you
don't set standards for yourself, you'll never be taken seriously by
your clients.

On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 12:02 PM, Keith Hood <> wrote:
> I think the question about benefits and equivalence is not germane. The whole point for the company, in offering to hire him back on contract, is to get the same work at lower cost by removing the back-end costs like insurance premiums.  It would make no economic sense for them to hire him back at a rate that costs them as much as it would if he was salaried.
>
> I'd say agree to the 13 hours a week, because that allows you enough time to look for other contract jobs. Ask for a pay rate of $25 an hour and point out that since they're no longer paying for your health insurance and other overhead, they're still saving a lot of money even at the slightly higher pay rate.  If you ask for more than $25 an hour they'll probably just go find some kid right out of school and offer him $20.

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) Ultimately, every decision about rates hinges on how badly you need the job
and how badly the client needs you. The OP doesn't appear to be in survival
mode.

Gene Kim-Eng



On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 2:47 PM, Keith Hood <> wrote:

> I understand that, but unfortunately the market is nothing like what it was
> 5 years ago. For myself, since I don't have a huge nest egg to sit on while
> I look for good work, I'd treat the 13 hr/week job as a survival wage that
> pays for the food and gas while I look for something better. For people who
> have 28 degrees and certificates it may be OK to insist on high standards.
> For everybody else right now it is very definitely a bottom feeder's market.
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) Frankly, I don't see how it I can possibly not take your message
the wrong way, if the wrong way is to disagree with you.



JUST because I need work? My congratulations if you are so well off
that you think that which keeps me alive is a lesser concern than the "industry" remaining "competitive." I'm sorry if I'm betraying the "industry" by
being willing to accept lower wages than what I got 2 years ago because
I have this strange need to know that I can buy groceries next month.



No, I don't just need work. I need to stay alive. Work is JUST the thing that makes that possible.



Mine is the logic of living without a huge nest egg in a badly
deteriorated market where there are lots of competition for openings
and very few openings. As for whether or not I'm helping the "industry"
remaining "competitive," I'll let that be a concern when the
"industry" coughs up the rent money I won't have if I worry more about remaining "competitive" than I worry about getting a job. You want to
know a real definition of not remaining competitive? Being unable to
look for work because the internet access has been cut off for lack of
payment.



Where do you live that you consider $22 an hour poverty wages? Beverly Hills? It certainly won't pay for a house with a swimming pool but there have been many years I'd have cheerfully committed...if not murder, than at least some serious crime for a pay rate that high.



I've been either unemployed or ridiculously underemployed for more than
a year and a half, largely because I have been trying to resist the downward spiral of wages. I have used up my
unemployment benefits and burned through all the savings I had. I've
turned down jobs at $25 and $27 an hour because they were on 1099 or
because I thought the nature and scope of the work justified higher
rates. I finally took a job at $27 an hour because the unemployment was running out, and that job is now over. My last month in that job they limited me to less than 20 hours a week because the project went over schedule and the money was drying up. In the last 20 months I've had exactly one possibility that
offered more than $29 an hour, and I couldn't get that because I've never used
XMetal. And you want me to stand firm and demand $40 an hour so I can
help the "industry" remain "competitive?" If the "industry" wants me to make it even harder on myself to find work for its sake, then the "industry" can back me up in a meaningful way or it can take a hike.



Who said anything about offering to work for free? Where did you get that?



I know all the cant about how our work adds value to the company and
its products. Tell it to the places where I've been getting turned down
for jobs. They don't listen to me when I try to tell them. And if the
documenting work is for internal use, they won't care about any spiel
related to customers.



Specialization. Concentrating on a few limited types of work? In a down
market? The number of companies that may have need for a tech writer is
down, all the companies remaining in those fields are much smaller than
they were, lots of them are still downsizing, there are many more
people looking for fewer jobs, and you think in these circumstances it
makes sense to limit the number of fields in which I look for work?
That's like in the middle of a famine you decide to eat only one type
of vegetable.

Maybe you can afford your definition of "competitive." I can't.

End of rant. Down off soapboax. Everybody on the list have fun and I wish you good luck. Good night.


--- On Mon, 10/25/10, Tony Chung <> wrote:

From: Tony Chung <>
Subject: Re: Rates
To: "TECHWR-L"
Date: Monday, October 25, 2010, 8:21 PM

Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
for the entire industry to remain competitive. Employers will ask why
bother hiring a contractor at $40-100/hour when they can hire
experienced people for $20/hour?

As professionals we need to communicate a value that transcends cost.
Quality technical writing mitigates risk, reduces customer support
calls, and improves customer satisfaction with the company overall.
You can't justify working for free or cheap in the light of what you
offer the company.

For those who are looking for work, when the going gets tough, the
tough specialize. Are there areas in which you could specialize?
Subject matter expertise, production speed, understanding of
collaborative writing, multi-channel deliverables, multi-sourcing,
social media, documentation through the development process, training
materials development, business analysis, content strategy and
migration, programming, hardware testing ... any of these increase
your core value beyond the generalist fresh out of college.

For $18 to 22/hour, I could score a sweet government job in the typing
pool. The higher wages are for greater responsibility, for instance,
accounting or materials management. As a programming technical writer
I feel that I should be able to increase profits for the compan(ies)
that hire me more than enough to accommodate my desired wage.

-Tony
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) Tony Chung wrote:

"Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
for the entire industry to remain competitive. Employers will ask why
bother hiring a contractor at $40-100/hour when they can hire
experienced people for $20/hour?"

While I understand Mr Chung's thought process, I do not agree with it.

The OP needs income to maintain his life -- many of us have been there. I would suggest that he (the OP) negotiate a better rate, taking into account all the expenses noted in the many posts in this thread. Doubling what he called the "hourly rate" would be a good ballpark in which to start.

While I think we all owe ourselves, our clients, and our profession the best work we can deliver, suggesting that we are responsible to each other for the maintenance of a specific compensation level is, in my opinion, mistaken.

John Rosberg
Documentation and Training

2765 Deerfield Road
Riverwoods, IL 60015
847-502-1833




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) I agree with both positions to a degree. I took a "lowball" contract
between full-time jobs, and while it kept the lights on, it also ate
into other opportunities I was able to land at about twice (if not
more) the rate. It actually hindered me from taking on some of these
more substantial gigs.

If you feel you need to take a lowball offer to stay solvent, then by
all means do so. But, through experience (mine and that of those I
know) I can say that taking a lower wage just to stay afloat may not
always be the best option, and can create problems over time. Rather
than scratch at what you can get, it may (also) be a good time to
start thinking about what you want.

On a side note, a friend of mine had a very good paying engineering
job that he absolutely hated. He decided to save as much as possible
once the hint of layoffs started floating through the office. When he
was laid off, he took time to figure out exactly what to do, living
off unemployment and savings. He decided to switch gears completely
and intern, for free, at a brewery. He is now about to go to the
Siebel Institute of Technology for a formal degree in brewing science
on the remainder of his savings, and has decided to downscale his life
accordingly until he's up and running as a paid brewer. And, he's
never been happier.

On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 9:09 AM, john rosberg <> wrote:
>
> Tony Chung wrote:
>
> "Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
> accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
> for the entire industry to remain competitive. Employers will ask why
> bother hiring a contractor at $40-100/hour when they can hire
> experienced people for $20/hour?"
>
> While I understand Mr Chung's thought process, I do not agree with it.
>
> The OP needs income to maintain his life -- many of us have been there. I would suggest that he (the OP) negotiate a better rate, taking into account all the expenses noted in the many posts in this thread. Doubling what he called the "hourly rate" would be a good ballpark in which to start.
>
> While I think we all owe ourselves, our clients, and our profession the best work we can deliver, suggesting that we are responsible to each other for the maintenance of a specific compensation level is, in my opinion, mistaken.

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) On 10/26/10, Porrello, Leonard <> wrote:
> Well said, Tony.


I guess not well enough, based on the collective disagreement.

All I meant to say was that the choice to accept an offer lower than
ideal depends on several factors, and should not be restricted to
"because I need work." I would hope that there would be other benefits
to offset the money.

I can think of cases where my relationship with the cmpany, belief in
the product or service, or the opportunity to develop new skills
trumped the money. Deborah's comment that techwr-l articles were
written on a shoestring describe opportunities for writers to gain
personal and professional recognition for their knowledge.

I've heard it said it's better to be famous than rich. Famous people
always find work, but rich people could spend
themselves dry.

-Tony
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) I don't see tech writers with gainful employment falling all over themselves
to contribute to a fund to help feed, house, clothe and pay doctor bills for
tech writers and their families if they altruistically choose to turn down
underemployment in hard times to serve the interests of "the entire
industry." In the absence of some equivalent of a union strike fund, people
need to make sure their own oxygen masks are in place before attempting to
assist others.

Gene Kim-Eng



On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Tony Chung <> wrote:

> Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
> accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
> for the entire industry to remain competitive.
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) I began work tonight at the 50/hour rate. Sent the electronically signed contract back. Thank you to all that provided advice and ideas re: how to proceed. Much appreciated.

One last thought before returning to lurk mode until I can offer advice that helps someone else as much as you all have helped me:
I was working on a revision to a manual at my new job. In one paragraph, there'd be two spaces after a period. In another place, I saw one. I asked my co-worker "one space or two after a period?" Reply: "One unless it looks funny, then use two."

ANON_TWER
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) > It would be a pretty poor rate in most CA urban areas.  But $22/hr works out to
> a little under $46,000, which just happens to be the average income for college
> graduates in the US (the average salary for tech writers nationwide is $52,000).

True, but that does assume full 40 hour weeks for 52 consecutive
weeks, which is doable (if they allow working through holidays or pay
for holidays despite you not being an employee), and does not account
for being in a different tax situation.

> If the OP has already left that $22/hr job (presumably for one that is better)
> and is contemplating doing this work for a couple of hours an evening, we're
> probably not talking about crawling into aircraft fuselages or documenting heavy
> equipment teardowns, and chasing down SMEs to drag knowlege out of their heads
> between 9:00 and 11:30 doesn't sound terribly practical either.  So ultimately
> the question remains how badly the extra money is needed and what the
> effort-to-money ratio is.  Even in CA, if someone wanted me to do some redline
> entry and editing/formatting a couple of hours a night for this rate 1099 and I
> didn't have anything better to do with my time I might just think about
> countering at $35/hr and see what happens.

The conversation (countering/bargaining) is worth having. Not
demanding, but talking it out.

I just re-read the original post, which was quite cryptic. The OP is
talking about this as a side gig, which would add 13 hours (an odd
figure) per week. At $22, that's an extra $286/week before any taxes
augmenting a full week's worth of salary from another job (40, perhaps
more, hours per week). Thus the 53 hour remark.

I think the tax advisor is over-estimating with the 50% savings for
taxes, but it's good to be cautious and pad the reserve. Still, given
having a full time job, you have to weigh your loss of 13 hours of
free time per week (about a full waking day of free time, more or
less) and decide if it's worth an extra $143 per week. Personally I'd
be hesitant to go for that ($11/hr net for each hour of my free time
given an existing full time job taking up 40 hours or more per week),
but if your situation calls for additional income, it might be worth
it to you.

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Twitter: @techcommdood
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) Yes, the OP left the company that was paying the $22/hr and now the company is
offering $22/hr 1099 for the side gig. With bennies coming from the new day
job, they're not an issue with this one, and I'm guessing that the work that
would be done at night is probably more like updating docs the OP made before
leaving rather than running new doc projects.

50% for taxes 1099 sounds like a safely conservative set-aside for fed and state
income tax plus SET added on top of another full time job. Some of it will end
up coming back at tax refund time, how much mostly dependent on how good a job
the OP does of identifying deductibles, but I'd rather have a refund coming at
tax time than have to write a check to the govt.

Gene Kim-Eng



----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Swallow" <>
I just re-read the original post, which was quite cryptic. The OP is
talking about this as a side gig, which would add 13 hours (an odd
figure) per week. At $22, that's an extra $286/week before any taxes
augmenting a full week's worth of salary from another job (40, perhaps
more, hours per week). Thus the 53 hour remark.

I think the tax advisor is over-estimating with the 50% savings for
taxes, but it's good to be cautious and pad the reserve.

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) That one's been around for a while...and reflects those of us who have
been around for a while.

I'm of the generation that was taught two spaces. Of course, I was
also taught on typewriters. As word processors became standard, the
rule changed to one.

How old was the co-worker you asked?

On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 11:57 PM, Anon TWer <> wrote:
>
> I began work tonight at the 50/hour rate. Sent the electronically signed contract back. Thank you to all that provided advice and ideas re: how to proceed. Much appreciated.
>
> One last thought before returning to lurk mode until I can offer advice that helps someone else as much as you all have helped me:
> I was working on a revision to a manual at my new job. In one paragraph, there'd be two spaces after a period. In another place, I saw one. I asked my co-worker "one space or two after a period?" Reply: "One unless it looks funny, then use two."
>
> ANON_TWER
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) > I was working on a revision to a manual at my new job. In one paragraph, there'd be two spaces after a period. In another place, I saw one. I asked my co-worker "one space or two after a period?" Reply: "One unless it looks funny, then use two."

That's hysterical. I wonder who's in charge of deciding when it 'looks funny"?

Char James-Tanny ~ JTF Associates, Inc. ~ http://www.helpstuff.com
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Posted on the TECHWR-L mailing list. Go to http://lists.techwr-l.com/mailman/listinfo/techwr-l to subscribe. I so agree with the sell-by date. Mine apparently expired many years
ago despite my technological aptitude. I am finding that companies are
hiring candidates fresh out of university and training them for the
job. These young ones will work long hours for dirt cheap wages. How
can you compete with that if you have 10 years experience doing that
job successfully and are a mature candidate?

On 27-Oct-10, at 2:23 AM, David Neeley wrote:

> One factor I am very surprised not to have seen thus far about taking
> a much lower hourly rate "to get by."
>
> How many job applications have you had where they request a salary
> history?
>
> Or, better--how many job applications have you seen where they do
> *not* ask for such a history?
>
> Taking a low rate to make ends meet may, in fact, constrain how much
> you may be offered for later gigs.
>
> Adding insult to injury--I cannot tell you how often I was told I was
> "overqualified" for a job I was applying for. Too many employers, not
> taking into account that you may have had to take a substantial cut to
> pay the bills, may wonder whether it was something the matter with
> you--despite the economy or other considerations.
>
> This may be especially true if you are nearing your "sell-by date"--if
> you are middle aged or even slightly beyond. Younger employers seem
> already to assume that older employees must have something wrong or
> *surely* are not up to date from a technical standpoint.
>
> Even in the best of times, these factors can greatly limit the choices
> someone may face.
>
> David
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)

> I don't usually write like this, have been TWer long enough. Don't use this as my writing sample! These are the facts:
> I left a job.
> I was salary.
> Hourly rate calculated @ $22.
> Offered contract @ old job.
> Old job wants 13 hours a week.
> Hourly rate $22, same as salary hourly rate.

Nonononono.... Hourly rate >= 2x salary hourly rate. Otherwise when
tax time comes, or doctor visits are needed, you're screwed.

> Tax person said, "Save 50% of net pay for taxes."
> That would make it $11/hour.
> I don't want that.
> 11 x 13 = 143 net pay
> I want 50
> 25 x 13 =  325 net pay
> I will work 9-1130 PM Sun through Thur.
> I want the extra $ for extra things I want to buy and provide for my family.
> I get up every day @ 6 AM.
> That means 6-ish hours sleep.
> 53 hours/week
> I'm young enough, can handle that.

I'm a bit lost with the above but I think I catch your drift.

> What do I do?
> 1) Take 22 and make 143/week
> 2) Walk away
> 3) Counter with 44 so my actual take home is 286
>
> Do you think countering lower than 44 is worth it in this situation?

No. $22/hr is an insulting rate for a professional. Your salary
calculated hourly is not an accurate equal rate and your
employer/client likely knows this. Counter with $44 or MORE and if
questioned explain that everything that comes with a salary now needs
to be factored into an hourly contract rate to accommodate being taxed
as a self-employed person, to accommodate health insurance costs, and
to accommodate all the other costs that come with running a business,
since you are now your own employee.

> Questioning ...

Answering... Stand up for yourself and the value you deliver.

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) Sorry, but you don't go into business for yourself - voluntarily or
otherwise - to bend over backwards to make your prospective clients
happy. You strive to meet their needs within your constraints. If you
don't set standards for yourself, you'll never be taken seriously by
your clients.

On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 12:02 PM, Keith Hood <> wrote:
> I think the question about benefits and equivalence is not germane. The whole point for the company, in offering to hire him back on contract, is to get the same work at lower cost by removing the back-end costs like insurance premiums.  It would make no economic sense for them to hire him back at a rate that costs them as much as it would if he was salaried.
>
> I'd say agree to the 13 hours a week, because that allows you enough time to look for other contract jobs. Ask for a pay rate of $25 an hour and point out that since they're no longer paying for your health insurance and other overhead, they're still saving a lot of money even at the slightly higher pay rate.  If you ask for more than $25 an hour they'll probably just go find some kid right out of school and offer him $20.

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) Ultimately, every decision about rates hinges on how badly you need the job
and how badly the client needs you. The OP doesn't appear to be in survival
mode.

Gene Kim-Eng



On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 2:47 PM, Keith Hood <> wrote:

> I understand that, but unfortunately the market is nothing like what it was
> 5 years ago. For myself, since I don't have a huge nest egg to sit on while
> I look for good work, I'd treat the 13 hr/week job as a survival wage that
> pays for the food and gas while I look for something better. For people who
> have 28 degrees and certificates it may be OK to insist on high standards.
> For everybody else right now it is very definitely a bottom feeder's market.
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) Frankly, I don't see how it I can possibly not take your message
the wrong way, if the wrong way is to disagree with you.



JUST because I need work? My congratulations if you are so well off
that you think that which keeps me alive is a lesser concern than the "industry" remaining "competitive." I'm sorry if I'm betraying the "industry" by
being willing to accept lower wages than what I got 2 years ago because
I have this strange need to know that I can buy groceries next month.



No, I don't just need work. I need to stay alive. Work is JUST the thing that makes that possible.



Mine is the logic of living without a huge nest egg in a badly
deteriorated market where there are lots of competition for openings
and very few openings. As for whether or not I'm helping the "industry"
remaining "competitive," I'll let that be a concern when the
"industry" coughs up the rent money I won't have if I worry more about remaining "competitive" than I worry about getting a job. You want to
know a real definition of not remaining competitive? Being unable to
look for work because the internet access has been cut off for lack of
payment.



Where do you live that you consider $22 an hour poverty wages? Beverly Hills? It certainly won't pay for a house with a swimming pool but there have been many years I'd have cheerfully committed...if not murder, than at least some serious crime for a pay rate that high.



I've been either unemployed or ridiculously underemployed for more than
a year and a half, largely because I have been trying to resist the downward spiral of wages. I have used up my
unemployment benefits and burned through all the savings I had. I've
turned down jobs at $25 and $27 an hour because they were on 1099 or
because I thought the nature and scope of the work justified higher
rates. I finally took a job at $27 an hour because the unemployment was running out, and that job is now over. My last month in that job they limited me to less than 20 hours a week because the project went over schedule and the money was drying up. In the last 20 months I've had exactly one possibility that
offered more than $29 an hour, and I couldn't get that because I've never used
XMetal. And you want me to stand firm and demand $40 an hour so I can
help the "industry" remain "competitive?" If the "industry" wants me to make it even harder on myself to find work for its sake, then the "industry" can back me up in a meaningful way or it can take a hike.



Who said anything about offering to work for free? Where did you get that?



I know all the cant about how our work adds value to the company and
its products. Tell it to the places where I've been getting turned down
for jobs. They don't listen to me when I try to tell them. And if the
documenting work is for internal use, they won't care about any spiel
related to customers.



Specialization. Concentrating on a few limited types of work? In a down
market? The number of companies that may have need for a tech writer is
down, all the companies remaining in those fields are much smaller than
they were, lots of them are still downsizing, there are many more
people looking for fewer jobs, and you think in these circumstances it
makes sense to limit the number of fields in which I look for work?
That's like in the middle of a famine you decide to eat only one type
of vegetable.

Maybe you can afford your definition of "competitive." I can't.

End of rant. Down off soapboax. Everybody on the list have fun and I wish you good luck. Good night.


--- On Mon, 10/25/10, Tony Chung <> wrote:

From: Tony Chung <>
Subject: Re: Rates
To: "TECHWR-L"
Date: Monday, October 25, 2010, 8:21 PM

Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
for the entire industry to remain competitive. Employers will ask why
bother hiring a contractor at $40-100/hour when they can hire
experienced people for $20/hour?

As professionals we need to communicate a value that transcends cost.
Quality technical writing mitigates risk, reduces customer support
calls, and improves customer satisfaction with the company overall.
You can't justify working for free or cheap in the light of what you
offer the company.

For those who are looking for work, when the going gets tough, the
tough specialize. Are there areas in which you could specialize?
Subject matter expertise, production speed, understanding of
collaborative writing, multi-channel deliverables, multi-sourcing,
social media, documentation through the development process, training
materials development, business analysis, content strategy and
migration, programming, hardware testing ... any of these increase
your core value beyond the generalist fresh out of college.

For $18 to 22/hour, I could score a sweet government job in the typing
pool. The higher wages are for greater responsibility, for instance,
accounting or materials management. As a programming technical writer
I feel that I should be able to increase profits for the compan(ies)
that hire me more than enough to accommodate my desired wage.

-Tony
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) Tony Chung wrote:

"Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
for the entire industry to remain competitive. Employers will ask why
bother hiring a contractor at $40-100/hour when they can hire
experienced people for $20/hour?"

While I understand Mr Chung's thought process, I do not agree with it.

The OP needs income to maintain his life -- many of us have been there. I would suggest that he (the OP) negotiate a better rate, taking into account all the expenses noted in the many posts in this thread. Doubling what he called the "hourly rate" would be a good ballpark in which to start.

While I think we all owe ourselves, our clients, and our profession the best work we can deliver, suggesting that we are responsible to each other for the maintenance of a specific compensation level is, in my opinion, mistaken.

John Rosberg
Documentation and Training

2765 Deerfield Road
Riverwoods, IL 60015
847-502-1833




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) I agree with both positions to a degree. I took a "lowball" contract
between full-time jobs, and while it kept the lights on, it also ate
into other opportunities I was able to land at about twice (if not
more) the rate. It actually hindered me from taking on some of these
more substantial gigs.

If you feel you need to take a lowball offer to stay solvent, then by
all means do so. But, through experience (mine and that of those I
know) I can say that taking a lower wage just to stay afloat may not
always be the best option, and can create problems over time. Rather
than scratch at what you can get, it may (also) be a good time to
start thinking about what you want.

On a side note, a friend of mine had a very good paying engineering
job that he absolutely hated. He decided to save as much as possible
once the hint of layoffs started floating through the office. When he
was laid off, he took time to figure out exactly what to do, living
off unemployment and savings. He decided to switch gears completely
and intern, for free, at a brewery. He is now about to go to the
Siebel Institute of Technology for a formal degree in brewing science
on the remainder of his savings, and has decided to downscale his life
accordingly until he's up and running as a paid brewer. And, he's
never been happier.

On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 9:09 AM, john rosberg <> wrote:
>
> Tony Chung wrote:
>
> "Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
> accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
> for the entire industry to remain competitive. Employers will ask why
> bother hiring a contractor at $40-100/hour when they can hire
> experienced people for $20/hour?"
>
> While I understand Mr Chung's thought process, I do not agree with it.
>
> The OP needs income to maintain his life -- many of us have been there. I would suggest that he (the OP) negotiate a better rate, taking into account all the expenses noted in the many posts in this thread. Doubling what he called the "hourly rate" would be a good ballpark in which to start.
>
> While I think we all owe ourselves, our clients, and our profession the best work we can deliver, suggesting that we are responsible to each other for the maintenance of a specific compensation level is, in my opinion, mistaken.

--
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Twitter: @techcommdood
Blog: http://techcommdood.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
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) On 10/26/10, Porrello, Leonard <> wrote:
> Well said, Tony.


I guess not well enough, based on the collective disagreement.

All I meant to say was that the choice to accept an offer lower than
ideal depends on several factors, and should not be restricted to
"because I need work." I would hope that there would be other benefits
to offset the money.

I can think of cases where my relationship with the cmpany, belief in
the product or service, or the opportunity to develop new skills
trumped the money. Deborah's comment that techwr-l articles were
written on a shoestring describe opportunities for writers to gain
personal and professional recognition for their knowledge.

I've heard it said it's better to be famous than rich. Famous people
always find work, but rich people could spend
themselves dry.

-Tony
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) I don't see tech writers with gainful employment falling all over themselves
to contribute to a fund to help feed, house, clothe and pay doctor bills for
tech writers and their families if they altruistically choose to turn down
underemployment in hard times to serve the interests of "the entire
industry." In the absence of some equivalent of a union strike fund, people
need to make sure their own oxygen masks are in place before attempting to
assist others.

Gene Kim-Eng



On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Tony Chung <> wrote:

> Don't take this the wrong way, Keith, but that logic is flawed. To
> accept a poverty wage just because you need work makes it difficult
> for the entire industry to remain competitive.
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) I began work tonight at the 50/hour rate. Sent the electronically signed contract back. Thank you to all that provided advice and ideas re: how to proceed. Much appreciated.

One last thought before returning to lurk mode until I can offer advice that helps someone else as much as you all have helped me:
I was working on a revision to a manual at my new job. In one paragraph, there'd be two spaces after a period. In another place, I saw one. I asked my co-worker "one space or two after a period?" Reply: "One unless it looks funny, then use two."

ANON_TWER
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) > It would be a pretty poor rate in most CA urban areas.  But $22/hr works out to
> a little under $46,000, which just happens to be the average income for college
> graduates in the US (the average salary for tech writers nationwide is $52,000).

True, but that does assume full 40 hour weeks for 52 consecutive
weeks, which is doable (if they allow working through holidays or pay
for holidays despite you not being an employee), and does not account
for being in a different tax situation.

> If the OP has already left that $22/hr job (presumably for one that is better)
> and is contemplating doing this work for a couple of hours an evening, we're
> probably not talking about crawling into aircraft fuselages or documenting heavy
> equipment teardowns, and chasing down SMEs to drag knowlege out of their heads
> between 9:00 and 11:30 doesn't sound terribly practical either.  So ultimately
> the question remains how badly the extra money is needed and what the
> effort-to-money ratio is.  Even in CA, if someone wanted me to do some redline
> entry and editing/formatting a couple of hours a night for this rate 1099 and I
> didn't have anything better to do with my time I might just think about
> countering at $35/hr and see what happens.

The conversation (countering/bargaining) is worth having. Not
demanding, but talking it out.

I just re-read the original post, which was quite cryptic. The OP is
talking about this as a side gig, which would add 13 hours (an odd
figure) per week. At $22, that's an extra $286/week before any taxes
augmenting a full week's worth of salary from another job (40, perhaps
more, hours per week). Thus the 53 hour remark.

I think the tax advisor is over-estimating with the 50% savings for
taxes, but it's good to be cautious and pad the reserve. Still, given
having a full time job, you have to weigh your loss of 13 hours of
free time per week (about a full waking day of free time, more or
less) and decide if it's worth an extra $143 per week. Personally I'd
be hesitant to go for that ($11/hr net for each hour of my free time
given an existing full time job taking up 40 hours or more per week),
but if your situation calls for additional income, it might be worth
it to you.

--
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Twitter: @techcommdood
Blog: http://techcommdood.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
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) Yes, the OP left the company that was paying the $22/hr and now the company is
offering $22/hr 1099 for the side gig. With bennies coming from the new day
job, they're not an issue with this one, and I'm guessing that the work that
would be done at night is probably more like updating docs the OP made before
leaving rather than running new doc projects.

50% for taxes 1099 sounds like a safely conservative set-aside for fed and state
income tax plus SET added on top of another full time job. Some of it will end
up coming back at tax refund time, how much mostly dependent on how good a job
the OP does of identifying deductibles, but I'd rather have a refund coming at
tax time than have to write a check to the govt.

Gene Kim-Eng



----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Swallow" <>
I just re-read the original post, which was quite cryptic. The OP is
talking about this as a side gig, which would add 13 hours (an odd
figure) per week. At $22, that's an extra $286/week before any taxes
augmenting a full week's worth of salary from another job (40, perhaps
more, hours per week). Thus the 53 hour remark.

I think the tax advisor is over-estimating with the 50% savings for
taxes, but it's good to be cautious and pad the reserve.

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) That one's been around for a while...and reflects those of us who have
been around for a while.

I'm of the generation that was taught two spaces. Of course, I was
also taught on typewriters. As word processors became standard, the
rule changed to one.

How old was the co-worker you asked?

On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 11:57 PM, Anon TWer <> wrote:
>
> I began work tonight at the 50/hour rate. Sent the electronically signed contract back. Thank you to all that provided advice and ideas re: how to proceed. Much appreciated.
>
> One last thought before returning to lurk mode until I can offer advice that helps someone else as much as you all have helped me:
> I was working on a revision to a manual at my new job. In one paragraph, there'd be two spaces after a period. In another place, I saw one. I asked my co-worker "one space or two after a period?" Reply: "One unless it looks funny, then use two."
>
> ANON_TWER
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) > I was working on a revision to a manual at my new job. In one paragraph, there'd be two spaces after a period. In another place, I saw one. I asked my co-worker "one space or two after a period?" Reply: "One unless it looks funny, then use two."

That's hysterical. I wonder who's in charge of deciding when it 'looks funny"?

Char James-Tanny ~ JTF Associates, Inc. ~ http://www.helpstuff.com
----------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________

Posted on the TECHWR-L mailing list. Go to http://lists.techwr-l.com/mailman/listinfo/techwr-l to subscribe. I so agree with the sell-by date. Mine apparently expired many years
ago despite my technological aptitude. I am finding that companies are
hiring candidates fresh out of university and training them for the
job. These young ones will work long hours for dirt cheap wages. How
can you compete with that if you have 10 years experience doing that
job successfully and are a mature candidate?

On 27-Oct-10, at 2:23 AM, David Neeley wrote:

> One factor I am very surprised not to have seen thus far about taking
> a much lower hourly rate "to get by."
>
> How many job applications have you had where they request a salary
> history?
>
> Or, better--how many job applications have you seen where they do
> *not* ask for such a history?
>
> Taking a low rate to make ends meet may, in fact, constrain how much
> you may be offered for later gigs.
>
> Adding insult to injury--I cannot tell you how often I was told I was
> "overqualified" for a job I was applying for. Too many employers, not
> taking into account that you may have had to take a substantial cut to
> pay the bills, may wonder whether it was something the matter with
> you--despite the economy or other considerations.
>
> This may be especially true if you are nearing your "sell-by date"--if
> you are middle aged or even slightly beyond. Younger employers seem
> already to assume that older employees must have something wrong or
> *surely* are not up to date from a technical standpoint.
>
> Even in the best of times, these factors can greatly limit the choices
> someone may face.
>
> David
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) Very practical answer, Steve. Fixer. I might try that approach.

On 27-Oct-10, at 9:26 AM, Stephen Arrants wrote:

> Elaine Garnet writes:
>> I so agree with the sell-by date. Mine apparently expired many years
>> ago despite my technological aptitude. I am finding that companies
>> are
>> hiring candidates fresh out of university and training them for the
>> job. These young ones will work long hours for dirt cheap wages. How
>> can you compete with that if you have 10 years experience doing that
>> job successfully and are a mature candidate?
>
>
> [Stephen Arrants] I encountered this when I lived and worked in
> California. What I did was position/sell myself as a fixer. The
> company
> may have gotten a manual out of a "technical writer" for $13/hour, but
> after they either couldn't use it, couldn't understand it, or had a
> ginourmous increase in support calls they hired me. And I got more
> than
> $13 an hour.
>
> I've survived recessions, reorganization, downsizing, rightsizings,
> repositionings, and crashes. I still write. I still edit. I still
> provide UX consultations. If a low rate was all that was available, I
> took a job at WALMART or Wolff's coffee rather than work somewhere for
> just over minimum wage. That was my decision, I don't expect it to be
> yours. And I'm not going to tell you that you're denigrating the
> "profession" or hurting anyone. You do what you need to do to survive
> another day.
>
>
> Steve Arrants

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)